mbmFramework - Free version now with source code!

Community Forums/Showcase/mbmFramework - Free version now with source code!

matibee(Posted 2010) [#1]
If you don't know the mbmFramework is my game framework for Blitzmax that contains a heck of a lot of functionality to help you concentrate on writing your game code. Some features include;

Automated application flow
A funky animated GUI
Data driven with sound, music and graphic resource management
Localisation
Animated sprite handling
Particle effects
Code profiling

I've tried to quote this list so many times I always miss something interesting! The full list of features is here.

My signature pic is a little tongue in cheek, but here's a recent quote from one user on the framework forums..
.. coding this I learn a lot about the framework and I must say: it's great! The app states, the GUI files, the resource handling for sprites and sounds and the animator stuff really help in creating a cool looking game with little effort!


I'm currently up to V1.7 with some small tweaks, bug fixes and additions suggested by the users.

Here's the big news: The framework has always been free for non-commercial use but on a closed source basis, but now I'm offering you access to the source code along with the free license. All I ask is that you register with me to obtain download details.

A commercial use license still costs 50 euros but you don't have to worry about that until your commercial game is finished!

As with all things in life, I must reserve the right to withdraw this offer at any time but that will never effect registered users.

Cheers
Matt


slenkar(Posted 2010) [#2]
50 euros might put people off, thats about 70-80 dollars
how about 20 euros?


Hotshot2005(Posted 2010) [#3]
34.1852(£30 in english moneys!) Euro should get all the people buying his Framework quite quickly. 50 Euros? I agree with slenkar as it will put people off if is 50 EURO!


TaskMaster(Posted 2010) [#4]
50 Euros is not a lot if it is used in a commercial project that will make money.

I think this is a very fair offer, and if his framework helps you complete a commercial product, he probably deserves more than 50 Euros.


Jesse(Posted 2010) [#5]

I think this is a very fair offer, and if his framework helps you complete a commercial product, he probably deserves more than 50 Euros.



I agree.


MGE(Posted 2010) [#6]
99% of Bmax coders are not commercial devs, if you want sales lower the price.


matibee(Posted 2010) [#7]
99% of Bmax coders are not commercial devs, if you want sales lower the price.


That's sort of upside down. For the "99% of Bmax coders" there is nothing to pay and there never has been.


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#8]
99% of Bmax coders are not commercial devs, if you want sales lower the price.
You can't get lower than free. Unless you are suggesting matibee should pay people to use his framework?

Personally, it sounds like your snide comment is coming out of your feelings of inadequacy since you never actually finished your framework and left all of us who were interested in it hanging and blowing in the wind.


MGE(Posted 2010) [#9]
Not trying to be snide at all, I couldn't access the web page (down?) to verify details, but 70-80.00 for a Blitzmax framework for the masses is expensive. Commercial developers will have no problem for the asking price, but if you want to address the other 99% of the bmax market, the guys doing shareware, freeware, donationware, etc, etc, the price needs to be alot lower. If it's free for them as well, then this is the deal of the century. ;)


Brucey(Posted 2010) [#10]
You'e got to laugh though... People want BlitzMax to support things like iPhone, for example, for which you would need to pay $99 a year just to compile a binary up for said device.

Given that this is free until you want to sell something that uses it, €50 is not a great deal.

As usual, the (over-) tight pockets of the forum drown out the interesting (and possibly exciting) news for the rest of us.


Matty(Posted 2010) [#11]
Agree with Brucey, heck you could charge more if you wanted...if you've made a commercial game and don't think you could recoup 50 Euros...


TaskMaster(Posted 2010) [#12]
MGE, I don't think you are understanding.

He is sharing his framework and its source for free. You only have to pay for it, if you make something that you plan to sell.

If I made a game I was going to sell with his framework I would pay him 50 Euros. Heck, if the framework were really useful, I would probably cut him in on a share of the profits.


matibee(Posted 2010) [#13]
Free for non commercial use has always been limited to my definition of "non commercial".

Shareware = commercial. Period. End of. I don't care if it's a 99c app store game or a 19,99 niche title. Freeware = non commercial. I'd even accept Donationware as being non commercial in most circumstances.

