Purchasing Monkey and General Remarks.

Monkey Archive Forums/Digital Discussion/Purchasing Monkey and General Remarks.

hardcoal(Posted 2011) [#1]
I think its not right to supply monkey without a better Script Editor.
You pay enough money to receive a good Editor as well and not this old refined blitzmax Editor.
Also when you press build you must always choose the compile.
Whats so hard to make a tick box that will say 'Use this as default' for your preferred compiler.

Also no presets for prefferd styles.

The editor is kept simple so you will be forced to buy and editor as well..

Besides all that, Jungle editor is too expensive.

Take IDEAL editor and learn for to make a really good editor.
I wish someone would continue Ideal and make it suitable for Monkey
etc...

I am a Blitz3d programmer and I havenít seen any mention of Monkey on the Blitz website. I just came across monkey by chance.
I was waiting for a blitzmax to have Android compiler.


therevills(Posted 2011) [#2]
Sorry to say but yeah Monk is really bad...

You know that there is a free/lite version of JungleIDE?

http://www.jungleide.com/?page_id=382

Monkey has a sub-forum on the Blitz website:

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/topics.php?forum=201


hardcoal(Posted 2011) [#3]
Jungle lite is limited to 30 days.
Besides, why not implant into blides editor the monkey laungauge
To those who allready bought blide?


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#4]
ROFL. Priceless.


matt(Posted 2011) [#5]
I provide free add-ons for third-party text editors to enable monkey support

Textmate (Mac), E! editor (Windows)
http://monkeycoder.co.nz/Community/posts.php?topic=69

Sublime Text 2 (Mac, Windows, Linux)
http://monkeycoder.co.nz/Community/posts.php?topic=593

The topic on blitz website that mentions this:
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=94778


xzess(Posted 2011) [#6]
In my opinion the price is fair.
And yes monk ide is bad, but monkey itself is great.

Think about that you need just one product to develop and you get your money with your first releases.
In my eyes Monkey stands for money
Spread it in the markets, collect your money.

"Besides all that, Jungle editor is too expensive."
So this won't be a problem if you are serious

Greetz


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#7]
So why is Monk bad? Obviously I don't see it that way.


therevills(Posted 2011) [#8]
Jungle lite is limited to 30 days.


I think you've read it wrong. Jungle Lite is unlimted, what happens is that you get the Full version for 30 days then it turns into the lite verison.

So why is Monk bad?


Where too start....?

Just a few things:

1. It was quickly put together from the BlitzMaxIDE, which isnt the best IDE in the world.
2. No auto-complete or intellisense - a must for OO languages these days
3. Simple things like hardcoal has stated - default compiler etc


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#9]
1. I don't see the BlitzMaxIDE as so bad. I don't need Code folding for an example. Plus Monk runs and looks the same on both platforms. AND, you can extend it yourself because the source is provided.

2. Auto-Complete is the most difficult feature to implement. You need a code parser similar to the parser of Trans to get it right. I think the ones who got it right are the DELPHI ones. Besides that you can easily run into patent issues from Microsoft. They have patened that Intellisense feature somehow. I would be carefull implementing it if I would run a commercial project like Monkey.

3. Sure, nice to have but at the same time I don't see it as a dealbreaker.

4. I am happy that there is a decent and default editor on both platforms. JungleIDE is not cross platform. BLIDE isn't. Protean isn't. So asking why they are not the default IDE's is pointless. When you look at other projects, most of them don't ship with one at all.

Unity3D - basic text editor
Torque - No text editor
Corona - No text editor
AGK - Will get its own editor, no info public about it
GameMaker - Very basic script editor build in
SiO - No text editor
Cocos2D - No text editor

I think we have it good in that area.


hardcoal(Posted 2011) [#10]
I have no doubt that if one is serious he make good money from monkey and thats why i bought it.
I have great value for marks work.
Atm i cant allow my self another purchess like an editor


therevills(Posted 2011) [#11]
I've been spoilt with using Eclipse for years...

@hardcoal - you dont have to purchase Jungle...

This demo works for 30 days and, after this period, the demo will self-convert to Jungle Lite, that is a free, smaller and limited version of Jungle Ide



hardcoal(Posted 2011) [#12]
nm


debug(Posted 2011) [#13]
just so it doesn't get misinterpreted or otherwise misunderstood, from what I have read, Jungle IDE Lite cannot be used for commercial projects...


degac(Posted 2011) [#14]
@debug: I think too - from what I'm reading - JungleIDE lite cannot be used for commercial projects...

