Monkey2 or MonkeyX2 or BlitzX or ????
Community Forums/Monkey2 Talk/Monkey2 or MonkeyX2 or BlitzX or ????
| ||
| As you know many people are not fans of the name "Monkey" (I don't mind it)... so will you consider changing Monkey2's name? Maybe run a poll so your fans (and you do have fans!) decide... Just an idea :) |
| ||
| I agree with this. Monkey is a "fun" name, but I know people who have been put off by it, seeing it as a toy language. |
| ||
| Why not just call it Amon. In my opinion there's no finer name. |
| ||
| 'C Hash' and 'Wii' did all right! Anyway, this isn't a 'commercial' project... http://marksibly.blogspot.co.nz/ ...so I'll call it 'bollock face' if I want! |
| ||
| lol |
| ||
| Anyway, this isn't a 'commercial' project... Sorry, so how do we take that? Is Monkey2 going to be a serious project? |
| ||
| Have you read my blog? Yes, I'm serious about monkey2, but I'm going about things a different way this time. |
| ||
| Yes Mark I have and I am excited about it, but by saying stuff like its not a commercial project (which I know it isn't in one sense but in another it is) and saying you could call it 'bollock face' doesn't inspire confidence or professionalism. |
| ||
| Bollock face! I like it :-) Xcellence, 2Xtreme |
| ||
| Chill out friends. Quit Monkeying around, take a deep breath and lets not turn something positive in to a mess. I'm thinking Mark may have been on some level annoyed and offended by the opening and second post as they both gave the impression that Monkey is a toy with a stupid name. When reading Marks blog you only have to look at certain sentence structures, which differ from the harmony of the rest of the blog post, to ascertain that Mark isn't happy with Monkey and how it has evolved. The last thing I would expect, in fact it would warrant a similar post, is posts telling me my creation is considered a Toy and that its given name is stupid. Now on a side note, I agree that the post made by mark is unprofessional, in fact it's the first time I've seen a post like that from Mark, which further shows his annoyance at how Monkey has evolved and shows that, much like all of us would be if it were us, would strike back with a similar post when some thing we poured our heart in to is called a toy with a stupid name. |
| ||
| Actually...bollock face might just work better :)... At least it'll catch on a lot of attention :). |
| ||
| Amon, IMHO special consideration should also be given to the cadence and timbre of both the opening, closing and intermediary sections. Also, I was very interested to see the spelling of bollock not use the more formal bollox form. or is that plural? |
| ||
| marksibly: so I'll call it 'bollock face' if I want! Well it worked for Brainfuck! ;-) |
| ||
| You could always call it Clitoris, with all those coming out of the closet lately it could spark a revolution of female coders. |
| ||
| (Oops, I TOTALLY didn't post all that into the wrong topic!!) Naming suggestions Monkey 2 - Electric Boogaloo....... .... ??! BRTech Sibtran Um.. *shrugs* |
| ||
| Mark doesn't have to be "professional" for a product you don't have to buy. You'll just have to evaluate the 'product' for what it is and decide if it suits your needs. |
| ||
| I feel almost foolish even mentioning it as a new name is so obvious... Brian! With the the exclamation mark as it adds that extra bit of class...! |
| ||
| Gorilla. Its like a monkey, but better ;) Calling it Monkey2 might create expectations about features carrying over. |
| ||
| I don't have any hatret toward the monkey name, it just gets me odd looks from everyone that I tell about me programming in monkey. They seem to think I'm brainwashing Apes. |
| ||
| I vote for Blitzmax 2 OR BlitzX (X being cross platform :) ) |
| ||
| BlitzX sounds fine to me. Or maybe something like BlitzNext. |
| ||
| BlitzX is fine. I would set aside 'BlitzNext' for the next time... ;) |
| ||
| What about just Blitz? |
| ||
