Want to resurrect Blitz or a Blitz-like product?
Community Forums/Technical Discourse/Want to resurrect Blitz or a Blitz-like product?
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| I have all the business stuff set up to easily pay at least one developer full-time for a year to work on BlitzMax or a Blitz-like product. Any devs interested in working on something like this? I'll be the business side of it and you handle the tech. |
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| What do you have in mind? If the project is right I am interested... Do you want to enhance a Blitz Tool or do you want something made in Blitz? I have 2 of the best gfx artist at my disposal so maybe a game? |
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| I want a programming language with the design philosophy and advantages of BMX, for games and applications. Do you know how to write a compiler or translator? |
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| Yes, I did this a long time ago and I understand how to do it ( for fun ) but is there a way to make money with this? And if you need a compiler or translator I think Mark is king! |
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| What exactly is blitzmax lacking so much that it needs a re-write? A large part of a languages usefulness comes from the size of it's community. creating a new or derivative language is starting from zero. |
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| What exactly is blitzmax lacking so much that it needs a re-write? 64-bit support. Yes, I did this a long time ago and I understand how to do it ( for fun ) but is there a way to make money with this? Yes, that is not a problem for me to do. And if you need a compiler or translator I think Mark is king! I already asked and offered to help for free. He is not interested. |
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| What's wrong with bmx-NG? it does 64bit just fine. If you rewrote the code generator for blitzmax from scratch, it would still end up looking like Blitzmax-NG anyway. You'll never beat the quality of gcc/llvm doing it by hand. |
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| To bad he doesn't like you. Did he say this this? Anyway, there is also Monkey 2. Maybe invest by becoming a patreon? If you still want hire someone for such a thing, please tell is what feature this new translator or compiler must have. 2d, 3d, platforms etc... |
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| Anyway, there is also Monkey 2. Maybe invest by becoming a patreon? Monkey 2 is not useful to me. What's wrong with bmx-NG? it does 64bit just fine. So far I have found that NG does not import VS libs. I reported it and will see what Bruce says about it. That was the point where I got stuck trying to compile my project and I haven't made any progress since. BMXNG would be a good candidate to commercialize but I don't get the feeling any BRL people are interested. If I am wrong they are free to contact me. |
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| > BMXNG would be a good candidate to commercialize but I don't get the feeling any BRL people are interested. If I am wrong they are free to contact me. What has the maintaining/development of NG to do with "any BRL people"? as NG is "free as in speech" and "free as beer", you might even use it as a base to evolve into something else - or to rewrite things with LLVM/whatever-tool-chain. Of course the end is just a language - which modules need to boost into a "game dev package". Nonetheless: If you are doing a "bmx compatible" thing I would enjoy seeing a good cross-platform IDE (wont pay for one but help in bugfixing for free). But maybe IntelliJ would be the better alternative as an IDE. bye Ron |
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| I don't need a bunch of angry people who don't understand what surrendering ownership of code means to be harassing me in the news and on review sites. So I am proposing this openly to the community and looking to see if there is any serious interest. You all know if I put BMXNG or some variant on Steam without Bruce's cooperation I would be called a thief and con artist once it started making money, even if it is within the terms of the license. |
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| NG does not import VS libs There's always dynamic linking. I don't get the feeling any BRL people are interested As far as I understand, Bmax-NG is not affiliated with BRL at all. It's Brucey's creation, and likely the future of Bmax. |
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| > You all know if I put BMXNG on Steam without Bruce's cooperation I would be called a thief and con artist once it started making money. But it won't be forbidden - as long as you follow the rules of the licence. NG is FOSS - and BRL-modules are the very same. PUB is a different story (but should be all FOSS too). A language should imho always be "free" (not just the syntax, but also the implementation) as this is the only way to breathe life into it (to have economic creations foundate on the language). bye Ron |
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| I would enjoy seeing a good cross-platform IDE Hmmm, what is a good IDE and can it be based on MaxIDE ? -Henri |
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| Nothing wrong with sampling the sentiment of the community. I'm just a bit confused about the reasoning. Vanilla bmax works great. Bmax-NG works great too. What is the niche of a third blitzmax? If bmax has more commercial quality mods and tools, then the language, the community and the tool/mod all benefit. I think everyone is interested the language/community/tools moving into the future with some strength. |
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| MaxIDE uses a custom text area and custom undo - undo does not work here on my linux/windows boxes. In very many cases the "redo" is putting text into wrong lines, the undo removes from wrong ones ...etc. Then it is not that easily to extend for new functionalities (map editor, property editor, quick sprite previews...). For linux fltk is used and does not "theme" so it looks like a windows 3.11 application. I use MaxIDE just for the integrated debugger. All the normal coding is done in my default text editor (Geany) with added BlitzMax-support (syntax highlighting, compiler buttons, target option choice etc.). A more advanced IDE should be extendable (continued from above) because it allows for custom target-specific modules (android project configuration assistant and the likes). Sorry for derailing - maybe it could be used as a "ideas for the ressurected blitz product-IDE". Edit: @ benefit for users You could attract a bunch by giving them access to an easy-to-use but extendible 3d engine (so something like blitz3d or minib3d/openb3d) with some good backend (dynamic lights, shadows ...). This of course cross-platform ("you never know when you might need it"). People use BMax to "tinker", to "prototype" and at the end finishing their work there too, because they want to do something new. They are not the professionals needing SDKs, documentation etc. They want a community answering their questions, they want dozens of examples to "copy snippets" from (you know, your very first pong is often copied from somewhere, and then adjusted to your needs to learn the language). bye Ron |
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| Vanilla bmax works great. Bmax-NG works great too. What is the niche of a third blitzmax? I guess what I am saying is I have the means to bring in a lot of sales and I am looking to see if the appropriate product exists. I have a monopoly locked in for programming languages on Steam. It would be a shame to let that go to waste. I also have three years of experience with sales on Steam, and my own technologies I can build into the IDE, like the ability for users to sell their own mods directly on Steam and receive payment from Valve (no Greenlight). I have the ability to completely turn Blitz around. So I am just throwing that out there. If Simon, Bruce, or whoever is interested, or if someone is making a new product, they should talk to me. |
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| I have a monopoly locked in for programming languages on Steam. It would be a shame to let that go to waste. Translation: i have abandoned the BlitzMax community already by failing to provide support beyond Leadwerks2, and now that I have made a ton of money on Steam, I would like to come back and lead every one up the same garden path (only different). |
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| Josh, your poor track record continues with the fact you spout shit about superior gtk2 maxgui drivers and then fail to deliver in any meaningful way whatsoever. |
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| Leadwerks poor service to this community should be a bannable offence. It isn't. |
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| Translation: i have abandoned the BlitzMax community already by failing to provide support beyond Leadwerks2 Leadwerks 3 was released in 2013: http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/blog/41/entry-1010-leadwerks-3-begins-closed-beta-test/ And the oldest Monkey posts are from six years ago, in 2010: http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=93991 So not supporting BlitzMax in Leadwerks 3 at that point was a very smart decision. you spout shit about superior gtk2 maxgui drivers and then fail to deliver in any meaningful way whatsoever. I do not remember any conversation about this. I have found Bruce's GTK2 driver to be much better than FLTK, but in the end they both have a lot of problems and I am working to totally replace them with my own custom GUI. The problems are more an issue of the underlying library used, not the modules themselves. |
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| JoshK, Building something similar to Blitz3D is exactly what I am aiming to do with OpenB3D: in my opinion, the best feature of Blitz3D is the easy access to 3d graphic functions, not the language itself (although I loved how immediate is to use linked lists in Blitz3D). With OpenB3D I hope to have the same features on many languages, from Python to C/C++: so, a beginner could learn to program in 3D in Python, or FreeBasic, or BlitzMax, and eventually switch to C++ if he needs a faster language, still being able to use the same command set. And OpenB3D is free software, under LGPL license, so it can be used in commercial projects (but if it's used in a development tool, its source must be kept available) |
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| That looks like it would make a good option for a 3D module. What if you had the ability to sell that module, through a module browser built into the IDE? Is that something you would be interested in? |
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| So not supporting BlitzMax in Leadwerks 3 at that point was a very smart decision. How do you know that? Supporting BlitzMax use may have resulted in someone publishing something substantial in your engine rather than what seems to be output of non talented retirees that you have monetised to date. Until you have a hit game in your game engine I give it 0 stars, |
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| Supporting BlitzMax use may have resulted in someone publishing something substantial in your engine rather than what seems to be a geriatric 65 yo+ market you have monetised to date. Hahaha, I love the games my users make. I play them on my Steam Machine with a controller on a projector, so the picture is ten feet wide. How do you know that? Because BRL had moved onto Monkey and I knew the community would only get smaller at that point. I considered integrating Monkey support but the lack of function pointers made that impossible. I do not understand why you seem angry at me. I like BlitzMax and I think you are cool. |
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| Oh. OK. I can dig that. It is not so much anger as shock. You give nothing back - but post here as though you have continued to involve yourself in this community since your Halo days. and we should all help you monetise something which is not yours? |
