Best damn idea!... maybe

Community Forums/Showcase/Best damn idea!... maybe

Baystep Productions(Posted 2004) [#1]
What If!!!

Together as a unit. I mean team! Yes a Team! Of BlitzProgrammers! With our fancy hundred dollar toys! Worked togeth... uh, this is gonna fail isn't it. Whatever. Worked together to make the largest, bestest (that's not a word)...
MMORPG!
How could we fail!? No seriously though I'd join that team. We (programmers) have been split up, competing with each other with high proced games. Why can't we work together! (cur tears) To make something that would blow DarkBasic out of the water. Free to. I'm thinkin 3D Wyvern ( www.cabochon.com ). But not as packed as EverQuest, crappy wise.

Revolution Damn It!


Storm8191(Posted 2004) [#2]
...ya know, I'm honestly wanting to team up with someone for a change, and get something useful accomplished. But no way I'm doing a MMORPG. MMORPGs are near impossible to finish. Pick a different kind of project, and... maybe. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

Oh, and I don't think I'm going to freeware route either. I'm not looking to become a millionaire, but I'd still like to earn back the investments I've put into Blitz.

Well, all this is my take on your idea. I'd imagine other people would feel differently. Either way, good luck.


Baystep Productions(Posted 2004) [#3]
I know how you feel, MMORPG would be cool, but I understand about finishing. I'd say an FPS, but seriously, it's a democratic vote, that won't be as hard to decide as a president. And any ways,if it flops. It's not like we loose anything. But if it's a success, bingo jackpot! Freeware. That was just inspiration that failed. Any ways, if 2 heads are better than one. Well more heads is unbeatable. No professional game companies only have 1 or 2 guys workin them! Ex. EA GAMES!


GfK(Posted 2004) [#4]
No professional game companies only have 1 or 2 guys workin them!
There's more to successful games development than the number of people involved.


Rob Farley(Posted 2004) [#5]
I've started 2 community projects that anyone has been welcome to join, currently there is the Alien Breed community project and the Project Plasma community project started by Frank. In the past there has been FLE and a couple of other things too if memory serves.

They do appear, they are questionably successful.

A mmgowoogie thing would be damn near impossible to work as a community project unless someone became a dictator, and it this was the case people would tell you to [insert vulgar language here].

The way I have always got community projects going is by coming up with the basic framework of a game and letting it develop within the community. This seems to be a fairly good way to go about it (imho).

With a mmgoowofjeflubber you'll need to get at least the server and network stuff working very solidly and usable with simple function calls. Once you've got this bit you can build on a modular framework so people can add their own stuff. You'll need a totally flexible type for the character (be it player or Non-player or monster) this way everything works in the same way so building a system will be more fluid and accessable as a community project. It also means people can build on the characters and enhance them without buggering up exisiting code.

Anyway... Good luck, and get coding your network code and server, get that rock solid and come speak to us again. With something we can get a handle on.

If you get this completed it demonstrates that you are committed so other people will be more willing to help. If you are uncapable of coding it then maybe you should lower your sights a little and start a smaller community project.


IPete2(Posted 2004) [#6]
GFK

Sure they do, JP and John Blackledge can individually testify to that! As can I.

IPete2.


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#7]
PCD GUY,

I would love to see more community projects for all sorts of games and applications. I agree with Rob, that some sort of working framework is necessary to attact interest and keep project moving. I know this from first hand in dealing with Project Plasma FPS 2004.

Developing a MMORPG will be a challenge. Managing Updates (media & data), Server Zones, Database Backend, Chat Messaging, NPC Dialog, Character Building & Combat Systems should and will require some planning.

I have intentions developing a 'small scale' MMORPG with the Project PLASMA FPS Engine. By default, the engine should have Bot AI, a complete combat system, Special FX (particles, lens flares, etc), Chat Messaging, Network and Rendering Optimizations. By extending the existing systems, a MMORPG should be within reach of a small team or solo developer.


boomboom(Posted 2004) [#8]
I think the best community projects would be tools that the community can use, rather than games.


Baystep Productions(Posted 2004) [#9]
Hey hey, it was just an Idea I spond from lack of sleep last night. I've herd of Project Plasma, but it seemed a flop. I was hoping to create some inspiration in some passer-by that had an Idea. We could work of something like that. And Dictatorship, possibly. But not to harsh, just someone to organize it. To say you build the levels, you build the charecters, and you run the chat and etc. etc.

