Blitz Rally Demo - 1st person view

Community Forums/Showcase/Blitz Rally Demo - 1st person view

Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#1]
OK, after the feedback on the previous thread I've made a few quick mods to re-enable the 3rd and 1st person viewpoints. Use keys 1,2 and 3 to pick your camera. I've moved the top-down camera further away as the speed increases, so you can see further ahead along the road. (Note that the arrows don't quite work in 3rd and 1st person views).

I've also changed the steering speed so the car can flick left and right a bit faster, altered the collision code slightly so the car bounces off the scenery better, and increased gravity when in the air so it lands faster.

Finally, you can turn the smoke off with F1, which may help get the framerate up on slower PCs, and I've changed the FLIP mode to wait for a vertical blank, so perhaps that will help....

Anyway, all you need is the new EXE -
http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BR_exe.zip

Overwrite the EXE in the other demo file ( http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BRDemo.zip ) with the new one.

Here are a few screenies -








There'll be no more updates for a while as I'm working on AI for other cars, because I think that Rallycross might be more fun than rallying, but I need working AI and car-to-car collisions for that.

Thanks
James


Duckstab[o](Posted 2005) [#2]
think thats deffo better easyer to powerslide direction icon is to high in mode 2


BlackJumper(Posted 2005) [#3]
Haven't played this... but I hope you are getting a bigger kickback from Marlboro now that the on-car advertising is much more in your face with the new camera view.

Looks better than previous screenies.


Pongo(Posted 2005) [#4]
MUCH nicer! steering controls felt like I wanted, and the graphical glitches are gone from the first version. Any idea what was causing them?

Still loving the 3rd person cam,... I guess as long as it's always there, then you can do whatever you want with the 1st person cam


Red Ocktober(Posted 2005) [#5]
first person... alright!!!!

ok, i'm downloadin it now...

initially, i liked the graphics from the pics i saw... the road texture and the trees looked good.


by the way, what is it with this recent 'flood' of car racing games... i just recently looked at a fun filled demo based on the Cygnus car race game engine, and there's a new offering from Foppy (looks based on the classics)... plus, i can count at least 2 demos on the 3DGame Studio forums.

is it some alignments of the planets... or some sudden interest in physics...


anyway, it's all good for the virtual racer out there looking for that special thing in a racer that the big game houses overlook...

a niche sort of, in a larger segment... coool...


--Mike


Jeremy Alessi(Posted 2005) [#6]
Sweet ... it's much easier to control no matter what view. Personally I really like the top view but it's still hard to drive.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#7]
Its better now, although the change in camera view has highlighted a couple of other issues.

First, the car seems very 'jittery'. Kind of jumps about on the screen a little.

Second, it doesn't feel right when you're going over jumps. I can't quite put my finger on what's wrong there...

My only other problem really, would be the 'hardness' of the edges of the track. If you accidentally clip the edge of the track then for some reason the car turns towards to collision instead of away from it.


JoshK(Posted 2005) [#8]
Working on AI right now would be a development mistake. You still have control and physics issues, right? So if you develop AI right now, you are going to be building on a system that is unstable. Then you will go back and fix low-level problems, and find you have to do the AI all over again, because some new issue came up.

You really need to increase the friction. I am sick of every ODE demo sliding around the road like it's ice.


Craig H. Nisbet(Posted 2005) [#9]
Wow! That's a lot of fun. I like the sky cam view actually. Reminds me of Rock N Roll Racing, without the guns and missles of course.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2005) [#10]
halo is right... you gotta fix the other stuff first...

i gotta admit though... i do like the sliding... hey, ya gotta slide into those tight turns :) right...


this game can be great...

just widen the road a bit...

a lil more steering response or fidelity...

and what's with those damn keys... Q, A, Z... lets use some more conventional keys... A,D for turns... Up Arrow, Down Arrow for acceleration and braking (brakes build up the longer you stab the Down arrow key)... maybe eve some joystick input...

don't worry about the trees... they look good enough... this aint a nature trek... but maybe a lil variety... something else besides trees...

and some clouds... or some rain, along with more slipping...

and you need a rear view mirror...

lets see... did i forget anything :)

toomorrow we'll talk about adding multiplayer to the mix :)

like i said above... this game can really rock... right now it's a lot of fun racing around at ground level....