I've tried to change MonkIDE/BlitzMaxIDE, but I give'up: I need to rewrite completely the code-scanner/intellisense to support properly Monkey syntax - and to be honest I'dont know if it worth the efforts.
The only thinghs I like in my 'interpretation' is the 'template support' and some personalization for web-browser (for HTML5/Flash). I had many others idea to put it...

Another idea/plan was to re-write the IDE completely to support wxMax... but still I need to implement some intellisense interface.


slenkar(Posted 2011) [#15]
Monk isnt that bad really


DGuy(Posted 2011) [#16]
TextMate + Matts' add-ons = Monkey Coding Bliss! :D


therevills(Posted 2011) [#17]
Yes - JungleIDE lite cannot be used for commerical projects - but it doesnt stop you developing your project on there, then when you are ready to sell, buy the full version.

So ask yourself: How long away is your full commerical project and are you actualling going to sell it?

Remember if you are planning on releasing on Android it'll cost you $25 and if you are selling on iOS it'll cost you $100 p/a. Also MS charges you for releasing XNA stuff too.


matt(Posted 2011) [#18]
@DGuy please do let me know if there's anything else you'd like to see in the TextMate bundle!


Dima(Posted 2011) [#19]
By the time you guys find a nice IDE my game will be released already :P


anawiki(Posted 2011) [#20]
Monk is good enough. I prefer it over Jungle IDE. I just can't stand any editor that doesn't restore focus to the code after alt tab. So yeah, you are free to complain about Monk, but you could as well be coding your project.


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#21]
Amen :-)


therevills(Posted 2011) [#22]
I just can't stand any editor that doesn't restore focus to the code after alt tab


I've just tested this and it works fine:

1. In Jungle, type a few commands
2. Alt tab to IE browse around
3. Alt tab back to Jungle and continue typing

If you do find a bug raise it on the Jungle forum, Ziggy fixes them pretty quick.

you are free to complain

This is what we do best ;)


impixi(Posted 2011) [#23]
Another vote for Monk. I prefer relatively simple development environments. Heavy duty IDEs, like Eclipse, Blide and Jungle, which I've tried to 'migrate' to several times, get in my way.


slenkar(Posted 2011) [#24]
how is jungle better than Monk?
(except intellisense and not having to press 2 buttons to compile)


muddy_shoes(Posted 2011) [#25]
For me I use Jungle mostly for the more fully-featured layout manager, with the ability to move and split views etc. Jump to definition is another big plus and while I'm not a big user of folding, it's nice to have.

On the other hand, Jungle Lite loses points against Monk because of its thirty file limit on projects and the fact that it simply won't navigate to a file outside of the project if it isn't already open. So, jump to definition and even simply jumping to the position of a compilation failure doesn't work when I'm working on stuff like the Box2D port.

To be honest, I switch back and forth and often have notepad++ and GrepWin open at the same time to try to approximate the capabilities of a fuller IDE. The biggest features I miss from the likes of Eclipse are tools for handling larger codebases like "Find all references", a code beautifier, macros/templates and really basic refactoring tools -- specifically rename.


ziggy(Posted 2011) [#26]
Just to answer some things:
Jungle lite is limited to 30 days.

That's not true. you can use Jungle Lite for free, for ever. No restrictions other than no comercial or shareware development is allowed. If you're going to make money using Jungle, you're required to get a complete commercial version. (I have a life and I have to pay bills too).

Besides, why not implant into blides editor the monkey laungauge
To those who allready bought blide?

There are several reasons to do this. First of all, BLIde can't work withot BlitzMax. Additionally, BLIde was developed without multithreading in mind and, while this has been improved in current BLIde version, JungleIde has been redesigned from scratch to perform a lot faster.

Also resources management on Jungle Ide is done in a very different way, so Jungle Ide has a smaller memory footprint.

All the internal APIs using on Jungle Ide, are new. Both BLIde and Jungle are based in the same low-level framework (CK IDE Framework) BUT Jungle Ide implements internally a threaded-module system (a sort of actors based system) that loads only the parts of the IDE you're using, on request, very quickly. All in all, it would be much more sensible to port gradually BLIde to the JungleIde framework than the other way round.

We've not seen all the Jungle Ide potential yet. But there are several thing to come soon.

Yes - JungleIDE lite cannot be used for commerical projects - but it doesnt stop you developing your project on there, then when you are ready to sell, buy the full version.
Yes, that's correct and lots of people have done it this way with BLIde.