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| Please keep in mind I have been on this forum since I was a teenager. :) You give nothing back I paid for BMX, and I put $500-600 into Monkey 2 until it became apparent it wasn't what I needed. we should all help you monetise something which is not yours. Yes, you should consider it. I have provided a pretty certain path to success that I've already proven with my own products. I have an obvious stake in the continued development of BlitzMax so I don't really need compensation if you can take over the stuff you would have to do to keep sales running. Fortunately, I have trial-and-errored all this over the last few years and I can teach you everything I know to get the most out of sales. I know for a fact you could easily double the size of this community in 12 months. |
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| Module browser? How would it work? A formula that could work is having it with dual licensing, perhaps: one version is free, but all games made with it must be released for free, for example using a GPL license, and one for a price, that allows to sell the games made with it |
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| Module browser? How would it work? Trust me, it works. I've been working on this system with Valve for two years. I use it in Leadwerks for selling 3D models but it is very low-level and flexible. In the IDE, it would just be a list of available modules you can install or uninstall. They can be free or paid, and the author gets paid automatically by Valve. |
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| How would it integrate in leadwerks? And which programming language would be used to access it? Lua? |
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| This has nothing to do with Leadwerks. The module browser would be integrated into the BMX IDE. |
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| @Skidracer I just noticed some 'light' angry posts... but you should consider - Leadwerks has is own community (different user than BRL) - Leadwerks is already on Steam - Leadwerks has some (different) experience in marketing its own products/services With these points a 'collaboration' (you should speak to define it better) could expand to other users (from Leadwerks) the BRL userbase/products and help to implement (for both) new products or services. Say 'no' before starts it's quite stupid (no offense intended) Skid, in the last weeks (and currently) you did an effort to make this current site a lot 'modern' and up-to-date (my compliments). I think - after a long breath :P - you should consider/evaluate the JoshK proposal (not to 'create a new BlitzMax version', but maybe just to diffuse/improve the current one. I'm quite sure that ignoring JoshK doesn't mean that something will happen or not - so it's better to have a chance and 'have a try'. @JoshK: I'm quite sure Monkey2 has function pointer support (plus many other interesting things - lambda, operator overloading)... the 'last' magic of Mark is a sort of 'automatic wrapper-sort-of' to allow an easy C porting/embedding... so maybe you could evaluate it for your 3d engine (there's nothing at the moment). |
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| so many languages... Why can't we all have ONE language and stop all the bickering! Constructive arguments are one thing but petty arguments destroy creativity and progression. I would conduct mass market research in to what developers actually want in a language first, a language to beat all others. Complexity through Simplicity! |
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| Why can't we all have ONE language and stop all the bickering! That's why: https://xkcd.com/927/ |
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| "Resurrecting" BlitzMax in particular seems like a fine idea. Alhough not dead it does need to move into the 64-bit era. When BlitzMax was being developed I thought the module system was the best thing about it. I imagined a thriving aftermarket. That never even got started. Blitz3D and BlitzMax both deserved to be far more popular. |
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| lol. The module browser way works well for Unity apparently, combined with paid licenses for when a game actually makes money over a certain threshold. I would prefer a Blitz3d+Max x64 like language with physx, multiplayer networking, object oriented design (and perhaps multiplatform)over Unity anytime though, simply because I literally hate abstract syntaxes(I'm more an artist than a brilliant coder). I would think that with the increase in computational power last 20 years a higher level computer language ideally should almost read as English, with optional lower level fallback features. But contrary to this things seem to be going backwards. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for it doesn't matter to a compiler if you write in humanly readable commands or abstract symbols that you have to memorize and convert in your head in order to be able to read back what the program actually is doing. But I believe computers should adapt to humans, to make our lives better, NOT the other way round. No offence, but IMHO it's just for people who are obsessed with math, want to be overly cryptic, mythical, act interesting(as in like see what I can do) or so that their bosses literally don't have a clue about what they are doing, making themselves indispensable and high salary worthy, just like most people in ICT are keeping themselves busy/paid with 70% of absolute nonsense. (just an opinion, don't put me on the stake). ;-) Blitz3d DID once have the edge. It only lacked a few features and wasn't updated in time. I hope Monkey2 will be 'The One' but I fear it won't be offering much that the likes of Unity and others don't already.(please correct me if I'm wrong, I really hope to be as a Blitz fan). I'm pretty sure this will all change in future, making programming (not: coding) available for the masses, but unfortunately it currently doesn't exists or at least not to my taste or powerful enough. So seems to me there's a real niche here waiting to be filled and ready to be capitalized by a real innovator and visionary, it being from the Blitz community or elsewhere. |
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| But I believe computers should adapt to humans, to make our lives better, NOT the other way round. I totally agree, and that's why i even modified some functions names of Blitz3d so that they follow the logic of the english language as much as possible, basically all can be summed up by something like : program reads state/properties of entity/component/value program modifies/writes state/properties of entity/component/value and just to troll a little : i bet that even if you would have all the functionalities you asked in post#36, you will do nothing impressive with it ! I have read similar posts a hundred times, people want all kinds of functionalities/effects but they don't even understand the basics. ;) Meanwhile video games like Tank Universal 1 or Tecno the base or Venus hostage or Stranded 2 or Ranger are better than many games made with Unity or Unreal that we can see on steam. All made with Blitz3d... So who is really limited ? The language/graphicsengine or the creator of the game ? Not to mention all the great video games made on old consoles or on DOS/oldWindows which can be reproduced in Blitz3d but nobody does it... Why ? |
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| In my opinion, BlitzMax has the same issue of FreeBasic: it is good for people who come from Blitz3D (just like FreeBasic is good for people who come from QBasic), but not for people who start from scratch (while both QBasic, or Blitz3D, were more beginner-friendly). With Blitz3D, you open the IDE, you type two or three commands, and you have a simple 3d program that you can run by pressing one key. With QBasic, the feeling was the same: a complete control of all the computer features (of its time, of course), in a simple environment. Both BlitzMax, and FreeBasic, assume you already know how to use basic features, and give you more, but don't feature the simple and user friendly environment. You need to include extern files to use 3d graphics, for example... for a beginner, an import/include can be confusing: you need to add lines of code that seem to do nothing, but you get an error message if you don't. But targeting to ex-users of an older language has a limit, because when no one uses the old language anymore, it's hard to get new users: a person who wants to learn programming won't start with BlitzMax (it's a good language, but not the most suitable for a newbie), and a person who already knows how to program and wants a language with OOP would likely pick a mainstream language like C++ or Java. In my opinion, what is needed is something beginner-friendly, like the original Blitz3D. And this would mean: no classes, no abstraction, just a plain, simple, imperative language, with a friendly IDE. The language could be interpreted, not compiled (so it will be executed immediately, and the program could be debugged easily, and changed on the fly); an immediate mode (to test a command, change a variable, or modify something) would be useful, as well. And it should feature a rich library of commands (like the 3d command set of Blitz3d). Python+OpenB3D can implement some of those features, but I think that a dedicated language, with its own IDE, would be better. Oh, another feature that could be useful would be the ability to run the program from memory without writing it on the disk: a thing many beginners do is to take a program (like a demo), and change something to see what happens: often it's better not to save those changes, or the original program will be broken (beginners usually forget to make a backup of a source before modifying it). So, what I would like to see is an integration of OpenB3D with some simple Basic interpreter, to create an easy to use tool that will encourage to learn more about programming: from there, users could move to better languages (like BlitzMax, FreeBasic, C++... whatever) and still use OpenB3D. Thoughts about it? |
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| just a plain, simple, imperative language i have been saying this for years, almost alone, but you will see with time (i hope!) that people will realize that there is no advantage to have a programming language far from the logic of the thought/spoken language... You should not have to think about how to write the code with a specific syntax, you should be able to code as you think or be able to convert your "code with words" into "programming code"... |
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| Question: does a programming language based on spoken language exist? Spoken language has too many ambiguities, you can't expect the computer to "guess" what it's supposed to do. Also, spoken language is redundant, has a lot of unneeded parts. Think about LOGO: in natural language, you should say something like "Go forward by 50 steps", but a simple "forward 50" is shorter, and does exactly the same: why wasting time writing "go ... by ... steps"? It's implicit you want to move the turtle, and it's implicit that the distance is in steps, so you don't need to write it (most users, after a while, used the abbreviation "fd" instead of "forward") |
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| Well of course you don't need to add all the complexities and exceptions of a written/spoken language, what i meant is that the syntax of a programming language is better (imo) if you can guess it by knowing what you want to achieve and not have to memorize weirdly named functions/writingstyle . That's why i like Blitz3d : i want to work on a surface : Surface = getsurface(mesh,surfaceindex) i want to move an entity of 0.15 units forward moveentity(entity,0,0,0.15) Now look at the Unity/Unreal commands to achieve the same thing... If you look at most functions names of Blitz3d, it can be summarized by : action (verb) on thing (entity, mesh, texture, joints/bones, animation, image, font, sound, camera, listener) (some functions names or parameters order are not written the best way imo because they don't follow exactly the same logic, but this is a detail, Blitz3d is great...) |
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| OpenB3D has exactly the same syntax. That's why I suggested a simple language using that library. |
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| Eventually, with the upcoming AI and all that the conventional programming will be replaced. Rendering the coders(not programmers) into useless items. :-) You just speak to the computer and it will simply do what you ask for. Now, as always, be careful what you ask/wish for as it will do exactly that of course(which may not be what had in mind). And to get back at the trolling.(oh-why-oh-why do I do this..) :-) Admittedly I'm not the best of coders, but I do have a whole bunch of good idea's( some of which are stunning, possibly blow your mind, but can't tell :-p). All I can say my friends really would wanna play that stuff. Also I have a pretty good idea on how to implement and I already have a well working framework in Blitz3D, nearly complete. However, for it to run as intended it will require networking capabilities currently not available to blitz or are very hard for me to implement. I have no desire(read: time) to delve into that territory which will probably set me back for 2 years. So I had no choice but to resort to C#+Unity, which I really do not favor(at all). |