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

[added]
i'm getting a lil bit of jumping... wheels seem to jump ahead of the car in fp view... this may be my card though...

hey... just noticed... that noise was the car backfiring!!!! cooool!!! :)


--Mike


BlitzSupport(Posted 2005) [#11]
If the back end of the car hits the side of the track it seems to swing way back outwards disproportionately, making the car point further towards the side of the track than it 'should' and not letting you recover.

The 1st person view is actually pretty good (much easier to control, I must admit), but the original view gives it a more unique feel...


GfK(Posted 2005) [#12]
but the original view gives it a more unique feel
Unique in that people generally don't make driving games with this viewpoint for a very good reason. :)


EOF(Posted 2005) [#13]
The car seems very 'jittery'. Kind of jumps about on the screen a little
Same here again. Happens in all 3 view modes.
As soon as I get the car moving it jitters forward for a brief moment and flicks back again.
When in the 'In-Car' view I see the front wheels and car shadow glitch in the same manner.
Same thing happens to the direction arrow.
Oh, and the arrow is almost non-existant when in the InCar view.

Ref: ATI Radeon Mobility 64MB card


Perturbatio(Posted 2005) [#14]
I get a MAV after the instruction screen


joncom2000(Posted 2005) [#15]
I am also getting the jittery car effect. GeforceFX 5200 card, I noticed jb has a radeon so it's not card specific.

Apart from that I like the behind car view but thats true of most racers I play but I like to see the vehicle I am driving :)


GfK(Posted 2005) [#16]
I get a MAV after the instruction screen
The second download is only a new EXE. You need all the media files from the first download as well.


Perturbatio(Posted 2005) [#17]
oops :)


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#18]

You really need to increase the friction. I am sick of every ODE demo sliding around the road like it's ice.



as I said before, ODE is not being used here.

As for the friction, this is a gravel track and therefore slippery. Rest assured that the car has much more grip on tarmac - in fact, unless you pull the handbrake it's very hard to get it to slide, altough the back end does kick out exiting corners under power.


but the original view gives it a more unique feel...




You still have control and physics issues, right? So if you develop AI right now, you are going to be building on a system that is unstable



Personally I'm happy with the way the car drives - the physics system is never going to get better than it is now (and I know this because I have worked on it ever since the car physics code I posted in the archives just after B3D was released) but I still don't like the 1st/3rd person viewpoints - I shall revert to the top-down view primarily because I want this to be an old-school racing game along the lines of Thrash Rally, Nitro, Supercars etc..., not to be another Colin McRae wanabee.

I tried car physics with ODE, but unless you are prepared to get into the Pacejka stuff for tyre physics the results are always extremely twitchy, flicking left to right with little sense of progressive sliding. I had more success using Tokamak than ODE, despite ODE's car wheel joint, but this current system still feels more solid, and much more fun to drive. If someone can develop a car physics system in ODE/Tokamak that feels good, I may reconsider.

I think it will become a Rallycross game rather than a pure rally game though, as I like the pack racing feel and the single short rallycross circuits negate the 'no-idea-where-the-track-goes-next' problem that is inherent to a top-down racer. I currently have the AI racing 8 CPU cars around, albeit only on a single path, but they jostle and spin out and it seems to be fun, which is more important than realism.

Rallycross tracks also don't have jumps, which is good because I'm not that happy with the way the car jumps at the moment.


IPete2(Posted 2005) [#19]
Vorderman,

I like what I see so far dude! Nice work, especially the sounds and the physics too (none ODE - cool).

Where did you get the sounds from? There are some nice details in there!


IPete2.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2005) [#20]
joncom2000... i'm getting that on a GForce5200 also...

voderman... the back end of the car does break loose a lil too easily in the turns... you might want to take a lil closer look at it and reevaluate...

and i see why you had the road so thin... the effect of the trees wizzin' by :)


--Mike


LineOf7s(Posted 2005) [#21]
1. Excellent work. Love the viewpoint - just like a modern Drift Out '94. Good for an arcade racer rather than "another Colin McRae wannabee".

2. It may be correct and right to have the car 'stick' to the trees on the side of the track such that it 'turns toward' the collision and away from the driving line... but it's certainly not any fun. Please address that to maintain the flow of the vehicle - otherwise it'll be one of those 'controller through the screen' issues. And no-one wants that.