I just can't stand any editor that doesn't restore focus to the code after alt tab.
Me too. Jungle does restore the focus properly.

All in all, if you haven't tried Jungle Ide yet, do it. You can try it for free and decide later wheter you like it or not. IDEs are a very personal choice, some like it automated, some preffer a NotePad-esque editors. Each to their own.

you can get the free demo + LITE version here: http://www.jungleide.com/?page_id=375


matty(Posted 2011) [#27]
Slightly off topic but it fits with the thread title:

Monkey sells for $120 US then why did I have to put $124 AUD when the Australian dollar is doing better than the USD for quite some time now?
It's only $4 so I'm not complaining but I thought it was rather odd that the USD:AUD conversion rate was wrong....we've been over $1 USD:$1 AUD for quite some time now...


Gerry Quinn(Posted 2011) [#28]
I don't mind the IDE so much, although that extra click to select a target annoys me more than it should (in a world where the Android emulator takes minutes to start, a single extra click is not really slowing me down). I can live without Intellisense. Eventually my brain will learn to type "local x:int" instead of "int x". Fixing one syntax error at a time is a pain, but again I don't think it really slows my progress all that much.

But I really really would like if it took me to the line of code and showed at least local variables when it crashes!

[Another mild IDE annoyance - I want a direct way to close a tab from a context menu or an x on the tab.)


JD0(Posted 2011) [#29]
As Mike Hart said most of these frameworks do not come with a good ide -- Blitz may be the best of them.

There is support for some free editors such as Notepad++ available (search the forum).

Tried Jungle.. to be honest didn't like it much as for me it was too heavy (not just the price), but you might like it.

I'd rather use Notepad++.

Sublime Text 2 is available in a public Alpha and I've heard that's great.


matt(Posted 2011) [#30]
Just to reiterate that my bundle for Sublime Text 2 is linked in post #5


FlameDuck(Posted 2011) [#31]
I don't see the BlitzMaxIDE as so bad.
Really? Have you *tried* any others? At all?

Plus Monk runs and looks the same on both platforms. AND, you can extend it yourself because the source is provided.
TBH I think most people bought monkey because they wanted to make "write once, run anywhere" games. Not improve the toolset.

Auto-Complete is the most difficult feature to implement.
This is not even remotely true. Refactoring, Code inspection, Version control, all things BlitzMAX/Monkey IDE's seriously lack, that most competitively priced products have, and all of which are significantly more complex than auto-completion.

You need a code parser similar to the parser of Trans to get it right.
Which is a trivial matter, because there are dozens of programs (like ANTLR for instance) that can generate one for you!

When you look at other projects, most of them don't ship with one at all.
Which would be relevant if "other projects" needed to ship with one. Torque for instance works with pretty much any regular C IDE (CodeWarrior 5 in my case, and despite being more than 10 years old, is still better than Monk). Panda3D and jPCT both work fine with IntelliJ, Panda3D even works with PyCharm. Monkey however doesn't work out-of-the-box with any IDE's because a formal language description is not available.

I've been spoilt with using Eclipse for years...
Being more productive, and being spoilt are not the same things.

Monk isnt that bad really
Yes. It really is. It is so much worse that there are free editors (like Notepad++) which are better.

By the time you guys find a nice IDE my game will be released already :P
I found a nice IDE. How's the game of yours going?

As Mike Hart said most of these frameworks do not come with a good ide -- Blitz may be the best of them.
Repeating a non-sequitur does not make it more valid, all the other frameworks work with ridiculously good existing 3rd party IDE's, thus there is no reason they should ship with their own bloody IDE. Monkey doesn't work with any of the most popular IDE's (Visual Studio, Eclipse, IntelliJ, NetBeans, C++Builder).


ziggy(Posted 2011) [#32]
Auto-Complete is the most difficult feature to implement.

This is not even remotely true. Refactoring, Code inspection, Version control, all things BlitzMAX/Monkey IDE's seriously lack, that most competitively priced products have, and all of which are significantly more complex than auto-completion.


IMHO, both of you are correct at some extent.

Refactoring and Code inspection are, as complex code completion, the result of a complete and exact abstract syntax tree representation of the source code. Having a complete contex-based code completion is not more complicated than Reflection. Both are more or less two sides of the same coin. Also, code inspection can be derived from the complete context-based AST.
The real difference on implementation complexity is that you can provide several levels of code completion even with a not complete context based abstract syntax tree, while you can't provide any reliable refactoring in this scenario.