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| You just speak to the computer and it will simply do what you ask for. in theory, go try a few speech to text softwares, then reread your sentence :P However, for it to run as intended it will require networking capabilities currently not available to blitz or are very hard for me to implement. you have all the functionalities you need to make it happen. (and btw i can share a few tcp/udp libs that i have on my hd that you may not have) |
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| Well said angros47. I couldn't agree more. |
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| Josh, apologies for being such a hot head. My emotional connection with the Blitz brand seems to trigger a territorial response. In my view of business you discover what you are good at and you focus. You then iterate becoming better and better at your core competency. The best thing that could happen to BlitzMax was if you announce official API support for the leadwerks engine. If you are not prepared to do that , and perhaps open source your editor so others can climb aboard your train I will continue to wish you stay well away from the Blitz brand. |
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| The best thing that could happen to BlitzMax was if you announce official API support for the leadwerks engine. I would also like to see that. But first get BlitzMax moving forward. Josh is offering to spend serious money to make it happen. If that succeeds he can think about reconnecting it with Leadwerks. |
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| Fair enough. It is not my place to judge. |
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| @RemiD I know how terrible speech input can be, but it's getting better and better all the time, especially with the rise of AI, into which people are poring hundreds of million$ these days. Works pretty good on my Galaxy S7edge btw, but I don't see myself dictating code just yet, however it's ability to distinguish between environmental and other voices at the same time and understanding context and intonations is being worked at vigorously. From my previous postings I think you know what feature I'm after: on the fly transferable hosts and secure packets. Even though you may not like this idea and do not agree it's a good solution, I've seen it working perfectly fine, just not in Blitz and don't think there's such a solution at hand, while to my knowledge it does exist in Unity, which has the benefit of multiplatform and inbuilt physics, but drawback of.. well, not being Blitz and having to use C#. So, if you've read my previous comments, the choice is obvious, though not desirable. |
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| @Rick>>if you think you can do better with Unity, feel free to try. I have done some experiments with it and imo it complicates things even more (for me). |
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| Yeah, it's not all so straight forward. I'll see where the ship strands. lol BTW: Would this compete with the Big-Bang engine? |
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| @JoshK put your leadwerks engine up for free. |
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| @JoshK put your leadwerks engine up for free. Hahaha, why on earth would I do that? |
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| Because you no its shit. |
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| Because you no its shit. True, true.  Anyways, this is about the future of Blitz. |
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| Calm down guys. A new Blitzmax should be user-friendly like Blitz3D, I still remember my first week and the exponential learning curve ten years ago. A big disadvantage of Blitzmax was and still is the lack of a complete and well documented 3D Engine, I can work with miniB3D but it's not complete. Beside that, I never really understood the Leadwerks stuff or wanted to move to another 3D engine like Unity. The power of Blitzmax is the easy syntax while it is still object oriented and can include modules to extend it. I never understood why Mark switched to this mobile Monkey stuff instead of creating a real Blitzmax successor (which Monkey isn't). I still like the old Blitz products and this community here but yes, Blitzmax needs a major revision to survive the next 10 years. And I would pay for it. I never had so much fun for less than 200 bucks in my whole life (B3D+Max). I spend more money in fireworks every year on New Year's Eve and it's gone in 15 minutes! It was a good idea to work on OpenB3D to have shaders and such stuff but the basic problem is that Blitzmax ages. The Blitzmax NG approach is much more promising (64bit support) but lacks a 3D engine, too. Perhaps you should create a combination of both? Can't wait for such a new toy.  |
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| Blitzmax needs a major revision to survive the next 10 years. And I would pay for it. I would pay without problems to keep working my current BlitzMax. I need it for my daily work and I can't survive without it. But I really don't know what should be the 'major revision'. BMX-NG has *new language features*, hence the 'new name'. It has been 'remastered' with 64bit OS in mind. When I need/I must move to I know there's a possible working solution. Another branch of BlitzMax it's not needed - just fix *potential* problems. The module-thing is another story: I think none will write from zero a 3d engine nowadays... it's best find a way to 'adapt/import/use' other already done engine. |
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| I can empathise with Skidracer's sentiment. When BMAX was released, Blitz3D had (and still has in my view) more 3D 'ness' than you could shake a stick at. Now, to make BMAX be multiplatform AND support 3D in that vein I would have thought is quite a big ask. Whilst I admire JoshK's desire to move the compilers forward in some vein, I would have thought BRL retains a good element of intellectual property and if BRL do not want to entertain that avenue, then discussing it on what is for all intents and purposes BRL's forums seems somewhat insulting. I can see Josh trying to stir up some emotion by inferring BMAX is 'dead' - using the word resurrect does seem a little premature. If BMAX still compiles then just because it is not receiving updates (it may still be...) then its not dead! There does seem to be some negative sentiment around at the moment. Sure, it took me a few years to get into Monkey, but now I'm really appreciating using it. Maybe the world is moving on from those of us that typed code in from magazines a few decades ago. Seasons Greetings ;) |
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| @Krischan I never understood why Mark switched to this mobile Monkey stuff instead of creating a real Blitzmax successor (which Monkey isn't). It makes sense as mobile is a potentially large market(nearly everyone owns one) and also to keep up with the likes of Unity, but nevertheless he should have added a 3d module for Max first to keep things going for I think quite a few Blitzers would have purchased it. Maybe an OpenGL lib port would have been best to keep it multiplatform, something like Aqualung did(see here) to which he released the source btw. Perhaps it all took Mark more time than he expected. |
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| From my narrow perspective, I'd vote for future tools to have a BASIC foundation -- like Blitz 3D and BlitzMax. I agree B3D looks more friendly/ inviting for beginners, but lacks multi-platform -- not trivial. As for Mark moving toward Monkey, the future was obviously Mobile. It takes time to turn a huge ship! When Monkey arrived, mobile was indeed HUGE but already FREE. Those pesky re-sellers. No respect for programmers... |
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| Some detailed suggestions what a new and better Blitzmax should have and what I've missed yet (just my personal opinion/experience), and that's what I call a "Major revision". Perhaps some suggestions are exaggerated but I'm just dreaming of my perfect programming environment, I just call it "Project Phoenix" now (resurrected from the ashes of Blitzmax :-D) In my opinion Blitzmax is a dead horse right now as Mark went on with Monkey and abandoned it. In a few years only a few people will use it and the others went on searching for alternatives. That's sad because the Blitz community was and is still great, but it becomes smaller. 1. A built-in 2D/3D engine Project Phoenix render targets: DGX or OGL without changing the code to switch between. The same commands for different render targets. Shader Support without the need to create everything from the scratch & provide examples the user could use as a base (for example: apply the shader to a specific surface only). Media management - load/unload during the game in the background to reduce memory amount (I needed to write this on my own and it's hard to find memory leaks). Simple Syntax like in B3D/miniB3D. Quaternion based Rotations. More ready to use functions for games and applications (I've written tons of own functions I always recycle in my projects, even started a large module extension for miniB3D but never finished it). The 3D engine should have optimizations and game features I miss yet like Resolution handling, Quadtrees/Octrees, large scene management/Clustering, A* in 3D, Texture Splatting, Paths/Bezier Splines, Direct Texture manipulation. Summarized: Project Phoenix should be a swiss knife for 2D/3D games (what Blitz3D was back then) and small applications. 2. A built-in GUI system There are some modules doing this but it was complicated to use them and I always got back to MaxGUI, which is too Windows-style to me. Project Phoenix should have included a flexible GUI for games and applications within the canvas window, yes that's what I want. Main Menus, custom Buttons, Pulldown menus, Lists, scrollable Text Windows and everything should be customizable. But it should be still easy enough to handle. 3. Documentation/Examples The documentation of B3D was good while the documentation of miniB3D/Blitzmax was a mess compared to it. It took me years to switch from B3D to Blitzmax+miniB3D and I'm still fighting with it. The documentation of Project Phoenix must be complete with good examples of the most functions. Make it more professional. 4. Keep good things Blitz products were always easy to use though Blitzmax was a bit more complex. A few lines of Code, F5 and voilá a nice running demo. Keep this as the "killer feature" of Project Phoenix. Think about the complexity of C, C++, Python, Java - you can create everything with these languages but they are not easy to use. Project Phoenix as a customizable Toolbox for games, coated as a programming language, that's it. Superstrict was a good idea. Casting variables without declaring them is easy but creates a mess in larger projects. Keep this. A major advantage of Blitzmax is the Module concept. Keep this in Project Phoenix that users can create and contribute their own modules. Let them still include C, C++ and ASM for optimizations and create own functions from it. Object-oriented code with Types made many things easier to manage in larger projects. The user should be able to create a complex project from predefined functions very easy but still let him dig deeper in the sources if he needs to. Cross compilation for PC/Mac/Linux should be possible, too. 5. More user friendly IDE Building modules, MinGW and command line windows is complex for new users. MaxIDE was ok but lacked many features, Blide was much better. Project Phoenix should have a IDE like Blide with project management (perhaps with less features). Like a command center where you can manage the whole Blitzmax and project environment. You can even code with Windows Notepad if you're experienced enough but the IDE should help the programmer to keep a clear overview of the whole project, smaller and larger ones. A code analyzer should be included, too to find bugs easily. 5. Other features / Expansions Bruceys modules are a good point to start with. Modules like ZIP handling, encryption, SQlite, XML, RegEx, INI Handling, Filters, FPS, Gradients, Noise, Logging, Text formatting, Localization and so on. Just include everything a standard game programmer could make use of in Project Phoenix, that he mustn't reinvent the wheel and build everything from the scratch. The handling of TList/TMap could be extended like in PHP to use associative Arrays. 6. Future-proof Think about where we could be in ten years. Will Blitzmax still run? What about DX/OGL? Will your game/app still run then? What if you need to recompile it? Is it necessary to rewrite large parts of your source then? Keep this in mind. 7. Clues Keep this mobile target stuff out of Project Phoenix, there is Monkey for this. I doubt that we'll see complex games on mobile as the keyboard and the mouse are still better inputs for complex games than your fingers. Perhaps VR will change this in near future but the next ten years we'll still working with a PC/Mac, a keyboard and a mouse. I doubt that desktops are dead just because of the mobile hype. We have tons of gem collection games, card games, Angry Birds clones and such stuff and still work on a desktop (and I even play the most time on a desktop). I'm not experienced enough to handle such a large project or estimate the time and costs but I could contribute custom functions, examples/documentation to the project, testing and provide feedback during development, for free. |