What I don't accept as non commercial is free software put out by commercial developers to drive traffic to their site or other products, or free software which may be otherwise funded such as by ads or sponsorship.

If you're gaining financially from products created with the framework, beyond the occasional donation, I consider that commercial use and would like you to pay for it but I'm hardly in a position to bring legal action against those that ignore me.

This offer is about extending reach. The work is done now, it's ready and available for use and it's not doing anyone any good having it collect binary dust. Serious devs will pay for it and in return can expect me to be extremely prompt and professional if the sht hits the fan during the crunch period of their next portal hit. 99% of Bmax coders can play around with it, poke holes in it and make it explode in new and interesting ways. But I do expect a few of that 99% to decide that shareware is within their reach with this new tool they're using and pay the license fee and start profiting from their work.


Matty(Posted 2010) [#14]
Sounds like a good tool, I only use blitzplus and blitz3d but maybe one day I'll have a look at this & blitzmax....anything that makes game creation easier and faster is always good.


Naughty Alien(Posted 2010) [#15]
i think this is fair deal, sine hes charging only when something out is commercial..fair enough..no complaining here..


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#16]
but 70-80.00 for a Blitzmax framework for the masses is expensive.
You live in the USA, it is $66. I know this is a hard concept for you, but be rational enough to deal with facts. It will not cost you $80 or $70 or any amount in between.

Commercial developers will have no problem for the asking price
Good, because those are the only people who will have to pay it.

but if you want to address the other 99% of the bmax market, the guys doing shareware, freeware, donationware, etc, etc,
99% of BM users don't release a damn thing. (I guess they follow the example you set for them with your framework?)

Those who release freeware, do not have to pay to use matibee's framework.

Shareware by definition is commercial, and the price is reasonable. Right around the same price as frameworks by others, and this one wasn't simply nicked from the code archives and had a price tag slapped on it.

MGE, you should not slam matibee just because he succeeded where you have failed. It is not matibee's fault you did not have the skills needed to finish your own framework, and you should not punish him for your own shortcomings and failure.

People want BlitzMax to support things like iPhone, for example, for which you would need to pay $99 a year just to compile a binary up for said device.
There will be complaints galore if Mark decided to release support for the iPhone and charge for it. The entitlement mentality around here is amazing. Heck, people will also slam any iPhone support that does not include a 3D engine like BM's competition. My personal prediction is that if iPhone support is released, within two weeks of release, due to the backlash Mark will drive to Skids house and kick the shit out of him for ever suggesting ARM.


therevills(Posted 2010) [#17]
MGE has already said that he couldnt access the website to verify details.

Have you seen Christmax Clix? Its even on WiiWare!! I think his framework is working pretty good there ;-)

There will be complaints galore if Mark decided to release support for the iPhone and charge for it


Brucey is talking about the Apple charge for the iPhone developer program - $99 per year!!


Matt for the free verison, could you create a mod which the source code need to access to work to stop people ripping you off?


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#18]
MGE has already said that he couldnt access the website to verify details.
And your point is? Even after mentioning the site access, MGE continued (in the same sentence) to say the exact same thing and issue the same complaints about the price.

Its even on WiiWare!!
There were great games on the 2600. Unfortunately, BM does not support the 2600 or the Wii, so I am unsure how a game on the Wii is relevant to a nonexistent framework which was never created for BlitzMax? Apologies, I guess since we are dealing with imaginary frameworks, we could just as easily say it does support the 2600, and every console every released.

Brucey is talking about the Apple charge for the iPhone developer program - $99 per year!!
I didn't say he wasn't. People will complain in droves if iPhone support is added to BM and is not free. As I said before, the sense of entitlement around here is amazing. Perhaps you were not here to see the outrageous invective when Mark had the audacity to charge for the Blitz3D SDK.


jkrankie(Posted 2010) [#19]
I can't really see what the problem is here. It's a free framework essentially. 50 Euros is bugger all if you're releasing a commercial/shareware game, you'll easily spend way more than that on other stuff when you're launching a game.

