Monkey 3D

Community Forums/Monkey Talk/Monkey 3D

(tu) ENAY(Posted 2017) [#1]
Uhoh, looks like Mark has tipped his hat, he's going to actually have to make a 3D module after all it seems. LOL

Personally I'm really happy at the news. And look forward to seeing what he comes up with.


Naughty Alien(Posted 2017) [#2]
..i hope it works out well for both, Monkey community as well as Mark...i wish i have some enthusiasm about all that, but for some reason, it just doesn't 'resonate' well..i guess, time will tell..


(tu) ENAY(Posted 2017) [#3]
I'm not sure if Mark's Patreon messages are considered to be private but, from his response he seems surprised to be suddenly earning that much money each month, it has certainly more than doubled the last time I looked.

Me too, I hope it works out as well. I think many of us will be slightly doubtful after what has happend over the years, but knowing you're earning enough money to comfortably live on will hopefully eleviate any worries he might have working on it.

I haven't used Monkey in years but thanks to Mark and myself using Blitz over the years, it has allowed me to get where I am today so I don't mind throwing a bit of money at Mark every month just to help him along.
Who knows, if the 3D thing turns out to be coming along nicely I'll certainly up my pledge and give Monkey one more go.

If anyone else is interesting in support Mark, I recommend you go to his Patreon and do the same. Every little helps.


MadJack(Posted 2017) [#4]
So assuming the 3d module is completed, would it be a big adjustment to go to Monkey from BlitzMax?


coffeedotbean(Posted 2017) [#5]
Looks to me some one bunged him ~$500, last I checked a month or two back his pateon was around $500 with around the same number of contributors as it has now, just seems odd.


RustyKristi(Posted 2017) [#6]
So assuming the 3d module is completed, would it be a big adjustment to go to Monkey from BlitzMax?


This is also what I'm interested in. I don't care about that 3D anymore but as an overall project. MX2 syntax resembles almost C/C++ or java like, which seems to be the whole point, or not.

Why would anyone want to go from a basic like language to mainstream like language such as those I mentioned, might as well pull any other 3d engine that uses it and is far more established and industry ready.

It just does not make any sense.


Makis(Posted 2017) [#7]
Well said RustyKristi


Steve Elliott(Posted 2017) [#8]
+1 RustyKristi.


Bobysait(Posted 2017) [#9]
Blitzmax was supposed to have a native 3d engine that never came.
mark left the blitz ship for monkey. No problem with that, but as far as I'm concerned, I 'd feel a bit betrailed if he provides a 3d module for monkey.

Now, about Monkey, I just see it as a very small concurrent to Unity, with an OOP language and a more cross-platform oriented stuff than blitzmax had ("had", I'm waiting for Brucey to make a fantastic release of BlitzMax-NG), but ...
The language became at the same time : more OOP (in my opinion, blitzmax was smart enough, but whatever) and "user-unfriendly", and ... that was the blitz-spirit.
So, if I had to leave blitzmax for one of those solutions, it would only be because I've been asked for a serious project which requires a more cross-plaform support, and in this only case, I'd choose Unity without thinking a millisecond to monkey.

So, I might be wrong ( as Thom Yorke stated =) ) but I think blitzmax is still on the run and while it's a bit aged, it became at the same time a good challenger, while monkey's orientation makes it a very bad outsider, and ... I hope I'm wrong, but I really think it won't end well.


dynaman(Posted 2017) [#10]
I may take a look after it is released. I bought Max with the expectation that it would have a 3d module added and it never appeared.


EdzUp MkII(Posted 2017) [#11]
dynaman: me too, minib3d does a good job with Warner fixes.


skidracer(Posted 2017) [#12]
Removing the application class model from monkey could certainly make it a few new friends.


Why would anyone want to go from a basic like language to mainstream like language such as those I mentioned, might as well pull any other 3d engine that uses it and is far more established and industry ready.



It makes sense to me because I can build something in a weekend and publish to 4 different platforms with a managed environment.

C++ doesn't give me a managed environment and C# doesn't have anything remotely as good as mojo for traditional high blit rate arcade action.

I hope mojo3d provides people who want to code to finally distance themselves from the popular scene locked mouse driven generic pulp generators currently in vogue.


MadJack(Posted 2017) [#13]
What is 'mojo'?


gpete(Posted 2017) [#14]
hmmmm, good question
Some guy named Jim Lawless says he invented the Mojo Programming language.
Sample from his web page below:

Mojo is a simple, minimal, procedural programming language created by me ... Jim Lawless... ...