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| Well, some things could be easily solved. #2 BUILT-IN GUI (I suppose you are referring to in-game UI): there are - surely - around some modules for that. For 'applications' MaxGUI is working quite well. #3 DOCUMENTATION: after more than 10 years I think there's very much documentation around! It could be (of course) reorganized (I still would like to have the online manual complete). And the community is always here to give an help. Moreover, different modules, different documentation. #5 MaxIDE: standard IDE is one of the solutions available. There's also the CE, Blide etc - and JoshK demonstrated that MaxIDE could be 'expanded' to give other services. So - again - it's just to be clear on what really needed. My only concerns are about BUILT IN 2d-3d ENGINE. Honestly in Monkey 1 we have seen a different '2d engine' (and even more in Monkey2!) compared to the BlitzMax original. But even if it allows fancy things, I consider it 'harder' to understand (pop/push matrix, translate etc are quite different than a simple DrawImage X,Y) So there's already 'source-code' around to adapt: and due to the BlitzMax module nature a 'new' graphics module/engine could be done. But I suspect you want a 'managed' engine (ie: create a sprite/entity, load/manage resource etc) - this is not implemented (and there were paid framework - based on the current graphics BlitzMax 'engine') About 3d... what we can say again? MiniB3D, OpenB3D, Big Bang and other solutions: nothing is complete or considered 'fully featured'. ps: I want to put a 'positive' critic, please don't consider what I wrote like a NO at the project. :) Cheers |
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| I was on unity, but the amount of setup kind of killed the flow, I came back to blitz3D, I just want an updated and compatible blitz3D, nothing fancy added! |
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| @Degac You said that none of the 3d solutions is complete. Which features of Blitz3D do you miss? |
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| @Degac: "I suspect you want a 'managed' engine" - nope. I don't want a sandbox world editor with a attached code but some elements could be easier. It should still be a programming language which controls the rest. The GUI modules are ok but not easy to understand / to implement in a game project. So a GUI module close to the 3D engine makes more sense. The documentation "around" is very basic compared to B3D, take a look at the german manual even if you don't understand it, that is much better than in Blitzmax. First the syntax, a brief description, a screenshot/image and a example code. That is a documentation. And the community dies slowly, more and more people are leaving here which is very sad but a result of abandoning Blitz3D/Blitzmax in favour of Monkey. Look at the german Blitzbasic community, it is nearly dead already. For the 3D engine: it mustn't be a complete new 3D engine (I don't know what is possible to include a 3rd party engine), but the syntax to control it should be as easy as Blitz3D. No more need to use inline OpenGL commands for example. In miniB3D I'm stuck with OpenGL and spend a lot of time to fix or rewrite commands with OpenGL "hacks" to achieve the result I need. And like neoshaman wrote, the setup of other engines is like installing an old Microsoft OS. That is ridiculous and they have a steep learning curve which I find repulsive. I don't want to read dozens of Tutorials or watch Tutorial videos before I can write the first line of code, the basic tools must be intuitive with a small introduction to create quick results and the option to go much deeper later. I had absolutely no clue about Blitz3D before October 2005 and one weekend later I created my first complex techdemos with it. |
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| You might consider using a wrapper to a bigger 3d engine (irrlicht etc). and additionally have a module giving "presets" for that engine. So instead of "CreateIrrlichtEnvironment()" usw use the irrlicht-wrapper similar to multiple audio-engines. Set3DWorldEnigne(IrrlichtEngine()) - this already loads the defined presets (there should be ways to circumvent basic initialization - if really desired) From then on everything just works as expected: adding a light ("AddLight(lighttype, params)" will cast shadows to other entities in the world, adding an entity ... adds the entity and so on. the "end user" (developer) should never really need to know what engine is really driving the world. He/She just defines _what_ happens, not _how_ things happen. Most users wont even bother if some features are _not_ available that easily (or in that moment). They want to add entities, manipulate entities ... and to have a good looking output / render. As we talk about BlitzMax: it should be cross platform (mac, linux, windows) and maybe fully NG-compatible (SDL, android, ios. ..) Conclusion: a wrapper to the engine (doing the hard work) is needed. this wrapper allows to "ease the pain", to manage connection between "blitzmax + 2d modules" and "3d world" (in the sense of "model.SetTexture(loadimage(bla))"). "Blitz3D"-users might want to assign custom shaders somewhen in the futures, but most of these users will just be happy with a default "shade / light as a simplified raytraced scene"-shader (dunno if that is even posible). bye Ron |
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| Have you searched through the forums for the software called Hardwired? It was something that a member called Ploppy, search that name as well, was working on before he died. It adds some great functions to many of the Blitz products and was opensource with no one picking up further development on the project. that might be for you and at least you would not have to begin from dead scratch. You could continue or rewrite it for whoever. Search for the name Hardwired |
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| I thought it was closed source and not cross-platforn. Bye Ron |
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| i have abandoned the BlitzMax community already by failing to provide support beyond Leadwerks2 ..i somewhat agree with skid..this is exact moment i left LE with commercial product finished by use of LE2.x..basically it was dead in a water completely as well as whole existing community back then, literally over night, with no support for it whatsoever (as new focus was mobile as its future of gaming, just to be proven false), which ended up in to variant which is exactly what destroyed LE2 community was asking for before its all gone.. |
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| A modern version of Blitz3D, which is what Hardwired would have become, seems like the perfect product for the "future of Blitz". It would have been the Blitz3D v2 that some have craved for well over a decade now since Mark moved onto other projects. |
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| Josh, apologies for being such a hot head. My emotional connection with the Blitz brand seems to trigger a territorial response. In my view of business you discover what you are good at and you focus. You then iterate becoming better and better at your core competency. The best thing that could happen to BlitzMax was if you announce official API support for the leadwerks engine. If you are not prepared to do that , and perhaps open source your editor so others can climb aboard your train I will continue to wish you stay well away from the Blitz brand. There are a few technical challenges here. My API is now object-oriented C++, not the procedural command set of Leadwerks 2. I also plan to move everything over to 64-bit within two years, so that is something that definitely needs to be planned for. I don't want to try to use BMX support as a bargaining chip, that's just what the issues are. I'm definitely open to the idea. Leadwerks 2 was specifically aimed at BMX users, and it ended up attracting C++ programmers instead. A poll showed 85% of my users were coding in C++ at the time. Fast forward to today, and 90% of my users are using Lua, if they code at all. The reason for this is our visual flowgraph system, which is built around Lua. I think Blitz3D/Max3D users and Leadwerks users are two different customers. Most Leadwerks users today aren't programmers at all. A lot of the functionality of my system, you can only set up in the editor and you can't do in code at all. Blitz3D type people tend to be your classic bedroom coders. Lack of features is actually a good thing with these users. What they want is 3D graphics to be about as simple as 2D retro games, not to have every feature and capability under the sun. My focus on graphics and system requirements have also been a huge point of contention with the latter crowd. I will refrain from trying to recruit here (it isn't effective anyways), but I think you overestimate the amount of overlap there. What Blitz users really want, whether they realize it or not, is retro arcade game coding with a third dimension. You make it any more complicated than that, even if the features they say they want require you to, and they will reject it. I don't know what the limitations of MiniB3D are, but if it was on par with Blitz3D and was renamed to Max3D and made official, in my view that would satisfy the demand for a basic code-centric 3D engine. Ignore the demands for an everything-including-the-kitchen-sink editor. Max3D should appeal to people who want a pure code approach. ..i somewhat agree with skid..this is exact moment i left LE with commercial product finished by use of LE2.x..basically it was dead in a water completely as well as whole existing community back then, literally over night, with no support for it whatsoever (as new focus was mobile as its future of gaming, just to be proven false), which ended up in to variant which is exactly what destroyed LE2 community was asking for before its all gone.. Mark and I both got taken in by the mobile hype. You have to understand, I had hundreds of people telling me every day that I had to have mobile support or die out. Even people on this forum were convinced that iPads were going to totally replace the PC. At the same time sales of Leadwerks 2 had stalled out and the forum was constantly being hit by guerilla marketers/fanboys. Blitz users overall weren't interested in my game engine I had specifically created for them, and the pool of C++ programmers was very limited, so a new market had to be targeted. When we did release a mobile product, those people who said they wanted it were nowhere to be found. I realized quickly it was a disaster and reversed course, hard. Leadwerks 3.0 was release on April 15, 2013, and the Kickstarter campaign for Linux support was June 16 of the same year. What a nightmare that was! However, it did lead to my current approach which has proven far better and I'm doubling down on everything that makes people like my product, even though customer demand has steered it into being very different from what I originally set out to create. If you have any problems with your old project, talk to me. |