| I never understood why people had their sticks up their ___ over the name Monkey, honestly I thought it was perfect for what it was. Understated, but in-line with other modern language names. It almost had an air at one point like it was a Xamarin project, considering the cross-platform nature. It wouldn't be the first language named after an animal (see: Python), and it certainly has a better name than "bollock face" (Nimrod probably changed its name because it sounded like an insult as well). Y'all who are still stuck on that need to stop looking at a simple, nice looking box and wanting to put fins and rear spoilers on it, if I may be blunt! Adding the "X" sounded like a capitulation to these types, and it does actually get my goat a little bit since the best crop of new languages seem to have easy to remember names and don't give a flying monkey poo about things like one-word SEO. The name carves its own niche and people respect something simple more than they respect a "look at me" flashy marketing name like BoldFusion Evolution or Flynndows ME |
| ||
| Blitz also sounds right. |
| ||
| Blitz on its own would be pretty cool... "Coded in Blitz", "I wrote this in Blitz"... not that bothered, though! |
| ||
| @Nobuyuki If I dare speak for everyone, we in the Blitz community don't have a personal problem with the name Monkey. It's when we try to turn people outside of the community onto Monkey that the name becomes a problem. They won't even trouble themselves to take a look at it, so whether it annoys Mark or not, the fact remains that the name is an obstacle to getting programmers to consider Monkey. |
| ||
| I still like Monkey as a name, but no one can deny Monkey's marketing was a mess (not discounting the effort to improve it over time). Before there was the problem with the domain name too. monkeycoder.co.nz I suspect that a real reason behind "Monkey X" which I still mostly refuse to use is that the .com for it was available. |
| ||
| CGV: The biggest problem I had with showing people Monkey were that they laughed at how the container classes were implemented. Probably too wise to go after the BASIC-style syntax, 'cause them's fightin' words to me. And honestly, most people who have had that sorta pushback on the language "not looking mature" when evangelizing Monkey to their peers are probably dealing with codgers, anyway. That's why many of these "good" projects have BDFLs to lay down the final word on the matter; you'd almost invariably end up in endless rounds of open-source drama otherwise! It's amazing how many coders subscribe to canonical RightThink while still giving off the impression that they are open-minded. I think if there are still many people using BMax today who haven't switched to Monkey for reasons that it's not as powerful or convenient, 'monkey2' should probably bring that base over and help to evangelize this. Going a more traditional open-source model from the beginning will definitely help its adoption as well. Everyone else who isn't on-board are either too set in their ways, or simply don't find what it's offering as attractive to them vs. what they can already get elsewhere. The niche will definitely expand, however, when monkey2 supports most of bmax's most-wanted features with a minimal amount of externs, and the same goes for when everything is released open-source. |
| ||
BlitzBollox.........there it's settled.  |
| ||
nonsense; he'd need brass balls to go through with a name like that! |
| ||
| I like Monkey name a lot. I prefer it over Blitz. But that's maybe just me... ? |
| ||
| @ziggy: definitely just you... well, maybe Mark too! |
| ||
| BlitzNext actually sounds pretty cool. I don't know about "Blitz" on its own though. I sometimes use that as an abbreviation for BlitzMax, and it's possible others do too. |
| ||
| I vote for: サル 2 |
| ||
| Mark doesn't have to be "professional" for a product you don't have to buy. From my understanding Mark still wants to make his living from making these tools, so he does have to be professional. Right now there are so many different tools on the market which are free or opensource. If I were in Mark's shoes I would be wanting to look at "lessons learnt" from the initial release of Monkey 1 and what went wrong, so I could look at not repeating these issues again with Monkey 2... |
| ||
| @ziggy: definitely just you... well, maybe Mark too! Agrees on this. |
| ||
| +1 for BlitzNext. The Blitz brand has a story, started from glorious Amiga times. BlitzNext. The more I read it, the more I like it. :) |
| ||
| I like Monkey fine, but Blitz is still recognized and has goodwill. I think Blitz X, Blitz Next or BlitzMax 2 would all work. |
| ||
| I like Monkey name a lot. I prefer it over Blitz. But that's maybe just me... ? yo |