3. Glitchy here too - as mentioned, the car (in all views) seems to flicker around its position. Specs in sig.

Keep up the good work.

PS: Rally and Rally Cross as choices in your game would be the best of both worlds.


xlsior(Posted 2005) [#22]
- Much better handling

- Graphical glitches: Even though the FPS consistently shows 60FPS on my Athlon 2800+ / Radeon 9600Pro, there is some massive flickering going on in the background, most obviously in the sky in the 1st person view. It looks like the flickering diminishes while shifting gears, but any time you are accelerating, the sky flickers continuously... Pretty distracting. I don't remember if the original version had the same issue as well or not (don't have the original .exe anymore) Either way it's less noticable in the top view version since you see a lot less sky in that viewpoint.

-As far as the controls are concerned: If I were you, I would seriously consider making them user configurable in any 'final' version. If you grew up with the QAOP key combo it may not sound like a big deal, but to me that is probably the biggest turn-off in your game as it is at the moment -- It requires you to use both of your hands for the steering alone, on top of needing one of your hands to break and such. Cursor keys allow you to do all the stearing with one hand, and the breaking with the other. It's also what the majority of other 'modern' racing games I've played are using, so a habit kind of hard to break.


nawi(Posted 2005) [#23]
Played it couple of times and once for no reason when I hit the side the car got stuck :/.

Other than that, its very good for my likes! Will you be adding PC Wheel control?


WolRon(Posted 2005) [#24]
If the back end of the car hits the side of the track it seems to swing way back outwards disproportionately, making the car point further towards the side of the track than it 'should' and not letting you recover.
Totally disagree. Feels just right to me. Have you ever hit something with a 'real' car?

It may be correct and right to have the car 'stick' to the trees on the side of the track such that it 'turns toward' the collision and away from the driving line... but it's certainly not any fun.
Totally disagree. I love realism in car simulations. If you ever get the chance, try to attain the S-2 (2? if I remember correctly) license on Gran Turismo 3. One slip up that makes you 'touch' the wall a little too hard, and you're starting back over at the start line... Makes you appreciate how well 'real' drivers have to be... (AND I just LOVE driving that GT40!)

Really good game. I was disappointed in the gravity though. Halve it, and it should be about right.

Also, you should 'hide' the car when in 1st-person view. On my computer the front of the car kept flickering on/off and it was VERY annoying/nauseating.

Coming along beautifully though.

Wish my car game was this far along. I'm still working on the engine/transmission/tires/road physics (and all of that on level tarmac).


nawi(Posted 2005) [#25]
If you dont know how cars crash download these videos:
http://www.rallyfanclub.hu/downloads.php?action=show_cat&cat_id=5

:)


WolRon(Posted 2005) [#26]
at 500MB, I'll pass...


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2005) [#27]

You still have control and physics issues, right? So if you develop AI right now, you are going to be building on a system that is unstable. Then you will go back and fix low-level problems, and find you have to do the AI all over again, because some new issue came up.



Very true. I fell for this myself and I'm constantly fighting with the AI to keep it working with my engine.


VIP3R(Posted 2005) [#28]
I really like this Vorderman and those sound fx are great :)

A bit of feedback for you:

Like GfK and others, I'm getting the 'jittery' car too, as if it jumps out of place every few seconds.

The gravity feels too strong when going over jumps and it lands as if there is no suspension (no bounce).

The reversing doesn't look right, as if the rear of the car slides/pivots on the spot.

When power sliding the display update looked a little choppy, I didn't notice a drop in framerate though (60fps).

I thought the 2nd view (chase cam) worked the best.

Very impressive overall considering how difficult homebrew physics systems are, keep up the good work :)


Foppy(Posted 2005) [#29]
It requires you to use both of your hands for the steering alone, on top of needing one of your hands to break and such. Cursor keys allow you to do all the stearing with one hand, and the breaking with the other.
Huh? I think that arrow keys require you to do steering and throttle/brake with one hand! With QA/OP you have one hand at QA, and the other hand at OP.