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| > A lot of the functionality of my system, you can only set up in the editor and you can't do in code at all Time to split gui from logic :-) Seriously: if you can trigger / setup things via a GUI, then you should also be able to do it via code (as the gui is just doing what the coder would do - just "manually"). At least this is what I thought GUIs were for. Aside of that: thanks for some insight story (I always like to read such things). bye Ron |
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| @Angros I mean that there are different and various (in the good and in the bad) 3d engines fighting to take the throne. For someone OpenB3D is too much like Blitz3d(!), for other one not. I followed about HardWired, Big Bang, miniB3Dplus etc - very promising each one. But - at the end - a definitive one is not still get out - and I don't consider the hardware compatibility, the shader supports etc: Without considering that initial 'fight' to setup correctly the 3dengine/module (ie: the 'right' opengl.mod, the right MinGW version etc)... not a very good starting point! I agree with Derron - Bmax (ng/phoenix or whatever new one will be introduced!) needs an 'univeral wrapper/interface' ... so a source-code should work on any 3d engine (of course using a 'common denominator'), just changing one line SetEngine (name_of_it). Easy to speak of course... just a little more complicated creating one I think! :P @Krishan With 'managed' I really mean an engine where you instance a Sprite/Entity, with the bounding box, collisions etc via 'commands' (ie: CreateSprite(image), SetAnimation image,xxx...) - and the engine just 'runs' everything (UpdateSprite, RenderSprite etc). Something like the GreyAlien framework, or the most recent Pyro/Ignite. An editor is something that could exist, based on this layer between low-programming (draw the sprites, culling, collisions etc) and the high-level where you just define movements, directions, collisions-case etc Personally I hate 'programming' using these editors. I had a look at the german help, and yes I agree that every commands needs at least one example to understand it better! In the past (time permitting!) I tried to update some of the commands online with examples (see this http://www.blitzbasic.com/bmdocs/command.php?name=CreateMap&ref=) What I say is that it could be done in an organized way :) The manual section allows to post/edit quite easy (a problem could be add images), and contrarily to the various wiki-attempts, it's still here and working! Once completed the 'manual' could be downloaded, reorganized in a .chm file, a pdf, in a local documentation etc. This is not a problem. ps: Blitz3d is 'easy' because is 'completely managed' by the language itself. If you want (like the original goal) create a 3d game, Blitz3d approach is perfect. The problems are behind the curtains and user should no worry about them. But the other site of this approach is that, WHEN, the user-programmer want to do something 'not permitted/not expected' problems rises. |
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| I agree with Derron - Bmax (ng/phoenix or whatever new one will be introduced!) needs an 'univeral wrapper/interface' ... so a source-code should work on any 3d engine (of course using a 'common denominator'), just changing one line SetEngine (name_of_it). This is a perfect example of a customer who has absolutely no idea what they want, and will happily make insane requests that if followed will lead you to oblivion. :) |
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| The idea what they want was given. It is up to the producers / vendors to offer a perfectly suiting product. If they are not able to deliver, then of course customers stay "potential" customers. Blitz3D-users want: - an easy to use 3d engine (OOP for advanced, simple functions for beginners) - an engine which allows for nice visuals by presets (so the initial world+light+entity already "looks nice") And if I were asked: - cross-platform as I am on Linux :-) - no fancy editor for setting up things, this is "sugar" and could be one of the commercial "extras" - things like "wysiwyg"-material editors are another commercial extension - lightweight: if you do not use something, its good to not load everything in the binary (only static meshes? skip all these bone/animation-extras) - ... if the engine would be using a "driver" approach it could be replaced by just having another mod dropped in. This is the harder part as this means all engines (or better: their wrappers) need to fullfill basic requirements (aka the "basic driver"-functionality). This is btw not the thing really needed - but a nice to have. If you ask a kid what it wants for christmas: it wont tell you exactly how the new bike has to look (ignore the "I want brand X"-wishes for now). They say: I want to do this and that with it - and it should look cool. It is up to the vendor to make it safe for the streets, make it look cool but still "controllable". bye Ron |
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| All this talk of making a new engine... JoshK wants to use the Leadwerks engine, unless I'm mistaken? |
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| If the engine is wrapped nicely behind some simple functions (or types like "TEntity" and "TCamera") it should not matter which engine "runs" the final application. bye Ron |
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| All this talk of making a new engine... JoshK wants to use the Leadwerks engine, unless I'm mistaken? I specifically said MiniB3D is probably the best candidate, because it's just Blitz3D for Max. an engine which allows for nice visuals by presets (so the initial world+light+entity already "looks nice") Not really, people here have always said they want Max3D to run on their ten year old laptop. |
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| @Degac With OpenB3D there is shader support, and I try to support even older hardware (the library can work even if only the fixed pipeline is available). The last version works on WebGL, too, that is even more limiting than GLES 2, to be able to work everywhere. And about your idea of using a SetEngine command, I agree with JoshK that it does not make sense: different engines provide different features, so it would be impossible to control all of them with the same command set (what would you do if a command uses a function that is not available on that specific engine?). And limiting the command set only to features that are available on all 3d engines would be limiting, because all the engines would be crippled, since most functions would be unreachable. |
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| Not really, people here have always said they want Max3D to run on their ten year old laptop. And a notebook of 2006 is not capable of having some shadows on a 3d terrain? I have an older-than-2006-notebook which is capable of running WarCraft III without many issues. That Game already had shadows. Dunno about lighting yet. For me it is always good if an engine supports older hardware. I understand that you then cannot just use "modern ways" to do things, but this is something the "Blitz3D"-user should not care about. This is the engine developers worry. If something runs on grandma's computer, then it is also good for "casual game" developers just using some 3d effects in a "2.5d" game. So yes, geometry shaders might be "too modern" to use, but that is something I do not know much about. Just wanted to say what I assume a "Blitz3D-coder" wants to have. @ limited command set If an engine does not support a given instruction then it should do something "in the likes". If something does not support "bump mapping/normal mapping" then it could just "stub" that function which sets these materials/configuration. if something is not able to "render to texture", then it must do it in a software way (or fail with a "throw" so the coder knows about it). How would you tackle the "sound engine"-thing if you limit yourself already at the begin. Of course FreeAudio does offer another functionality then OpenAL, but they offer the same basic things. So a 3D engine should behave similar: creating entities, moving entities, animating entities, ... lights, shadows, ... The "Blitz3D-user" does not care _how_ you do the shadows, as long as there are some - and the "Pro ones" like to have direct access to manipulate things or to configure them in an advanced way. This is why I thought of an "wrapper" instead of a direct binding to an engine. A wrapper also allows to put a "lite control" over a more advanced engine without this engine being in need to adjust for these "lite controls". @ angros Is there a _current_ BlitzMax wrapper for the current revision of OpenB3D - and did you think of having some kind of "preset" so a BlitzMax-OpenB3D-beginner just gets a good looking initial output? bye Ron |
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| Well, maybe I will make Max3D then, but it would be very different from Leadwerks. |
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| @Derron>>since you seem to not be a Blitz3d user, how do you know all of that ? |
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| @Derron I tested OpenB3D shadows and terrains on a 2005 notebook, it works (stencil shadows worked fine, even at the time). OpenB3D wrapper for BlitzMax were mantained by Munch, who stopped updating it this year. |
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| Looks like Josh has identified a market niche that's going unfilled. Having made two games using Blitz3d and a Blitz3d variant - and I balk a bit at making the jump to Unity3d - I'd be very interested in this. But before all the bells and whistles, I have some baseline requirements for another a Blitz-like product; 1, That the core commands be rock solid reliable. I really don't want to spend time working with another Blitz3d variant only to find things like rotation/scaling/parenting have basic bugs. I don't have the time. 2, that it work reliably with older rigs. If this means that cutting edge features are not included, so be it. Can do a lot with art style anyway. 3, fast - that there is some sort of internal render batching so the engine doesn't chug when there's more than 5 entities on-screen. 4, collisions are fast and robust and provide the usual feedback info 5, 3d sound includes doppler and fade effects 6, shadows - easy to implement and control in terms of range, quality and on a per-item basis. |
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| @remiD Assumptions based on expectations.about "beginners" and motivated bedroom coders. @angros Yes I found only inactive wrappers which is why I asked. Bye Ron |
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| Indeed, the main update in the last version was Emscripten support, so a new wrapper is not needed... for now |
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I don't think you guys are a big enough market, but you are the seed of a market, which is very good. The code I would have to write is very easy. My only concern is which sports car I should buy?   |
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| @MadJack You forgot? 7. Shader support(preset and custom for advanced power users). 8. Physics, otherwise again an external lib would be required, with potential bugs/quirks. 9. For same reason: Multiplayer networking(and for myself: on-the-fly host switching, just see the networking features of Unity <here>). 10. Android/iPhone support to extend the target platforms?(if Unity can, so should Blitz, otherwise it will always be 2nd best option and we want to go for a Unity killer right?). 11. Steam support 12. module browser in the editor for free/paid additional extensions/3d models/audio files/shaders presets etc. |
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| Constraints (with Verlet integration) and rigid body are enough, for physics? |
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| My only concern is which sports car I should buy? ..none..you need this..its fast enough, but it will go near everywhere..  |
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| Damn it, no physics engine! That's why I quit unity to test simple gameplay, we need to have a moratum in keeping collision separate from physics response, I spend so many time trying to negate teh physics system that it run slower than blitz for simple stuff (in fact a game engine ported FROM blitz3D)! Most game need custom physics anyway, real physics make sloppy game design! Also blitz3D have the superior input implementation for fast response game. fixed function shader make for a very fast set up of 3D models without declaring 3trillions stuff in different place and the need for an editor to set up the basic models. Try using debug text on screen with unity. 2d in blitz is awesome to quickly prototype and visualize routine before going 3D, everything else is sugar and should be extension! |