In Jungle Ide, I'm still working in the complete AST as I'm really willing to add refactoring to Jungle Ide Monkey parser, but it's very complicated as the language evolves. The newly added Alias keyword is not yet supported and will force a two-pases lexing of the language. Also the addition of interfaces have been a big change in the language processors, etc.


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#33]
Really? Have you *tried* any others? At all?


No, of course not. ROFL. Just kidding. I just don't need a lot of the feature you seem not be be to get anything done without them.

TBH I think most people bought monkey because they wanted to make "write once, run anywhere" games. Not improve the toolset.


So you tried the demo, tried Monk, knew that there are features missing. You knew that there is no support for your glorious 3rd party IDE's and you still bought it? Good choice then.

Monkey however doesn't work out-of-the-box with any IDE's because a formal language description is not available.


Good one. I am still laughting. And please, show me the links to the formal language descriptions and support files provided by the creators of Corona, or Torque for an example. Not the ones, that were provided by 3rd parties.

Monkey doesn't work with any of the most popular IDE's (Visual Studio, Eclipse, IntelliJ, NetBeans, C++Builder).


Guess what, because no one found time to create support files for them. But I am sure you can lead the way. I will give you thumbs up if you do.


muddy_shoes(Posted 2011) [#34]
Not to get in the way of a good bun-fight but FlameDuck wrote:

I found a nice IDE.


Any chance you could say which IDE this was and why you like it for Monkey?


JD0(Posted 2011) [#35]
w/e. not worth the time arguing about it since we all want Monkey to get better.. Monkey needs a lot of work - no question about that.

Does look like from this thread that most believe an IDE is of a lower priority.


FlameDuck(Posted 2011) [#36]
You knew that there is no support for your glorious 3rd party IDE's and you still bought it?
Yes. I also bought JungleIDE even though I knew that so far it falls way short of what I want. You want to know why? Because without support and feedback from customers, products don't evolve.

Good choice then.
Thank you. It's what proper developers do when new technology arrives. Evaluate it to see if it meets their criterion. As it turns out, Monkey is good technology tied down by having an IDE from the 1990's, and frankly the benefits of Monkey (simple language, write once, run anywhere) do not outweigh the productivity loss of even simple things like, having to compile to find out if your code is valid syntax.

And please, show me the links to the formal language descriptions and support files provided by the creators of Corona, or Torque for an example.
I don't know what Corona is, nor do I particularly care. Torque uses C, so a formal language description has been available since before Torque even existed.

But I am sure you can lead the way. I will give you thumbs up if you do.
If I had the time to develop and support a language plug-in for IntelliJ I most certainly would. As it turns out, between my real job and my game development hobby there really isn't time to also fix all the things broken with Monk. Particularly since I already have a functioning alternative.

As it is I'm hoping ziggy eventually delivers the goods (because for some reason unfathomable to me, he actually enjoys it), at which time I will re-evaluate Monkey and determine whether or not porting the game from Panda3D and Python is a valid business strategy.

Any chance you could say which IDE this was and why you like it for Monkey?
Oh, I'm sorry if I wasn't entirely clear on that. The IDE I found was IntelliJ, but I don't use it for Monkey. I use it for Python with Panda3D and Java with jPCT-AE. Sorry about not being clear on that. Sure Panda3D doesn't have nearly the same amount of target platforms as Monkey, and maintaining a Java/jPCT-AE version for Android devices is a major PITA. But it's less of a pain than using Monkey IMHO.

Does look like from this thread that most believe an IDE is of a lower priority.
Maybe once a large media conglomerate like Disney gets behind Monkey, or someone manages to write something like "Pirates of the Caribbean: Online", their opinions will be valid.


ziggy(Posted 2011) [#37]
Because without support and feedback from customers, products don't evolve.
That's true. There have been more than 100 fixed bugs and improvements in the 3 months Jungle Ide has been released. Most of them as the resoult of users interaction.

As it is I'm hoping ziggy eventually delivers the goods (because for some reason unfathomable to me, he actually enjoys it)

Yes, I enjoy it! A lot! The whole code analyzer is like a huge sudoku, like a something "to be solved"


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#38]
To bad Jungle is Windows only.


matt(Posted 2011) [#39]
What platform are you Mike?

If you're Mac-based, I'm investigating a monkey plugin for Xcode, and I have already created plugin bundles for TextMate and Sublime Text 2.


Jesse(Posted 2011) [#40]
that would be awesome for me too matt.


matt(Posted 2011) [#41]
TextMate is a really good solution for now.