Frameworks are there to save you time, so if you're developing commercial games and this framework/bits of this framework can save you even a days work, then 50 Euros is a no brainer.

Cheers
Charlie


MGE(Posted 2010) [#20]
"MGE, you should not slam matibee just because he succeeded where you have failed. It is not matibee's fault you did not have the skills needed to finish your own framework, and you should not punish him for your own shortcomings and failure."

right.... I "slammed" him....lol...hilarious....

For the record I think Matibee's framework is "the one" to get, regardless of price.

I was speaking from a business point of view, of making money, $$$$$ dollar bills, profit, stuff to buy stuff with, get it? I wasn't putting down anyone or anything. There's a crap load of bmax coders who are willing to pay a few bucks for a tool to help them finish a game, these same people might never make a game worthy of being on a portal, but they might want to show their friends, sell it on their website, etc, etc, most would never even make 100.00 in profit. To me that is a customer base worth targeting, they want something easy, quick, and cheap. 50.00+ is not cheap for them. 9.95, 14.95, 29.95 that's in a price range they might jump at. That's it...point of view closed. Thank you.


TaskMaster(Posted 2010) [#21]
LOL

I tell you what. Write the game. Put it for sale on your website. If it makes $250 Euros, then give matibee his 50. It isn't like he is going to hunt you down and break your arm.

If all your are going to do is give a few copies to your friends and sell 10 copies at $10 a piece on your website, then just do it.

Man, all of this hooplah over nothing.

matibee is doing the right thing:

1. Making it free so more people get involved in it's use. More users will help get more bugs found and fixed, more features added, etc.

2. Allow people to use it in case they do come up with something they can sell.

3. Giving the source because it is a pain in the butt to support Linux, Mac, and Windows in a closed source mod. I realized this when doing my GUI.

There are two ways to go about selling something like this:

1. Sell it cheap enough that people will buy it, even to only use as a hobby.

2. Sell it for more, but let everyone use it and only pay for it when they plan to profit from its use.

I chose #1 with ifsoGUI, matibee is choosing #2 with his framework. Neither is right or wrong in my opinion.

Oh, and MGE, your WalMart pricing of 9.95, 14.95, etc, cracks me up. 10, 15, etc are perfectly viable. :)


Dabhand(Posted 2010) [#22]
As someone that is playing with the framework, all I can say is that its rock solid, it does exactly what it says on the tin, it saves a heap of faff, helps organise everything into a logical system (Where my natural project organising leaves a lot to be desired, so its spot on for me) and the support for it has been great from Matt, which by the way, he supports the free version too, regardless if you've bought it or not!

Dabz


therevills(Posted 2010) [#23]
And your point is?


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ANYWAY....... Ive messed with Matt's framework and it is great, I'll have to look deeper now thanks to Matt releasing the source for the free version :D


Steve Elliott(Posted 2010) [#24]
lol, MGE gets slammed for suggesting a lower price for commercial use. Personally I would have kept quiet if I've been down the framework road myself, but hey. ;-)

Good luck with this matibee.


Dabhand(Posted 2010) [#25]

lol, MGE gets slammed for suggesting a lower price for commercial use. Personally I would have kept quiet if I've been down the framework road myself, but hey. ;-)



Well, MGE promised more than a framework (A particle thing), and it never came which a lot of people were looking forward too, but, if the man has an opinion, he has an opinion... Even if it did resemble Gordon Browns Re-election Speech (Where technically, he wasn't elected in the first place)

Or something!?! :D

Dabz


_Skully(Posted 2010) [#26]
Well, MGE promised more than a framework (A particle thing)


LOL there is a LOT more to a framework than a particle "thing"


MGE(Posted 2010) [#27]
Agreed! And with all due respect, I only had 6 serious users who were interested in what I was doing. But quite frankly, there are much better solutions available right now compared to what I was ever doing. (this thread topic for instance!) The only reason I didn't "finish the job" was I needed money and started farming myself out for various work, primarily flash and console coding. I'm using bmax primarily for in house tools now. It's still the best tool to quickly prototype an editor, graphic tool, etc.