| ||
| I like Monkey just fine, nothing wrong with it! But for some reason I like BlitzMax 2 |
| ||
| @impixi: I vote for: サル 2 Don't worry, I got your joke. :) |
| ||
| Just "Blitz". It doesn't need a qualifier. |
| ||
| Actually Blitz on its own has a nice ring to it and sound like Unity, etc :) |
| ||
| I still think that using some variation of an existing name (Blitz, Monkey, etc.) immediately brings in expectations of "it should work like this other language, why doesn't it?" I believe a fresh name with partial support for Monkey source would be the best option. |
| ||
| Diana |
| ||
| You mean like Diana by Paul Anka (1957)? |
| ||
| Maybe he talked about Did invent another new abbreviation (which of course should be) Diana is another new acronym bye Ron |
| ||
| MonkeyXI |
| ||
| MonkeyX is monkey 1. He should name it maybe influenced by his favorite framework. Boom2d BlitzPyro2d Fireworks2d Bomb2d Nitro2d Something along those lines would make sence. |
| ||
| @Mike: You sound angry. What's the problem? Don't you like that Mark continues to work on MonkeyX and Monkey2 and Mojo2, after the little break? Can't we expect a new book from you about MonkeyX or Monkey2? Sounds like you already gave up, and almost every comment by you sounds angry and negative... |
| ||
| monkey@... Drop me a mail, then i let you know. |
| ||
| What about: "Codr" "Sintak" "Basik" "Fuel" "Swizzle" "Munglate" "Mungr" |
| ||
| Swizzle is a shader term :v I'd hope we could support swizzling if we end up using this name! |
| ||
| I like BlitzMax 2 or BlitzX or something along those lines. Definitely a great history there, and it makes finding stuff on teh search enginez much easier! |
| ||
| Swizzle is a shader term :v I'd hope we could support swizzling if we end up using this name! Also term used to replace methods of a class at runtime. Figured monkey converts 1 language to another so in a way it's swizzling. Thinking of it, why not call it "mojo"? That's a good name, has positive reinforcement and sounds fairly "hip". Or "voodoo"? |
| ||
| Still with MX2 here. |
| ||
| @Skn3: Or "voodoo"? Voodoo was actually the working title for Diddy until therevills changed my mind. :) |
| ||
| Well, on patreon page there is only one name: monkey2. (no bmx3,no mx2, no bltizbullocks or else :D) Also the link to patreon-page https://www.patreon.com/monkey2 is quite clear. The funny thing is, if you look in patreon for 'monkey2' the result is Mark Sibly (the word monkey2 is included in the summary of the page). Probably blitzbullocks was not accepted while registering the page! I can find a constant in every BRL products :) ps: i tried for Blitz (and variant) - too many results. It seems that you need to be very 'specific' while looking for something in Patreon. Or people know who are you and what is your project, or you get lost (as in every other funding system I think). Of course this is not the right thread (and maybe forum?!) to speak of 'marketing', but a fundamental principle in any 'business' (moreover in opens-source/free project!) is to be known. The BRL userbase is too restricted for the financial system chosen by Mark. I know it's too early for conclusions, but in two/three months I think another 'help' to Mark and his creation is needed (I mean in term of marketing, diffusion etc Cheers! |
| ||
| I think the name change from plain "Monkey" to "MonkeyX" was good (just "Monkey" isn't a good product name IMO), so I hope Mark may rethink removing the 'X'. MonkeyX 2 / MX2. @degac: The product isn't available yet, so most likely some people are waiting for the release. And then, if they find the project useful, more people will support it over time... :) Also, outsiders searching for "blitz" and "monkey" are most likely not looking for a programming language. You must already know that this words have something to do with programming, because that's not obvious. |
| ||
| "Monkey X" works as a nice top tier product brand name... so umbrella for Monkey1, Monkey2, Mojo1, Mojo2 ... |
| ||