Should have free time towards the end of the week to start the Xcode plugin.


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#42]
Yes i am osx based.


ziggy(Posted 2011) [#43]
for those reading all this, and regarding Jungle Lite version (the free one) I've increases the Jungle Lite solution files limit to 60 source code files per solution, instead of the current 30 files limit.


Shinkiro1(Posted 2011) [#44]
Another OSX user here.
A XCode plugin would be awesome (I'am currently trying getting used to Textmate(trial) or Sublime Text 2). These 2 aren't bad but the missing thing for me is code completition while I'm typing (gedit has such a plugin).

With completition I don't mean real intellisense, just suggestions from the current document. Has either one of the 2 has such a plugin?


matt(Posted 2011) [#45]
Both TextMate and Sublime Text 2 already support this sort of thing as standard, and it's enhanced by my plugins. It just requires a little bit of user interaction rather than being fully automatic like in some other editors.

I refer to it in the documentation for the plugins, but read on...

Sublime Text 2:
1. Type some characters, then press Tab to expand to the first match.
2. Press Control+Space to get a menu of matches similar to Intellisense.

TextMate:
1. Type some characters, then repeated presses of Escape will cycle through matches. Shift+Escape goes backwards through matches.
http://manual.macromates.com/en/working_with_text#completion
2. Press Option+Escape to get a menu of matches similar to Intellisense.

edit: #2 TextMate feature just this minute added! Download latest version of bundle from GitHub.

Any help with these bundles is appreciated. One user has helped so far with adding new features.


Dabz(Posted 2011) [#46]
I once added a simple bit of intellisense to MaxIDE ages ago, I think therevills was one of a few that tested it for me... But the problem is, MaxGUI smells a bit, and made the whole process of implementing it a bit clunky.

I also wrote an web editor once called Sanitary Pad (Anyone remember that, lol)!

Even though Ziggy's work is extremely awesome, I do feel sometimes BRL's newest language additions really do miss out because there isnt an IDE that's cross platform and up to the job of Ziggy's fine IDE.

*hint hint Mr Zigmeister* :P

Dabz


GfK(Posted 2011) [#47]
I cannot code without intellisense. Small bits of test code, fair enough. Whole projects? No thanks.

I'm sticking to PC development until Ziggy gets his finger out and makes an IDE for MacOS.


Neuro(Posted 2011) [#48]
I cannot code without intellisense


Wow, i still remember when there was no such thing as intellisense on any editor or IDE for any coding language :) (turbo pascal 5.0!!).


NoOdle(Posted 2011) [#49]
No offence to hardcoal... but for the money, what other language can you compile the same source and get multiple platform support?!

Monkey is a wonderful thing and as for intellisense.... as Neuro points out, its a modern day luxury... you should think of Monk IDE as brain training! ;)


Neuro(Posted 2011) [#50]
No offence to hardcoal... but for the money, what other language can you compile the same source and get multiple platform support?!

Haxe does it also apparently, haven't tried it though. GLBasic does it, and i hear some upcoming thing called "App Game Kit" that does something similar too :).


MikeHart(Posted 2011) [#51]
GlBasic's IDE... no intellisense, at least a year ago. There seems to be not even an OSX IDE officially available.


FlameDuck(Posted 2011) [#52]
Wow, i still remember when there was no such thing as intellisense on any editor or IDE for any coding language :) (turbo pascal 5.0!!).
As do I. I remember Asm-One, and I reject the idea that working in either Asm-One or Turbo Pascal 5, was in any way or form more productive than working in a more modern tool.

Monkey is a wonderful thing and as for intellisense.... as Neuro points out, its a modern day luxury...
A modern day luxury that your competitors embrace, which means right from the start you're lagging behind the competition, who are more productive than you. If you think you can compete (never mind win) on the App Store or on Android Market, when you're the only one running a three-legged-race, you're wrong.

you should think of Monk IDE as brain training! ;)
If I wanted brain training, I would be playing some Big Brain Academy on the DS instead of writing code in Monkey. Cheaper too.

No offence to hardcoal... but for the money, what other language can you compile the same source and get multiple platform support?!
For less money (that is completely free) you can get something like PhoneGap or Titanium, and use it with your favourite IDE (Eclipse for example), and get access to a wider array of functionality (XML, webservices and hardware features for example), and without having to learn a new language.

So despite your insincere statement about not wanting to cause offence, the answer to your question is "there is at least one". Cherry picking products that are worse than Monkey, doesn't make Monkey look better, it makes you look ignorant.