Plato my man! You do what your best at.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#10]
After getting to "MMORPG" I quit reading... :P

And I agree with boomboom. :)


9572AD(Posted 2004) [#11]
Not to piss on your parade or anyhting, but I fail to see why it is that everybody seems to want to tackle an MMORPG as their first project. I don't even like MMORPGs...there's gotta be more people than me that don't. Besides, it's a HUGE SCALE project. Just seems a little crazy.


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#12]
In defense of PCD Guy, I dont see why a MMORPG similar to Wyvern cannot be developed as a Community Project.


Rob Farley(Posted 2004) [#13]
Personally I think anything could be created as a community project, you've just got to have the right head and an idea of how it will fit together before you start, basically what I'm saying is to tackle something big you've got to have done a few projects first so you know what you're dealing with before you start. I'm not a fan of mmgrovrjiowignsadf4fgs games but many many people are so I don't see any reason to discourage anyone from having a pop at it.


_PJ_(Posted 2004) [#14]
If this was to become an actuality, it would demand a whole lot of careful planning before anyone even looks at a keyboard. With so many people working on a project, each one needs to be fully aware of :

a) What exactly, and to what extent they are responsible for (to the letter)

b) The format and syntax standard to be used throughout for the entirety of the code structure

c) An overview of the mission brief to assess how all parts will fit-together

d) The proposed style, gameplay, final perspective, script, and other details of the finished product.

At least.

As Rob says there,
you've just got to have the right head and an idea of how it will fit together before you start,

This is the hardest part, because otherwise all the pieces will not fit, people will disagree or argue over points, or if someone leaves/takes over from another, they may notr be able to follow on with the code.

_________________________________________________

Oh and finally, set your boundaries realistically in the initial instance.

Just aim towards a finished product. Other ideas can be added eventually. It is also often the way with such projects to become inundated with more and more revolutionary ideas so that the core coding gets forgotten.


_PJ_(Posted 2004) [#15]
Sidenote: I would happily join a project to accomplish this, perhaps contributing what I have completed towards the Teutanis Project so far, except looking at that "Wyvern", I hope that's not similar to the aim. I dont see how its Role Playing with all the charactyers saying things like 'This is Kewl', 'LOL' and 'how do you take screenshots' not to mention hearing characters that are nowhere nearby....

still - this is irrelevant.


Rob Farley(Posted 2004) [#16]
Malice has actually hit upon a few key points there.

Function names and syntax naming has to be agreed from the outset, Alien Breed has no such conventions and we should have done this from the start to make it easier to contribute.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#17]
I've also started a WWIII community project, based in 2025, but there are only a couple followers - Me, myself, and I.

I guess no one likes sci-fi.


Ross C(Posted 2004) [#18]
I think the person leading such a project, has to have a good bit of experience with blitz and have produced something before people join. I tried doing a community project once. I got about 8 ppl on it sort of, but i really didn't know how to handle the project, so it flopped :o)


_PJ_(Posted 2004) [#19]
Yeah the whole project needs to be planned out from start to finish before anything begins. Someone needs to oversee the project and to maintain that the plan is followed. This is not dictatorial nor draconic, more like 'refereeing'. This plan needs to be considered extremely carefully and will need to go very in-depth. Most possibilities must be addressed within the plan so that at least the vast majority of situations that may arise can be dealt with quickly in a way which makes sense and is acknowledged by the team.
The plan needs to encompass the game mechanics, storyline, media content and a vision of playability of the finished product as well as the coding structure.

It is essential that contributors are aware of their own strengths and weaknesses in a real sense. There's no point someone saying 'Il do the level design' just to get onboard if they really are not suited to such a task.

The problems usually arise with this sort thing because contributors do not have defined boundaries, and of course, they wish to express their artistic license and individual flare. Such individuality is good and can really improve certain aspects, but without definite boundaries and a dedicated Q&A forum or IRC, the collective as a whole breaks down.


Rob Farley(Posted 2004) [#20]
I think you're a bit pesimistic there Malice, although it depends on the project, Alien Breed is still going strong, I've never said a definate no to anyones idea, some may be put as low priority but everything has generally moved forward. The lack of any forward planning or design has caused a few problems and the code is getting less and less readable due to the lack of standards and documentation.

That said, everyone who has contributed has done so in their own time scale and style and it has worked. This has a lot to do to forseeing things changing and working-in forward compatibility to the code before the ideas had arisin, eg, The players being as types so very flexible, control systems, sound systems, mapping data, etc being external... So the game worked in a simplistic form as well as in it's now advanced state without huge changes to many of it's aspects.