| @Danilo I don't want to derail this thread or create unuseful controversy, I just want to clear out my opinion (and ideally give and hand to the project). First, there is (and will) no 'product', just a project (free), financially sustained using patreon. Ok and perfect. The name is already chosen: monkey2. With the key 'programming language' you will find as first result (atm) Mark Sibly (no monkey or whatever) - category SOFTWARE (and this category is not even shown in the home page of patreon). So patreon is just an end point: if you know what are you looking for, you will find (probably). And I agree with your final sentence .. 'that's not obvious'. I just stressed out that - at the moment - only the BRL userbase known of the existence of this project. And as for every other BRL projects, a lack of marketing - even and MORE for a free-project - is not a good move. Believe that the 'usefulness' of MX2 will grant the success of the project, excuse me, is quite naive (no doubt about Mark Sibly's programming skills, just a fact of market, there is plenty of free projects around). About the name: I know MX2 is still a WIP. I understood that in some way *could* be compatible with MX1, but nothing is really clear at the moment. Maybe my logic is wrong, but if I call a thing MX2 I believe it has/offers MORE than MX1... but this is not true: less target support, no HTML5, etc. So the name - clearly - is not a very good choice. In the end: 1. I don't know if Mark has interest in the final name of MX2. 2. Clearly - based on 10+ years of BRL/Blitz3d/BlitxMax :) - marketing is not a primary element for BRL/Mark strategy. 3. 44 people (at the moment) can't grant an 'income' in the long term. (I really hope - and know - the number will grow up!!!) - I'm happy to 'finance' (very low I must admit!) but none knows the future! 4. this is more complicated: for Monkey(X) there is a dedicated webpage/forum/app-store etc. All the things you expect from a modern software application. I hope (really) that MX2 will not relegated in a sub-forum in this site. it must live alone, outside, far from this. And I hope not in a sourceforge.com page or similar. 5. when (or if..) point 1) and point 4) are cleared out, it will be possible to decide a marketing strategy. Of course these are my opinions, and I don't say they are right: sure this is not the right time and place to post maybe, but in daily work I must take and suggest decisions for the future: and I found that trying to forecast possible problems is the best solution to avoid them. I just think that Mark has is 'own' goal: create/improve MX2. Other people could help in other way (with financial support for example, or thinking about documentation or website or creating specific tools or whatever could be useful for spreading MX2). BMX was the first community-created BRL product: just think to modules or Brucey & at and their work about BMX-NG compiler. With MX2 community is called to make a bigger step I think. In any case, have a nice weekend! |
| ||
| The problem with Monkey is that when searching for that (even when looking for programming problems) is hard to see inherent results pop up. Adding the X helps but not so much, since it's a single letter word that many search engines don't really know how to interpret. Citing C, C++, C# and similar is not a valid counter-argument, cause those are languages with an astounding user base and half the programmers on the internet write about those ones. But more than the name we should think about the end product. I think special efforts should go toward increasing the user base as much as possible, cause we would find more volunteers willing to improve the documentation, creating tutorials, spread the word, blogging... you know what I mean. 1) Open sourcing as much as possible. 2) Hassle-free as much as possible. This includes a "download, install and ready to go" Tools. This shouldn't just be a language with an "IDE" (I hardly would call a text editor with syntax highlighting, search/replace and a build command an IDE), it should come with all the basic tools people nowadays expect by default. This is something that Blitz-family products always lacked. Now, since making all those tools by oneself is perhaps not possible, being able to *easily* integrate people's own tools or let them communicate with the Monkey infrastructure would be good (IDE, debugger, build chain, etc.) Which brings the next point: 3) Comprehensive and easily accessible documentations and tutorials. This cannot be overlooked. It's unacceptable to go to the online docs, try to figure out what's wrong and discover that the docs are outdated, after looking for help in the forums. Like the