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| Also blitz3D have the superior input implementation for fast response game. fixed function shader make for a very fast set up of 3D models without declaring 3trillions stuff in different place and the need for an editor to set up the basic models. Try using debug text on screen with unity. 2d in blitz is awesome to quickly prototype and visualize routine before going 3D, everything else is sugar and should be extension! Anything you want.  |
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| @MadJack, just needs a bit of a wash ;) |
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| what I would like to see is importing C++ code without having to create a wrapper for it. |
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| some sort of internal render batching copyentity is like "batching" ? that it work reliably with older rigs. If this means that cutting edge features are not included, so be it. Can do a lot with art style anyway. +1 i say focus on the essentials : 2d graphics engine 3d graphics engine way to position, rotate, turn, move, translate, entities 2d/3d sound engine (or sound functions to get/set the volume, pan, pitch) functions to create/modify images, textures, meshes, surfaces, vertices, triangles, materials, joints/bones, influences/weights, animation and frames/poses. animation system possibility to use shaders the rest can be added by using external systems, (linepick, collisions, physics, networking) or custom shaders (per pixel lighting/shading, shadows, bump, glow, ...) (that we can create and share between users) |
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| Why does a 3d engine need to be able to play sounds but is allowed to rely on external collisions, physics... Thought we talk about a renderer engine not a whole 3d world engine. This question is serious: why should the "Blitz3D-replacement" be able to play sound? Shouldn't an external 3D-position-capable sound engine be able to play a 3D sound given by entity-coordinates. Same for physics and so on. But to ease the pain: all of these extensions should be able to get added like components, so for the beginner, an "UpdateWorld()" already calls updates for physics and whatever is connected to the "engine". If you do not need "shadows/bump/glow" in your engine, you just could stay with the current engine and "shader it in" on your own. These are basic features. bye Ron |
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| @JoshK - Another option here would be to make the owner of Nuclear Basic an offer to buy that product from him. I believe he's having some financial difficulties and seems to have largely abandoned any idea of continuing to develop or support Nuclear Basic as a commercial product, so he might be interested. Nuclear Basic is pretty much Blitz3D 2.0, so it would be what you're looking for. Admittedly it's in a buggy and somewhat unfinished state with shoddy documentation and tools, but it would give you a big head start on this project. It would also mean that those of us who own a copy of Nuclear Basic might end up not feeling like we've bought a lemon - assuming the licenses were transferred as part of the deal. |
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| NB and especially NF, is fastest rendering engine i have seen, and its really really stable (NF)..its the closest thing to B3D i have seen so far that actually works very very well.. |
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| @Derron>>about the "sound engine" i agree that it is not a necessity, i should have written "essential sound functions to be able to set/get the volume, pan, pitch", then users can share their 2d/3d sound system my point was that it is better imo to keep the language/engine very light with essential functionalities (2d, 3d, animations, sounds) and then add others functionalities via external systems/libs, because really nobody want to be forced to use a system if it lacks functionalities, is buggy, is slow... (Blitz3d collisions system lacks functionalities and is buggy) The other advantage is that it will be ready more quickly if you focus on the essential functionalities, because look at how many wip/unfinished/buggy/slow "Blitz3d like" have been attempted... |
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| @JoshK Maybe I can't express my idea about a 'wrapper' better, so I would like to use something you should know better http://www.leadwerks.com/werkspace/blog/1/entry-1737-leadwerks-maxgui-driver/ http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=106659#bottom So - if I'm correct - you left the MaxGUI 'interface' and just changed the 'driver' to use you own C++/OpenGL render. My idea of '3d-wrapper' is the same: I never said it musts be have the SAME logic or syntax of Blitz3d, but surely every engines have same concepts/idea (Ogre creates scenes & nodes... other no). @Angros Probably I did test and found that shaders supports on my hardware (AMD Radeon) was not so stable at the time: I need to give a retry. |
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| @neoshaman You wouldn't actually *need* to use the in-built physics engine, it's not mandatory, just convenient for some stuff. Also, I didn't realize we were only talking about a 3d engine here, for Blitz3d imho isn't just a '3d engine', but a combination of a lot of nice things to help you create a game, it being audio, text, 2d or 3d gfx using a unified syntax and the ability to quickly get results. All that made it pretty unique and lovable. I therefore rather would see an all-in versatile 'game/media-engine' instead of just a 3d extension, otherwise I don't see a big viable market for it and it would still be outdated by the other flashy contenders out there. But hey each his own ideas. |
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| @Rick This is why people should choose BlitzMax over Blitz3D. It has the "sound stuff" and so on. It just needs the 3d engine (would be nice if it is able to run together with Max2D - for compatibility to existing frameworks). BlitzMax already offers sound, networking, input, ... and is of course more (able to) cross platform than blitz3d. bye Ron |
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| I therefore rather would see an all-in versatile 'game/media-engine' instead of just a 3d extension, otherwise I don't see a big viable market for it and it would still be outdated by the other flashy contenders out there. If I make it, Max3D will be a module for BlitzMax, with 100% the same commands as Blitz3D, with normal mapping and shadows. It will run on any hardware, on Windows, Mac, and Linux. This would be very easy for me to do because of my godlike 3D programming skills. And I already have all the important code done. What about a 64-bit compiler for BMX? Is anyone out there serious about this? NG might work, but I am not sure yet. I did get a reply from Bruce on my problem, so that is good. |
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| @rick nasher What I mean is that collision and physics are generally highly coupled in the typical game engine. It's almost impossible to enable collision without enabling unnecessary physics, and this will lead to noise and explosion to set up against! You either have it or you don't. Collision is one of these thing that are an annoyance and a diversion to implement for just a basic essential features. Blitz3D is set up for games by default, by default it has simple collision that have sliding and just stop at the surface, it listen to collision so you can make your own logic, and it's simpler to just have solid objects. Declaring collision is super simple and you don't have to juggle with complex but limited layer system like in unity. It do have its bug but they are less of a problem when you are still figuring out the design of what you want to do. Input is another things you can it was created to default on games, blitz3D return the number of press BETWEEN frame, automatically. Before I knew about buffering to make snappy platformer control, blitz3D took care of that for me. In unity that f**cker, he only listen to input AT update interval, F********#@! stupid, you have a lot of set up to do to get good control and yet you still miss some press, the hack is to use the ongui() update to get more press between frame because it run at a higher framerate ... Blitz3D have the minimum comfort to make "games" first, everything else is rather sugar on top because, by the point your project become complex and you have to implement sophisticate techniques or work around, you already have a solid foundation you have validate with the simpler tools. Meanwhile in unity I spend time making the basics works FOR GAMES and it's a game engine ... you can tell people who made it never actually made enough game to start with. I was making a half edge geometry data structure to generate mesh on unity before jumping back to blitz3D, the cycle of "typing-F5" is much better to prototype code logic that slow ass like unity3D that need 10 supports function before having anything go. mesh = createmesh():addvertex(xyz uv): addtriangle(123), is the superior way to prototype mesh building and not having to think how to declare class, access component and other stuff, It's 2 lines for every 10 lines in unity. Also the limitation force you to KISS and KILL. I'll still got back to unity for polish and compatibility, sadly. Basically Blitz3D get you to make a GAME fast before the need for polish kicked in and the limitation start to feel heavy. It has all the minimal requirement to get you up the ground without being bog down by the excess. The only thing I would add native and not extension would be (by order of importance): - a proper generic list data structure (top priority) - the ability to create skin mesh - more audio listener for multiplayer |
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| @neoshaman>>i agree with you, i like what you wrote. @Rick>>stop dreaming and start creating something, i already demonstrated to you that the networking code using UDP is not the problem, your logic code is... I suggested (and i suggest again) to make a prototype of a multiplayer game using binary files (like packets) and using several programs (the clients) who write/read files in a directory to/from another program (the server), once you have managed to do that and your logic is correct (without using of TCP or UDP) then convert it, not before. You complain about a non existent problem. This would be very easy for me to do because of my godlike 3D programming skills @JoshK>>please lead the way and be our king ;) |
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| > This would be very easy for me to do because of my godlike 3D programming skills. Ahh..yes. Glad to never have seen god coding something (at least he was able to find someone who is able to write some sentences into stone blocks). Do not forget: we are here in an "open sourced languages"-community, so a commercial module might be less interesting :-) But hey, maybe you convince all the ~10 Blitz3D-users being aware of what we write here. bye Ron |
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| Let me think about it. |
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| anyway , a 3d modul for bmax with crossplattform export sounds great . gtx |
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| I like arrogance because of knowledge, skills, abilities, ahahah :) @JoshK>>what is this photo ? Scarface ? Seems like it, make us feel the fire (the Blitz fire!) : youtube.com/watch?v=hyT6mrSAaAs |
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| I dunno. I get the feeling that Josh is actually trolling the real fanatics here. |
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Only a module? |
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| Yes i smelled some trolling when he said : It will run on any hardware, on Windows, Mac, and Linux. but if you have read some previous posts of JoshK, you know that he is a little arrogant, so not sure... So is he a king ? or a troll ? Mystery... |