Maybe we are talking about different keyboards. Or different hands. ;)


Paolo(Posted 2005) [#30]
Great demo !!! :)

My only complain is that the car seems to jump a few
meter forward and backward from time to time...
... I think it is obvious you have a frame tweening problem there
... the frame tweening of the castle demo works perfect,
you should implement it exactly as it is there and you will have no problems :)

Paolo.


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#31]
I'll have a look at the castle demo and see what's up with my tweening, although I'm using the code that was first posted up in the code archives ( http://www.blitzbasic.com/codearcs/codearcs.php?code=9 ) so it should be OK. If anyone has a rock-solid frame-tweening code layout that I could use I'd be very grateful.

Re. the flickering - do you just get it in the 1st person (cockpit) view? If so, I think it could be the smoke sprites being drawn very close to the camera.

Can anyone with the flickering problem try pressing F1 (in the new demo EXE not the first one) to turn the smoke off and see if that helps.


Also, you should 'hide' the car when in 1st-person view.



I though it was hidden...I'll check it out, although as I said before I prefer the top-down view so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.

thanks for all your feedback everyone.


Paolo(Posted 2005) [#32]


Try with this, and is better if you can compile a new exe with this code. I'm also interested in finding
if frame tweening was the problem I saw in your demo :)

Paolo.


VIP3R(Posted 2005) [#33]

Re. the flickering - do you just get it in the 1st person (cockpit) view?


I had the flickering in all views here, although it wasn't as noticable with the original view (heli cam?)


I though it was hidden...I'll check it out


It was kind of hidden but it keeps flickering into view, so it may be related to the above.


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#34]
Eurythmia - Hmm, that's exactly the same as the code I'm using (from the archives - www.blitzbasic.com/codearcs/codearcs.php?code=9 ) , only it has slightly different variable names.


VIP3R(Posted 2005) [#35]
Vorderman, just out of curiosity, what is your refresh rate?

And what video card do you have installed?


Pongo(Posted 2005) [#36]
on my system the flickering made it nearly unplayable on the first version, but the second one is perfectly stable with no glitches.

Any changes that might account for this? Sound like people are still seeing problems with the second one, but it's now fixed on my system.


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#37]
no changes at all from the 1st to 2nd demos, apart from 1 - I changed from FLIP to VWAIT:FLIP FALSE. Perhaps that's what sorted the flickering?

As for my vid card, I'm using a Radeon9800 Pro, at 75hz, but the game runs just fine on my other PC which has only a Geforce3. Very odd that so many people have problems with it - I'm doing nothing weird at all, and my frame tweening code is exactly as listed in the code archives (as mentioned above).

This is compiled with Blitz v1.89 - I'll try a compile with V1.87.

OK, if someone who has had slowdown or glitching problems could try these 2 new EXEs -
http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BR_Test.zip

I've compiled the game with Blitz v1.87 and v1.88 - I noticed loads of slowdown when using Blitz v1.89, so perhaps that new update has screwed something up.

If anyone gets the chance to try it that would be great.

thanks
James


ErikT(Posted 2005) [#38]
v1.87 gives MAV
v1.88 has same car stuttering as before.

Great stuff by the way!


GfK(Posted 2005) [#39]
Same results as Erik Thon.


Pongo(Posted 2005) [#40]
1.87 gives MAV
1.88 is solid with no problems. I have only had the problems with the very first demo.


Paolo(Posted 2005) [#41]
Same as Erik and Gfk,

I could swear it has to do with the tweening but if
you say it is the same code, then I don't know,
...the UpdateWorld command does NOT
has any tween parameter, just a though ...

by the way, I'm with GeForce2 mx200 (32mb), and my
refresh rate is at 60, and my PC tend to work
better WITHOUT the vwait command, just with a Flip 1 at
the end of the code ...


Red Ocktober(Posted 2005) [#42]
hey Voderman... sorry i didn't mention this earlier... but someone else was talking about something similar (the flickering on the new cards and monitors)...

i ran into the same thing a while back and found that by using this...


UpdateWorld
RenderWorld
VWait:Flip False


... it cured all my problems.


simple... but, maybe???


--Mike


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#43]
Well, I already have the VWait:Flip False bit set in the program after the first demo, which seemed to sort out the problem for some people, but here's an EXE with the tweening parameter removed (on my PC it makes the top-down view a bit jerky, but the in-car and chase cams are OK, so it's probably a code thing).