comments in the source code always have to be up-to-date, so even more have the docs. 4) Roadmap, frequent releases (even nightly builds rather than nothing), and most importantly constant communication with the users. Be present. Show you are on the piece. It doesn't have to be "reply to every single post in the forums", but simply posting some development news, thoughts, plans, etc... not disappearing for months without leaving a single word. Sometimes the "it's just a for-fun project" pops out. Even if it's just a for-fun project, when people start helping in all areas of the project, it's just going to improve quicker. It's also a matter of motivation. Besides, if you didn't want people to become involved you shouldn't have made it public in the first place. Without modules like the XML library, Box2D port and others I bet many of us wouldn't be still here now. Diddy, Ignition, and more awesome stuff... passionate users make the difference. See point 1 as a reply to "but it's just a one-man project!" Thoughts? :) |
| ||
| @degac: I understand your concerns, but personally I think at this time it's more important to discuss the features and possibilities of the language/compiler project itself. It's still the planning phase, discussing and collecting ideas for improvement so to say - before the first Alpha/Beta version... ;) It's just 3 weeks that Monkey2 was announced and gets discussed, and 4 days for the patreon stuff. |
| ||
| @Danilo: no doubt that my post is too 'early'. But I think having ideas clear at the start is a good thing, in any situation. @itto: Good points. You posted an example of what I mean. We have experience from the past and it will be very stupid making the same errors. IDE & setup thing (from Monkeyx) became an important asset: I think these things should be addressed at the start. This means that Mark has more time to focus on the language itselfs, while other 'minor' things are done by someone else 'authorized' by Mark supervision. That's all. There is another thread about debugging. This is another thing I (all?) really need. In Bmax/B3d it worked without problems. In MonkeyX it was a problem indeed of a solution! (due of course to the multi-target logic!) Same (quite) for documentation: of course in case of an evolving language things are ... liquid, so a useful and definitive solution should be taken. It's clear Mark cannot do anything. He's good, but he's not a god! :D My idea is just to split things: what Mark want/should do, and what must/should be done by others. Many of this (simple, stupid?) things could defined already: ie for documentation. Mark should decide what are his ideas (in-source information ala BMax and link online for an extended version) etc. Really, I don't have a 'solution', I just want to remember that some of these annoying things (IDE,debug and documentation for example) could/should be already resolved/addressed! Less problems for the future. Then you can return to the discussion about syntax/features and so on! ps: already 3 weeks? Wow, time flies!!! |
| ||
| I do like the idea of the language still being called Monkey, since it sorta imposes a ubiquity to the language that specific product names couldn't do -- Dismiss the power of that at your own peril! Unfortunately, it's true that it's difficult to market unless you actually do have dominant mindshare for that specific name. That's why some companies take a route that lets them have it both ways -- giving their flagship product a ubiquitous name, and then adding a little marketing suffix to it to indicate the specific product's generation or market segment. Nintendo 3ds, Windows XP, Tide Basic, Pepsi MAX. How about Monkey MX2? Then people can call it Monkey when referring to it or the general language family, and MX2 when referring specifically to monkey2. |
| ||
| Why have the Monkey monika at all. Catchy lettering that means bugger all or anything you want can work better. MLX/MXL (aka Monkey Language eXtreme), MSXL (Mark Sibly X Langauge) though Microsoft may b*tch about the use of MS. |
| ||
| +1 BlitzNext. |
| ||
| +1 MX2 |
| ||
| Can we not called it "Sibley" or "Project Sibley"? Does't have any immediate negative connotations that some associated with "Monkey" and sound a little more, dare I say, grown up? |
| ||