_Skully(Posted 2010) [#28]
I think true interest comes after a little bit of maturity and some reasonably decent games / demos made with the framework. Right now there are a few good looking frameworks available such as mbm, and if I wasn't making mine for personal reasons I would probably drop it and just get to making a game too :)

Truth is I'm really enjoying making the framework and creating little demos while I can't afford media to make the games I plan on making. Once the framework is rock'in I'll get to the grind on actually making GalAxis which if all goes well, won't take long because of the framework 8)

Anyway, I ramble... I should get looking at some source to see how he did a few things... erm... I mean see how cool it is ;)


Dabhand(Posted 2010) [#29]

LOL there is a LOT more to a framework than a particle "thing"



I meant that as in another half-arsed project which never took off... Which was in his sig for a bit! ;)

And yes, I know what it takes to do a framework, I've bought Greys and used Matts, particles have little interest in a framework for me anyway since TimelineFX currently blows anything away! :)

EDIT: I mean no offense by that BTW, I do that same thing too! :D

Dabz


MGE(Posted 2010) [#30]
"I meant that as in another half-arsed project which never took off... Which was in his sig for a bit! ;)"

yah..don't you just that when peeps do that? yawn....

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=81688


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#31]
yah..don't you just that when peeps do that? yawn....
Actually I use his DX9 engine for an app at work. Dabz was even nice enough to make a DLL for me to save me installing the newer version of VC++ just so I can compile it. Forget what license it was released under, but Dabz work is top notch.


Dabhand(Posted 2010) [#32]

yah..don't you just that when peeps do that? yawn....



Didnt I post above that I said I did that too? I think I did... But the example your pointing to is a bad example.

Firstly, the first version I posted on that thread was 0.5, the last version I posted was 1.0, which technically meant, I did implement exactly what I intended... As in, it was finished.

Further more, I did compile the whole lot into a DLL for GaryV and Sauer, because they did seem to be the only ones interested.

So, in respect, I built what I wanted, released it, and supported it... So please, in future, do not relate your half-baked vapour projects (With all singing sigs) with mine... Just keep on doing what you do best... Prancing around the forum like the big 'I am' eh! ;)


Actually I use his DX9 engine for an app at work. Dabz was even nice enough to make a DLL for me to save me installing the newer version of VC++ just so I can compile it. Forget what license it was released under, but Dabz work is top notch.



Thanks GaryV, much appreciate the fact someone is using it and finding it handy! ;)

Dabz


Steve Elliott(Posted 2010) [#33]
Another fight in a thread? Sheesh. Must be something in the water. ;-)


Dabhand(Posted 2010) [#34]
Its not a fight Steve... Its just a little bit of tomfoolery! :D

Anyway, as it stands, I think Matts framework is worth the 50 loo roll asking price if you make a commercial game with it!

Dabz


Steve Elliott(Posted 2010) [#35]

Its not a fight Steve... Its just a little bit of tomfoolery! :D



lol. I was just skimming before I did some coding, but got involved in a couple of threads some how. :-D

If you want to get on and write a game, these frameworks are very useful.
Matt could always offer a sale price now and again if he wanted too.


_Skully(Posted 2010) [#36]
Wow... matibee gives his framework away with source for freeware and development of projects only asking for $ when and if an actual commercial game is created and all he gets is grief over charging a pretty minimal fee in the grand scheme of things. Sad.


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#37]
I only had 6 serious users who were interested in what I was doing.
Given the limited market of BM users, six seems like a very good number of users to be interested, especially in a nonexistent product.

But quite frankly, there are much better solutions available right now compared to what I was ever doing.
Real products are always better solutions than vapor ware.

Wow... matibee gives his framework away with source for freeware and development of projects only asking for $ when and if an actual commercial game is created and all he gets is grief over charging a pretty minimal fee in the grand scheme of things. Sad.
No good deed goes unpunished. If you do something good around here, you will have people like MGE swinging baseball bats wrapped with barbed wire at your head, and using steel toe boots to kick in your teeth and ribs.


LineOf7s(Posted 2010) [#38]
For goodness' sake...