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| Please can we not loose sight of what we have. Blitz Max is cross platform, stable and for coders able to implement/create modules a very adaptable language that comes with a knowledgeable and helpful user group. As a user I tried it, I liked it and then I bought it inside a few days. If it stopped working on newer systems I would be well, sad. I would have to keep my old systems running until I found a language that did all that Blitz Max did. As for making money.. I once wrote a piece of low level code which interfaced a mouse to a BBC computer that was distributed with a package of applications for the BBC. Never had any intention of earning from it and nor did the lad that wrote the applications, just glad that my skills in 6502 could be of use to others. IE Some of us code for pleasure, hope the input from a happy end user is of use. Have fun cps. |
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| So was anything decided? |
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| My Nissan Micra 1.0 liter does me fine. If you tell people you are rich they hate you.As you have found out JoshK. So was anything decided.Yep JoshK is still a lactating TIT. |
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| I have a Christmas surprise coming, but only for those who are on good behavior this year. |
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| If it had been decided I think he would've said so. The first posts are pretty clear, anyone interested & capable of working and maintaining a commercial version of Blitzmax x64 can contact him (you should add an e-mail to your profile Josh), but I don't think anyone has come forth. Best of luck. |
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| @RemiD Already created 'some things', but just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean you shouldn't believe. lol Unfortunately I'm always deeming it unsuitable for publishing and moved on to the next target to complete it, for always keep adjusting my goals over time as my taste surpasses to what's beyond my skills of the moment: -I started off with 2D, then simple 3d with animation, massive modifiable multi-textured terrain, weather effects,real-time shadows with nice water with day-night cycles, physics and then nice looking wind controlled foliage, vertex lighting for some additional effects and all while keeping up speed. -Now all that's possible(not all issues solved, but a lot are), I want the player to have the choice of ad hoc multiplayer for LAN party's as this would really add to the experience/ addictiveness the game needs(and no, I don't have the time nor desire to delve behind the scenes deeply into that, I want a simplified library/wrapper that does the hard stuff for me). In other words all the bells and whistles possible in order to satisfy my ever expanding demands. But as explained I'm simple programmer with nice ideas, like a director/scenario writer, not a math wiz or 'coder', even though the stuff I showed to my friend who's a professional programmer skilled in multiple languages says that what I'm doing is pretty hard-core in his eyes. Perhaps I'll one day show the source. :-) A well, never satisfied, I should go back to painting, I'd easily make money more then(famous last words).. |
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| I started off with 2D, then simple 3d with animation, massive modifiable multi-textured terrain, weather effects,real-time shadows with nice water with day-night cycles, physics and then nice looking wind controlled foliage, vertex lighting for some additional effects and all while keeping up speed. and no gameplay ? This would qualify as a demo, not as a game... @Rick>>i just suggest to not run after all the trendy functionalities because as you may have realized, as a lone developer (even if you outsource some creations) you are limited in what you can achieve and you won't be able to compete with the modern video games by big studios. So do the best you can but stay realistic about what is possible to achieve. (and don't waste time with unimportantfunctionalities/details) But you do what you want... |
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| I have a Christmas surprise coming, but only for those who are on good behavior this year. I see there's an update to the Leadwerks engine out - includes GameAnalytics integration and new screenspace fx. |
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| Its a shame, but alas, I cannot see anything taking off... Blitz had a big core set of users, and it lost the entire lot of them nearly because it never kept up, there was potential, but now, there isnt, and a few have tried to piggy back of this community with their own stuff... iBASIC, Cobra (and dare I say it... CoolBasic) all stem from this very place, and not one has reached the heights of Blitz products (Product leader) or even TheGameCreators stuff (Market leader). I just cannot see the point, commercial wise, not only does the public want free/dirt cheap stuff, most dont even have the patience to play a game correctly and require level skip buttons etc etc Dabz |
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| Jeez Dab - negative much? |
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No hope of a Blitzified Leadwerks this x-mas then as we all have been bad little children. Or is Josh really no other than Bad Santa in disguise? ;-) |
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| Sometimes it is not for the money, it is for the challenge of improving your understanding/skills and of achieving something great. (or at least good) ;) |
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| If someone makes a Blitz3D like product for modern hardware. I'm all in. I watched many would be contenders come and go without completion though. |
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| When there is a rush to the bottom (to be competitive) there is always going to be negativity and a lack of worth. To be honest I think you guys are f*cking idiots (the current games industry). You don't see lawyers doing this, cutting wages. You simply suggest that programming and producing content for that game to be worthless - and so easy to produce. A handbag from a particular brand is worth a fortune - because they value themselves and their brand. Where as you value yourself as a free give away piece of software, no matter how many hours were spent on it...Very sad. |
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| @Steve Elliott>>i spend many hours (one third of each day) sleeping, i do it for free because i like it. Just learn to appreciate things, it's not always about the money ;) |
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| I've had two games published using Blitz3d and a B3d-like language. First one has had a terrifically long tail and is still making money. Second one is not having anywhere near the sales and that's due to a number of issues - market saturation (indiepocalypse), lack of MP, PC only, early access - but there's still enough interest that it's worthwhile pushing on. So count me interested in seeing Blizt3d v2. Trick is to getting a number of titles out all of which are earning because games on Steam can have a very long tail. Just don't go the bundle route because then you're burning up that tail in one roll of the dice and assisting with the 'race to the bottom' in terms of PC games. |
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| Just learn to appreciate things, it's not always about the money ;) That's exactly what I'm talking about - people not valuing their worth. ok not everybody wants to become rich from something they enjoy doing...But Steve Jobs would be spinning in his grave hearing these words. Some of you guys de-value programming until it becomes a laughable job - everybody thinks it's simple...Well it must be, you do it for free! I don't see Josh doing that, or somebody that knows about plumbing, or building, or teaching or... |
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| @RemiD: Just learn to appreciate things, it's not always about the money ;) Well put RemiD. I couldn't care less about Steve Jobs, sure he was minted - I'm never going to watch the Steve Jobs film, I'd rather watch paint dry or grass grow. @Steve, I'm not sure programmming is 'de-valued' because people do it 'for free'. The way I see it programming is an art form akin to bricklaying - I recall someone putting a pile of bricks in the Tate Gallery, although that was stretching it a bit. Sure, its not everyones cup of tea, some people do crosswords - I like to code in Monkey and Blitz3D for relaxation. If/when you monetize something then it can turn into a monster. End of the day, I'm happy coding with Monkey and Blitz3D and have achieved more than I could've dreamed of back when coding in ZXBasic. @MJ: Trick is to getting a number of titles out all of which are earning because games on Steam can have a very long tail. Good advice, thanks for sharing ;) Just don't go the bundle route because then you're burning up that tail in one roll of the dice and assisting with the 'race to the bottom' in terms of PC games. |
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| Programming is art plain and simple. We create a masterpiece in code as a painter paints a picture using paint. Sometimes that picture may sell for millions other times its screwed up and thrown away. True code is the same sometimes it's discovered and sells other times it relegated to deletion or on a disk in a archive. Nothing is worthless is you learnt something doing it after all we didn't learn to code by just installing a language we had to use it to learn. back on topic I do believe that if a new blitzlike product was created I would make a new site for it as this one is very long in the tooth and a separate product wouldn't be BRL's own so would seem like a leeching of the community. Why not just bring Max upto date if you want a new max? |
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| @Steve Elliot>>some here complain that their games are not appreciated/bought but really look objectively at the "quality" of the games... All creations are not equal... You can't say that an unfinished, ugly, buggy, slow, game/engine is the same quality/level than leadwerksengine (since you talked about Joshk's creations.) |
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| yes i agree that a new website could be a good thing, so that the posts about Monkey could be marked as spam and removed :P |
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| Jeez Dab - negative much? Not really... Its just the way it is isnt it? Languages have come and gone and not one has set the world on fire... Even one of the popular BASIC iOS development tools is now open source (GLBasic). Then lets look at monkey 2, it looks lovely i admit... But hows patreon doing for Mark? Has he reached a decent amount yet? Or has it gone significantly down since he launched the campaign? Its a fine and dandy looking at stuff througb rose tinted glasses and hoping for the best, but sometimes you have to just see the real reality of it all. Were old school now, we were once prepared to roll up our sleeves... The world doesnt work like that now! Dabz |
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| @Dabz I gotta admit it ya right all the blitz languages have faded into obscurity. Unity and Unreal engine reign supreme heck there is jobs requiring it along with C#. Last time mark stated on the monkey2 forum he wasn't making enough money from it st present. Were all looking at everything that once was wondering where it went wrong and the only way I see it was marketing or lack of it killed our dream. |
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| The surprise will commence in 48 hours. |
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| Better be mince pies or I'm out of here !!!!! |
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| 46hrs and counting down. lol |
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| I was thinking Steam Winter Sale but I see LW is already heavily discounted (also reminded me that I actually own LW but had forgotten about it). Josh is putting out a 2017 calendar featuring himself? |
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| :-) 41hrs and counting.. |
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You can have all our developers except one. Do not attempt to lure him or make contact in any way. |
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| Even one of the popular BASIC iOS development tools is now open source (GLBasic). That sounds interesting. I tried to look for the source but it seems it's only been given to a few people upon request. It's not in a public place like GitHub or SourceForge, and you can still buy it in the website, so perhaps it's not open-source (I thought it had gone free like the BRL tools). |
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| The surprise will commence in 48 hours -JoshK * spoiler alert * The surprise is Rick Astley :) |