| I suspect no matter what any one posts on here. Mark already has a name in mind, but I still like "so I'll call it 'bollock face' if I want!". |
| ||
| If you guys can't come to an agreement what the new name should be, I'll continue to use MX2 and MonkeyX 2. 'MX2' actually sounds cool. :D |
| ||
| YABL... Yet Another Bloody Language! :P hehehe I do jest... I'm just looking forward to a play of the thing! ;) Dabz |
| ||
| I'm pretty much going to just call it MX2 no matter what when referring to it :). |
| ||
| If everyone calls it MX2 and refers to Monkey-X version 1 as MX1 it will probably stick. I prefer a descriptive grammar vs the prescriptive grammar. Let the public determine proper vocabulary ! And Mark already picked Monkey2 or Monkey-X2, so however we shorten it is our prerogative. |
| ||
| Can we not called it "Sibley" or "Project Sibley"? Can't see Marc going for this... |
| ||
| Can't see Marc going for this... LOL |
| ||
| Supertino: Can we not called it "Sibley" or "Project Sibley"? DruggedBunny: Can't see Marc going for this... Especially since neither of you guys can spell his name correctly. :) |
| ||
| I... |
| ||
| Especially since neither of you guys can spell his name correctly. :) That's not your call to make! It's Marc Sibley's. |
| ||
| Especially since neither of you guys can spell his name correctly. :) Looks like you didn't get the sarcasm ;) |
| ||
| Lol! Sarcasm is the highest form of wit. What about a spin on MX2, "Monex", "Mox", "Moxie", "Emex", "Emux", "Emc2"... |
| ||
| All I can say is, please, don't call it COBOL |
| ||
| Monkey:Reloaded: it seems the best meaning for MX2 project (just read about the last post of Mark in this thread) Or MBX (MonkeyBlitzNext) - it's an acronyms of BMX! |
| ||
| Bloody hell... just call it Monkey 2 already. It's the name of the forum and everyone is referring to it as such anyway. XD |
| ||
| We want MX2 to succeed that's why I started this thread. Mark has done some lessons learned regarding the technical issues in MX1, but I wonder about the marketing part of what caused MX1 not to achieve global world domination!! ;-) Lots of people complained about the Monkey name.... |
| ||
| I complained about the unnecessary X added to mx1. It didn't help seo and adding a dash in your domain is even worse, but with that being said, the acronym MX2 speaks to me and I'm willing to bet will become the de facto shorthand for Monkey2. And with a de facto name, we've naturally stumbled upon an optimal marketing buzzword... |
| ||
| Count me in on that one. MX2! |
| ||
| Just to chip in... I like the MX2 thing myself... I'm one of them that thought "monkey" was a bit "meh", and would of probably liked the name "Munter" thing Mr S uses instead... It obviously means different things in New Zealand, where here in the UK it means ugly person "I wouldn't touch her, she's a proper munter" (as an example), but it would of been a nice bit of jest! :) lol Munter-X FTW ;) Dabz |
| ||
| I think there´s potential here for an amazing language which could be not just *a* multi-platform but a major one. It really needs a catchy title one that´s easy to google and to remember and to pronounce, and a name that gives it the respect it deserves for a long time. MX2 kind of sounds far too generic for a newcomer, and that "2" makes it sound as if it´s a bad sequel to a previous language that needs also a 3:rd sequel before it works properly and is worth trying out. Maybe MXP (worked for PHP?) M for multi-platform (and Monkey) X for extendible P for programming language |
| ||
| Not sure I like this as much but here goes another idea LAVA Thinking of upcoming Vulkan.This could pinpoint interest in most people when the time comes. |
| ||
| well the Name "monkey" is cool, but the Problem is that it is not possible to Google anything about this. so if someone try to find something via Google, stackoverflow or whatever with the search term "monkey" or even "monkey-x" then he will find one of all the other thounsand Projects related to programming, game-engine, game programming, Java script, and so on. so one important Thing by finding a Name is to check if it is not in use so much by other things/Project related to the same Topic. |
| ||
| I like Monkey 2, and with Google you can find pictures about monkeys and some hot babes too, it's all inclusive. Visiting the monkeys in the zoo feels a little bit different since Monkey as well. |
   |