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#21]
I devised some code conventions (rules) for Project Plasma FPS. It provides guidelines for name convention, code integration, file structure, and remarks for docs. Perhaps it can be used as a starting point for establishing some guidelines for this project. Or maybe not.

I attempted to oversee PPF, but found it extremely difficult to get folks to follow the plan. Many suggestions were dismissed as theory. Although I developed tools to generate code, outlined a gameplay doc, outline an engine dev plan, and wrote many demos. I eventually found myself coding alone. I dont recommend a dictator.

If folks agree to the conventions, communicate and collaborate the project work flow should come together autonomously.


_PJ_(Posted 2004) [#22]
Yes, you're right, Rob - I guess my statements do read a little too definitive or something, but they are important for something as possibly open-ended as a MMORPG.

With regards to the Alien Breed remake, you already have a definite template to work with. Alien Breed being a top-down maze game in essence, with collectables and shooting and some minor puzzles. There is very little actal variation because the coders etc. are aware of the original and therefore have a good grasp of what is required.

Look at the following MMORPGS and see how varied they can be......



Eve-Online
Everquest
Anarchy Online
FFxi
Wyvern
Jumpgate


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#23]
What does a MMORPG need? Perhaps we can put together a list of features. Then we can break the features down into small objectives. I see a game dev plan forming:)


scribbla(Posted 2004) [#24]
Personally i think the Alien Breed project should be finished before another communtiy project starts

i think when Rob and the guys get this one in the bag
that speaks volumes

a communtiy project needs a ganger and Rob seems to be the man for the job;)

my 2p worth


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#25]
Personally i think the Alien Breed project should be finished before another communtiy project starts
Theres are more than enough folks in the community to work on another community project or many other projects for that matter. Some folks desire to work on Shooter, FPS, or MMORPG. I don't see any logical reason why another project cant be in the works. Afterall, Rob may not desire to work on MMORPG.


Rob Farley(Posted 2004) [#26]
For the next project (after alien breed) as tiler suggested a while ago I quite like the idea of a 3rd person platformer.


BlackD(Posted 2004) [#27]
a 3rd person platformer? as opposed to.. a first person platformer? how about just "a platformer" ;)

Anyway, a MMORPG is a great idea, but it's a huge project that would take a long time. Personally, I wanna see an RTS community project. :)

+BlackD


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#28]
I've been planning out everything. I have like a full demo ready, everything is in place except for AI, yet no one wants to start on it.

And heck yeah, an RTS community project would rock.


scribbla(Posted 2004) [#29]
>Rob
For the next project (after alien breed) as tiler suggested a while ago I quite like the idea of a 3rd person platformer


>Optomistic
a 3rd person platformer? as opposed to.. a first person platformer? how about just "a platformer" ;)


i think i did actualy say that..a 3rd person platformer..ok a fun 3d platformer ;)


also what is a RTS

edit[ahhhhh just googled RTS.... Real time strategy] doh


Mustang(Posted 2004) [#30]
MMORPG? You guys are nuts... usually teams that are formed through forums like this can't even finish bad Tetris-clone... :) No offense, but you are thinking WAY too big here. Gigantism, or something like that. Start small and prosper.


boomboom(Posted 2004) [#31]
I think the next community project should be something like an easy database system, a really nice terrain editor or a level editor, something that the community can then use in thier own projects and contribute too, rather than a game.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#32]
And something that could be released for free. Any community project should be released for free. It's the laws of nature.

And maybe the best community project would to be to put all the community projects together - and make an external set of DLLs and functions to optimize speed, apply physics, particles, etc.

It would be so useful. That's my idea. A bundle of programming toys. I think that should be the next community project.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#33]
Not a game - a game ENGINE!


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#34]
Now all someone has to do is start one.


Bob3d(Posted 2004) [#35]
I think something like a 3d street fighter would be much more doable(mor esuccesful is skinnable, customizable, like to mod it:perhaps "try" a 2 player only mode,by LAN or inet. That could bring some adiction if it were made for be easy to skin or modify models,levels (ie, making characters in3d, and background in 2d, old style, would allow more than one 2d guy make new "scrolling sceneries" , while the 3d ppl make new characters.) ). I wouldn't get involved (in any comunity project, I like the concept, but i'm busy now...) but would love to see that.

Who knows...some people may end up doing some mechs, adding some code for "tunning"(adding parts, etc, wooden made machines for modded versions, who knows) for them depending on points,levels, etc, but that could be an evolution of a basic thing.

Dunno, not hijaking the therad, but just as I only agree in the part that comunity projects "can" end up with nice things.