As I read it, MGE made a (admittedly terse) suggestion to matibee to lower the price NOT to increase the usage of the framework (after all, it's being given away for free for non-commercial use), but to increase the likelihood of people paying for it anyway despite the fact they're unlikely to be one those few people who release software commercially. Y'know, like people in the Blitz community often do, to say 'thankyou' in a financial way to someone who's put the effort in and has very humble requests for remuneration. I read it as a suggestion for a way for matibee to make more money, not for people necessarily to be able to get the framework cheaper (since, remember, it's already free).

In fact, this bit:
There's a crap load of bmax coders who are willing to pay a few bucks for a tool to help them finish a game, these same people might never make a game worthy of being on a portal, but they might want to show their friends, sell it on their website, etc, etc. 9.95, 14.95, 29.95 that's in a price range they might jump at.


MGE's said nothing regarding matibee's framework other than it's "the one to get" and that it's one of the "much better solutions... compared to what I was ever doing". That doesn't sound to flameworthy to me.

As far as MGE's unfinished framework goes: let anyone here who's never left a project unfinished throw the first stone.

Can we get back to celebrating matibee's work and generosity now rather than cannibalising our niche lil community?

PS: This (framework) is the sort of thing that makes me want to buy Blitzmax.


MGE(Posted 2010) [#39]
@Dabz - sorry Dabz...you threw first ascii stone so I just referred to your project that obviously never took off either. "Big I Am", that's a good one, I like that actually. Made everyone on my end get a good laugh.

@GaryV - "If you do something good around here, you will have people like MGE swinging baseball bats wrapped with barbed wire at your head, and using steel toe boots to kick in your teeth and ribs."

Nicely done mate, that looks like a cut and paste job from the book "forums for dummies" from the chapter "how to attack other users" by simply copying the block of text and replacing "<enter username here>" with your target of the day, in this case "MGE".

@LineOf7's - yes...you get it. Ofcourse the only thing I was ever doing was debating price on the framework for the mass market. There's a very small market of commerical developers, but a rather robust market of small'ish developers (me) where virutally every tool I see get released simply does not target.

@matibee - Very sorry this thread went sour. Looks like it was my fault, but anytime someone starts posting financials about a product of interest, there's always going to be heated debate about price, features, etc, etc. To be clear on the subject (because I've wasted enough time in this thread) I think your framework is a worthy successor to GA's framework and I wish you long term success with it. If money is a goal and it should be, I would consider 2 license models, one for the higher end devs who are targeting portals because they will gladly pay 100-200 or more for something like this, and another license for shareware, freeware, donationware devs, etc, I think they would pay 9.95 - 29.95 for a framework, especially if that includes support which is the biggest issue for them. Good luck!


GaryV(Posted 2010) [#40]
I would consider 2 license models, one for the higher end devs who are targeting portals because they will gladly pay 100-200 or more for something like this, and another license for shareware, freeware, donationware devs, etc
You do realize it is still free for freeware users? How much less would you like him to charge for those users?


Who was John Galt?(Posted 2010) [#41]
Don't sweat it, Matibee. At least they're keeping your thread bumped.

A VERY fair price, IMO.


Steve Elliott(Posted 2010) [#42]
Matibee, people do seem to want everything for free these days, even though they refuse to understand the amount of work that was required to produce the product. Ignore them.

Some people have an issue with MGE, but he's made no statements here to warrant an attack.

Like I suggested earlier, charge what you feel is a fair price for your work, and introduce a sale price from time to time - maybe for the first X number of customers.


Nigel Brown(Posted 2010) [#43]
I am having problems running example 5 - gui.bmx on mac, just get a beach ball, I am using Max 1.38 and the latest mbmframework examples. Line 47 Char 37 is highlighted 'LoadWindow( "Media/menuform.txt" ) the file exists. No other clues at this time all the other demos work faultlessly.


matibee(Posted 2010) [#44]
I am having problems running example 5 - gui.bmx on mac, just get a beach ball, I am using Max 1.38 and the latest mbmframework examples. Line 47 Char 37 is highlighted 'LoadWindow( "Media/menuform.txt" ) the file exists. No other clues at this time all the other demos work faultlessly.


See here.