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I have no idea what happens.  |
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| I love Josh K Style.. |
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Here comes the fanfare: |
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| @JoshK>>if you cmanage to create a new blitz3d-like, here is a music that you could use to represent the graphics engine : http://youtube.com/watch?v=FoKzN8vfYOQ and the photo which comes with it (you can put your face on it as you would be the creator) :  ahahah :D @skidracer>>i knew that you had a troll sleeping deep within you, unleash it, let it out (moderately of course) ! (it is like a stress relief therapy) ;) |
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| The Christmas surprise will be his reveal of which sports car he's gonna buy. |
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| Will there be a thread lock just before the big reveal..... Off topic, no snow here yet 😉 |
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| Your surprise will commence in 24 hours. Please ignore any surprises that may appear before then, as these are fake surprises and should not be confused with the genuine thing. |
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| Your surprise will commence in 24 hours. Please ignore any surprises that may appear before then, as these are fake surprises and should not be confused with the genuine thing. I hope it's a good surprise, everything is very discouraging in the world. :) ...Since there are good and bad surprises. |
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| as these are fake surprises and should not be confused with the genuine thing. Maybe Josh is on the Christmas Sherry already ;) |
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 Hip!, Hip!, What do you want to know about surprise? ... I forgot ... |
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| Well, we all know The Simpsons predicted Tr(i)ump, so time to watch some re-runs. Counting down: 21hrs to go. (the suspense is very well done, I feel an urge hide underneath the x-mas tree and keep an eye out for Santa tonight, already checked) |
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| Being a resident in New Zealand, we're 24 hours ahead of everyone else (go on, look it up). As such I can announce that Josh's big surprise is that he's bought Blitz Research. It's on all the news channels here right now. Expect the Christmas purges to begin shortly. Merry Christmas. He knows who's been naughty and who's been nice. |
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| The chance to win a golden ticket. I should think im out the running. |
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| Josh-- per MJ you have Blitz Research- pick up Nuclear Basic while your at it! ;-) |
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| I did not purchase BRL. |
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 |
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| Hee hee |
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| 17hrs to go.. :-) |
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| ..deja vu..looks like a hype from NMS..everybody got excited and then...pooofff.. :) |
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| hmm... |
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Now where is the surprise? |
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| there probably was no surprise. However, the Hardwired project could go forward since ploppy had intended to take BB to multi platforms. I think he installed touch commands or was going to before he died. I have no touch device and so could not check the commands before removing Hardwired from my machine. |
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| There is an external dependency I must clear up. Can't say anything more for now. I did not anticipate this. |
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| Josh Congratulations on becoming a father! |
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| Would it surprise anyone if it was another variation of Darkbasic? |
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| Houston we have a problem? |
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| Did somebody mention DarkBasic? While Josh gets himself sorted, let's take a look at Lee Bamber's latest! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tgc/myworld-imagine-create-play  |
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| This was done in BMax or Darkbasic? |
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| Josh! You promised a surprise but my Xmas stocking was empty this morning. Dream-breaker !!!!!!!!!!! |
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| Please be patient. I wish I could explain what is happening, but I think it is better to keep that private right now. |
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In the meantime, here is something fun for you: |
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| While Josh gets himself sorted, let's take a look at Lee Bamber's latest! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tgc/myworld-imagine-create-play This was done in BMax or Darkbasic? It is being done with Unity3D. Kind of bizarre choice I thought when what they should of done was bolster up AGK, done it with that and then they could have promoted AGK off the back of it. It's a shame as AGK is good product but I get the impression that it's hovering on the continue development / abandon seesaw. |
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| Right off the bat I can see 'entityautofade' and entitytexture in that letter square. Has he wrapped Leadwerks in a blitz wrapper? Is that what this is all about? |
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| Well, there are also CameraClsColor, CollisionTriangle, CreateSphere, BrushBlend, Collision etc...:) Has he wrapped Leadwerks in a blitz wrapper? He said he had already quite ready something like this, but I think he took Max3d code, polished a little, and packaged as a BMX-module. Or he's working just on a crossword generator... |
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For who's bored underneath the x-mas tree(I'm out of time ;-) |
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It's 1:00 in the afternoon, I just left the bed and the surprise is a crossword? |
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| Nope, there's an unexpected nag in Santa's surprise: I think an elf got stuck underneath his sled making it hard to slide over the snowy roads. ;-) |
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| Don't knock a good crossword generator, whilst wordsearches were good fun back in the day, my grandad enjoyed a good crossword ;) |
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| I wrote a wordsearch solver back in college :) |
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| Perhaps time to dust it off and let it have a go at it? |
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| lol I no longer have the computer it ran on (Atari ST) :) |
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| That's a pity. emulate? lol |
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| lol I wish I had hung onto my old kit - and software. All I have now is a broken ZX Spectrum. |
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| on a unrelated note- Nuclear Basic has taken down its forum in the last few days...... (jes sayin!!! ) Mad Jack stop it you are so funny! :) |
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| gp So it is - Have emailed Matthew. Hopefully he'll sort it out. Rest of site is still up. |
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 |
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| @skidracer lol :) |
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| sk Don't mind that truck - it's only carrying sheets of glass. You're perfectly safe.... |
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| If I receive no response within a few days I will explain what has happened. |
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| As cryptic as a crossword. You posted the wrong type of puzzle. |
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| Out of interest, how long do paternity test results take these days? A few days? |
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  |
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| @JoshK you have made yourself look a right Wanker. YOU FAILED! They have changed there mind. |
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| BM Relax dude - we're having a bit of fun here. |
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| Indeed Lol. Just hang on. Everybody has rushed once or twice in their enthusiasm and had to bite their tongue afterwards. |
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| Are you Rick Nasher and MadJack and there was me thinking i was. Planet earth is full of em. HeHe thank you |
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| I know I'm going to regret this but what is 'Planet earth' full of exactly? |
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| If i tell you that you will never look in the mirror again. |
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| Ok. Nice thread while it lasted. I'll check back in a day or so to see if Josh has posted again. |
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| Why did the chewing gum cross the road. Because it was stuck to the chicken`s foot. I said to the doctor,have you got anything for wind. He gave me a kite. I see yha later. |
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| If I receive no response within a few days I will explain what has happened. It's takes that long to dream up a story?. Here are a few to help... The guy who was going to supply you with the source code let you down and thus you can now not take credit for their work? Your God like 3D coding skills got the flu? Your ego realised that it couldn't actually deliver?. I will stop here before I write something ban worthy :/ |
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| GoTo 163 :) |
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| Josh sent me a demo, it's real, it's real! |
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| Pic or it didn't happen :-p |
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| Yep we know Qube. Josh has a half inch willy. Ah the nurse is calling sweety time,wheres me spacesuit. |
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| Yep we know Qube. Josh has a half inch willy. Is that why you don't like him, because it's bigger than yours?. Or did he call you MicroMan once? Pic or it didn't happen :-p  :D |
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| @Qube i dont like Josh Klint cos he is a rip off merchant,American snifflin wanker that has to get his own way .That is why i hate the fuk.Long live Gabe Newell |
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| @Qube i dont like Josh Klint cos he is a rip off merchant,American snifflin wanker that has to get his own way .That is why i hate the fuk.Long live Gabe Newell Fair enough :) |
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| The softpedia watermark is already a dead giveaway, so it's either you're mocking Josh Clit there or at least make an effort to post a proper fake demo preview.. Your image link.. static.ccm2.net/pt.kioskea.net/faq/images/10140-IYw9nxxBlCQroWLS-s-.png Softpedia  I'm done with all this new stuff anyway. Monkey 1 is already crossplatform, great vendor modules and has 3D and close to Blitz3d. Very basic 3d stuff yes but it's already there. I'm now curious if Monkey 1 will still be supported in the future since it is still up for sale and I'm planning to get pro eventually. I'm still using NG. |
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| The softpedia watermark is already a dead giveaway, so it's either you're mocking Josh Clit there or at least make an effort to post a proper fake demo preview.. It's cute that you think I was being serious. *EDIT* I like your name for Josh :p |
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| Heard it all before in grade school. |
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| New Thread Please. |
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| Heard it all before in grade school. Did they mock you even then for your God like crayon skills? OK, I'm done with taking the piss before it sounds more serious than it is. Josh, there was no malice meant from my posts and my apologies if I was only one enjoying the banter. |
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