The key is have a basic thing working, and then see if it works. there's also the issue some ppl just don't like a type of games...if wouldn't be dedicating my art time to comercial projects(or fixing pcs, etc), and I had the free time...I probably would not get involved with existing projects...they look good, but one has also to like the type or ambience choosen in game. So, it's good if there are several.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#36]
Well, I certainly dont't have the capability.


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#37]
Bob3D,

I always wanted to dev a 3DFighter. In fact, I wanted to do a MORPG with 3DFighter Style Hand-to-hand/Melee combat, FPS Weapon/Projectile Combat, and Cinematic Spell Effects. I know it sounds like a great deal, however, IMHO its merely a matter of camera perspectives and with 3D thats trivial.

I'm all for working on a generic multi-player engine with combined features for FPS, RTS, RPG, and Fighter. Its one of many reasons why Project PLASMA FPS must be completed. A modular multiplayer FPS is great starting framework to build these other genres on top of.

Another Community Project Idea I had was for a Networked Multi-user Level Editor in which multiple users could build a 3D world together via the internet. Such a editor would allow teams to collaborate world building more effeciently. I would suspect that such editor would require practically the same tools a MMORPG Game would - content update system, chat, etc.

There is a great deal of Free source code in the code archives that go into a community project and for the life of me I dont understand why more Blitzers dont collaborate.

If one really takes time to think about it, they're many common tools and features shared between game generes and applications. A 3DFighter game obviously employs independent collision per limb, a FPS shooter would also employ independent collision per limb to apply damage to specific body part. Why cant a collision system be designed to support both applications?

A Inventory System resides at the core of a RPG character building sytem. Dont you need some kind of inventory management in RTS or FPS. Hell, you could use one in Fighter if you desired. Why cant a Inventory Management System be designed to support all applications?

I could go on and on about common features between games and applications, but, rambling will not get us anywhere. So lets take action instead! Lets sit down and come up with a list of features, find the common ones, find code or write code that can implement the feature. We can tweak as we go and add bonus features later.

There are a couple of Community Projects that have conventions in place, a todo list, a forum thread, and a coordinator. Thats all it takes to create a project and get it moving. Even if the project doesn't fully mature theres a lot of useful information, code, and media thats yielded that could be used elsewhere. Thats what community projects are about.

See, its really only a matter of camera perspective.


Clarks(Posted 2004) [#38]
potential problem:

alot of reasons why programmers start projects and never finish is because they forget that computers are stupid. if you do not tell a computer what to do, it will do nothing. a lot of programmers start projects and if you ask them for some kind of blueprint to the project, they dont have one. you need blueprints people and good ones too. im not an advanced programmer but i surely learned the hard way. an MMORPG or whatever the name. wheres the blueprint, can i see it. oh i forget, you dont have one. blitz programmers have the power to use types and dont even take advantage of it. they have the power to use banks and dont even take advantage of it. they dont even do enough planning on projects thats why the projects are never completed or the projects are missing some important features. for instance a gui. look at how many gui's are currently sitting in the toolbox. how many of them are completed, how many of them are still being worked on. catch my point. if you dont you must be stupid. anyway my point is this. you need to carefully plan the project including everything thats needed. im not saying that i expect you to plan the whole project first then start coding. but atleast enough of it. you need to carefully plan the project giving with everything in mind. i mean everything, so that you can group similarities to create functions that can handle multiple parts of your code, so that you wont be coding the same code more than once.


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#39]
anyway my point is this. you need to carefully plan the project including everything thats needed. im not saying that i expect you to plan the whole project first then start coding. but atleast enough of it. you need to carefully plan the project giving with everything in mind. i mean everything, so that you can group similarities to create functions that can handle multiple parts of your code, so that you wont be coding the same code more than once.

is equal to
Lets sit down and come up with a list of features, find the common ones, find code or write code that can implement the feature. We can tweak as we go and add bonus features later.



ckob(Posted 2004) [#40]
as long as you have design documents and flowcharts even 1 coder could make an MMO you dont need millions of dollers and a 500 person team. There has been a couple mmo's to date that have shown this.


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#41]
I think an online world builder would be really cool.

So....are we going to start this one?


Clarks(Posted 2004) [#42]
not in a million years


Conan(Posted 2004) [#43]
That'd be, like, real cool!
When do we start?

Hey, how bout this?
Step1) Online World Builder
Step2) Online Character Maker
Step3) Online Script Maker
Step4) Online Animator
Step5) MMORPG!!!