See if this makes things better -
http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BR_NoTween.zip

If not, then I'm completely stumped.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#44]
yep that fixed it. could this be a bit of int/float confusion in your tweening code, i wonder?


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#45]
I've just been through my mainloop code very carefully and it is exactly the same as both the Castle demo and the code in the archives.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#46]
Perhaps there's some issue with the way you're handling car-to-road collisions?


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#47]
OK, I've switched the tweening back on, because it's identical to the castle demo and therefore MUST work.

However, I've made a version of the game ( http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BR_cutdown.zip ) with all the extraneous stuff turned off, so the trackside collisions are not correct, but there's no extra processing going on behind the scenes. I've also removed the on-screen text and set the graphics mode to 16bit.

Perhaps we can narrow down why using identical tweening code on my program and the castle demo does not produce identically smooth results.

Your help is very much appreciated.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#48]
Interesting... it still jittery but only for the first two corners - after that its fine.

What's the scale you're using? I'm wondering if its something (but not entirely) to do with the old "floats being more innacurate the further you get from 0,0,0" problem?


ErikT(Posted 2005) [#49]
The jerking is back, but not nearly as violent as before. It doesn't stop after the first couple of corners here.


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#50]
Must be something else then, because all the game is doing is tracking the car, checking for checkpoints, then hiding and showing bits of the track.

Hmm, perhaps HIDEENTITY and SHOWENTITY are not as fast as people thought?

Do you get pauses perhaps every 10 car lengths or so? The track is built from sections, like Scalextric, arranged end to end, so when you exit one section and go to the next it updates what sections are visible and what is not. I tried using FREEENTITY and creating new sections, but that was really slow, so currently it's just hiding and showing sections that are pre-created and pre-positioned. Perhaps all these sections, although hidden, are slowing things down too much?

My other guess is that memory allocation issues are present, because I can replicate this jerkiness if I disable mip-mapping, which floods my videocard with textures going back and forth as the track sections become visible. Even forcing textures to VRam doesn't help, and i'm not using that many textures...very odd.

I think that for a long road-race style game, a render system like OpenGL is needed - Blitz's entity system doesn't seem to be able to cope with the dynamic creation and deletion of reasonably complex meshes.

Anyway, I'm moving to a single loaded rallycross-style track mesh, so there will be no need to update a long rally track. for that - we'll have to see if that sorts out your problems. Strange that my slow Athlon with the Geforce 3 doesn't suffer though...


LineOf7s(Posted 2005) [#51]
Do you get pauses perhaps every 10 car lengths or so?


No.

And just for laughs, my experiences seem to be the same as Mr Thon insofar as the jerking doesn't stop after two corners. Needless to say, I've been playing the Tweenless version for a while now, since everything else jerks like a jerky thing. :o)


Paolo(Posted 2005) [#52]
Vorderman:

Your >Blitz Rally No Rendertween.exe<,
WORKS PERFECT NOW IN MY PC from start to end !!!!


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#53]
Eurythmia : Does the Castle demo (which has the same rendertweening I was using) work perfectly on your PC?


Paolo(Posted 2005) [#54]
Yep, it works ok.

I think it is a tweening problem only because when
I was learning how to achieve tweening I got problems
similar to what I see in your demos, but then I applied
the castle code (as it is above) and I never got any
more problem since then ... but since you are using
the same code, I don't know what it could be...

one question,
you said something about "showentity and hideentity",
are you using those command with the car? if so, then
that could be a problem since the tweening code
will try to calculate an intermediate position having
in mind >where< the car was hiden and >where< the
car was shown...


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#55]
OK, I've just re-tested it on my Athlon1.4 and I too am suffering the same jerkiness and stuttering.

I can't really see what's causing it - I've made a new EXE which shows the frame time taken and the frame time left, and this time it's not using render tweening

On my Athlon this shows time taken=2, time left=14/15, so not exactly pushing the capabilities of the PC.

If anyone can try this new method of frame timing and see if the results are better -
http://www.jameskett.dsl.pipex.com/BR_28_02_2005.zip

thanks


GfK(Posted 2005) [#56]
That version seems to work fine here.


Vorderman(Posted 2005) [#57]
Can you try the new version from the newest thread as well ( http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=44358 ) - it's using frame-tweening again but I think I've fixed the stuttering problem.