Yes, i'm crazy, and delirious, but it can still be done!

EDIT: btw, I AM currently doing An Online Dynamic Coder(kinda like coding in b3d, but you get the results in real-time, The Online part will be based on Array Transfers)


Techlord(Posted 2004) [#44]
I think an online world builder would be really cool.

So....are we going to start this one?
Interested Parties go here!


wizzlefish(Posted 2004) [#45]
Woohoo!

I'm interested - although I am working on my own project, I'll try to contribute to this one too.


Bob3d(Posted 2005) [#46]
" Bob3D,

I always wanted to dev a 3DFighter. In fact, I wanted to do a MORPG with 3DFighter Style Hand-to-hand/Melee combat, FPS Weapon/Projectile Combat, and Cinematic Spell Effects. I know it sounds like a great deal, however, IMHO its merely a matter of camera perspectives and with 3D thats trivial."

Would be fun. :) But thinking it twice, is a compelx thing...even a basic 2d background based sf2 with 3d characters, has its complexity...It's better to actually work when u know u can end stuff.

"Another Community Project Idea I had was for a Networked Multi-user Level Editor in which multiple users could build a 3D world together via the internet. Such a editor would allow teams to collaborate world building more effeciently. I would suspect that such editor would require practically the same tools a MMORPG Game would - content update system, chat, etc."

The idea sounds well, (I have replied in the new thread) just that it all seems too big...perhaps.

"There is a great deal of Free source code in the code archives that go into a community project and for the life of me I dont understand why more Blitzers dont collaborate."

Ehm...I don't know the younger ones, but I myself I'm using the free time I isolate for 3d to just projects that can see a kind of comercial gain...


"If one really takes time to think about it, they're many common tools and features shared between game generes and applications. A 3DFighter game obviously employs independent collision per limb, a FPS shooter would also employ independent collision per limb to apply damage to specific "

Actually, it was the collision system for UT 2003, if I remember well.

"body part. Why cant a collision system be designed to support both applications?

A Inventory System resides at the core of a RPG character building sytem. Dont you need some kind of inventory management in RTS or FPS. Hell, you could use one in Fighter if you desired. Why cant a Inventory Management System be designed to support all applications?"

A more generic framework, to ease work to most people, you are saying. Why not..if the teamwork was done in a dynamical and fun way, it could work. I have no time for free projects for now, but the idea is good.

"Blitz Community Projects: Project PLASMA FPS 2005, PersistentWorld3D, Alien Breed Remake, BlitzBasic Code Archives"


There are people that surely would not get involved, but some bored day would may some bit. If a comunity project is as flexible as that, I think it can grab more help. How to make useful the help of a casual wanderer...I don't know...If its a pair of really clever lines, a routine, or a good small bit of art, maybe even worth it.

A "chalk board" in 3d, where you can edit in a 3d space where others are editing, sounds interesting thing to see.

Something of these was mentioned by some Blender in certain Blender forums, a while ago. But I think I wouldn't like Blender for that...

Perhaps yes a modeller of the style of wings...

But my issue with editors, never give u enough control...so...would be good if one could...em...extract a mesh from the virtual space... edit it in ur favourite editor...even uv map it...texture it even...and then...have a kind of button to upload the changed mesh, with same name, and a texture also.

The fact is...this is what would make it really interesting. A kind of thing like some existing 3d comunities (rwx, vrml, etc) but allowing editing. You can navigate...have some very basic interaction (ie: some very basic text chat to coordinate a bit with ppl) and...ability to EDIT the meshes.

Actually..would way much more simpler to do it so. Not add modelling features, other than move/rotate full objects(meshes, entities, how u call it) , as u would be importing an improved mesh. Things necesary would be force a rescale, if it detects the scale is not 1:1 (some users dont know how to do it) , it will force it to an scale. (to avoid...surprises..)

While this is interesting...I'd now then that all what i edit/create there, would be rippeable/stolen by anyone, so, I'd : a) do just quick, fun hacks of meshes, yet useful.... b) I'd be paid for my work:as u're getting some payment, u don't mind that much the stealing...Surely u wont do ur master piece of art , your main piece in ur portfolio and put it there.... I doubt payment would be that high.

Sorry if I always speak bout $. But seems many coders do their work here to earn some bucks, so I see no harm.

Also, a lot of people just would like to play and contribute freely, don't think this opinion would represent any significative number...more than anything, quite a minority.

I meant, i myself if find something like that, wouldn't do anything good -for what I consider good- freely. But just play a bit. But that's me.

As I said, the editor idea sounds interesting.