Mojo Grammar

program ::= imports | function-definitions
imports ::= 'import' str-lit eoln
function-definitions ::= 'fn' id [parm list] eoln statements 'endfn'
id ::= /[a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9_]*/
statements ::= stmt eoln statements
stmt ::= assignment | function-call | if | while | return | 'break' | 'continue'
function-call ::= function-id expr0..exprN
if ::= 'if' expr 'then'statements ['else' statements] 'endif'
while ::= 'while' expr 'do' statements 'wend'
label ::= /[:][a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9_]*/
return ::= 'return' optional-expr
expr ::= num-lit | str-lit | var-id | '(' function-call ')'
var-id ::= global-var | local-var
global-var ::= /[@][a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9_]/
local-var ::= /[$][a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9_]/
str-lit ::= /["][not "]["]/ | /['][not'][']/
num-lit ::= /[-]?[0-9]+/


skidracer(Posted 2017) [#15]
Mojo is direct descendent of Max2D (with port to BlitzMax by brucey) and I would say is heavily influenced most by XNA in it's design.

I would be more than happy if Mark dropped the monkey name and went with mojo for the whole stack.

Jim Lawless is also an excellent name.


RustyKristi(Posted 2017) [#16]
@gpete Interesting..


It makes sense to me because I can build something in a weekend and publish to 4 different platforms with a managed environment


Again, this is the problem with the product. It's only dealing with one person or a few, not going by statistics. It is always "me" while the other guys here disagree. This is also dodging and not answering the question, which is about the language and not the tools and reach it provides.

When dissatisfied, the end result is having another language spawned from another new product. What's wrong with Max? Seems like Brucey is having fun with it and taking it into new heights. I'm not here when this all got started, so did you guys imagine a 64bit, android and ios platform version of Max before?

Practical Real World Use Case/Comparison:

Monkey: I use it, build on different platforms. If BRL goes away (I hope not) or if I decided to not use the product anymore, I'm left with a frankenstein C++/Java like language that no one has heard of.. and I still need to learn C/C++ if I want to extend it or go advanced.

C++/C#: I use it, build on different platforms. If I decided to choose and go with a new engine, I still use the same industry standard language.

At least what's his face, I mean LW guy use C/C++ and Lua, not inventing a new language on every new product. I'm not a bias person so I'll give him props for that.


gpete(Posted 2017) [#17]
No guys I'm serious...there is a web page where some guy "Jim Lawless" says he invented the MOJO programming language. http://www.mailsend-online.com/mojo/

Now I just reread the Wikipedia entry for MonkeyX and its says Mark Sibley created MOJO as "Mojo is the official/commercial application framework for the Monkey X programming language"

Skidracer, what is going on? Are there 2 seperate Mojo's???


RustyKristi(Posted 2017) [#18]
@gpete

I think Mojo the language you are referring to there is different with the mojo, the rendering or framework module. The language of Monkey is I think Monkey.

There's Mojo2 on Max in case you did not know
https://github.com/bmx-ng/mky.mod


BlitzSupport(Posted 2017) [#19]

what is going on? Are there 2 seperate Mojo's???


Er, yes. Is that so difficult?!

Jim Lawless's project called Mojo: programming language
Mark Sibly's project called Mojo: 2D graphics framework


Brucey(Posted 2017) [#20]
Are there 2 seperate Mojo's???

One is a programming language.
The other is a graphics module for a programming language.


(tu) ENAY(Posted 2017) [#21]
Did someone really pay 500 dollars? My only worry though is that patreon is open to abuse. I use it myself and know there are problems with it. Like, you only get billed at the end of the month. In other words there have been trolls who put in a pledge and then reduce or remove it at the end of the month and put it back again at the beginning of the next month (or until the bill area has been processed)

Patreon is not a set amount, it goes up or down and there is no guarantee that amount is what you get until the end of the month. What if (for example) Mark gets 1000 dollars for 2 months and then it drops below 1000, or that person drops their 500, will he stop working on the 3D module, or abandon it if the total goes under 1000? Will he wait until it gets over 1000 again before resuming work on it? None of this is known yet, and since Mark has stayed away from 3D for almost a decade now, I just hope he is up to the job.

Also, I hope the amount goes even higher and not down, but 1000 dollars from 70 people, that's quite a lot of money from so few patreons. Time will tell anyway.

I hope Mark starts simple and works his way up, get simple 3D and loading in meshes in first, shaders, networking and some of the other stuff he mentions in his post, he should leave those out for now. Start simple and build stuff up. Don't do a Max3D if all I am hoping.

PS That 1000 dollars is before Patreon fees and taxes for your relevant country. It could be as much 100-200 dollars shaved off that total.


Zethrax(Posted 2017) [#22]
Mojo is direct descendent of Max2D (with port to BlitzMax by brucey) and I would say is heavily influenced most by XNA in it's design.

I would be more than happy if Mark dropped the monkey name and went with mojo for the whole stack.

Jim Lawless is also an excellent name.

If he want's to focus on making more money as he said then he shouldn't call it either of those things. Instead he should come up with a unique name that's easy to say and to remember and that has no competing results in a Google search.


Pakz(Posted 2017) [#23]
'MonkeyX' and 'Monkey2' and 'monkey x' and 'monkey 2' give direct results on google here. No problem there.

It will probably take a year or two for the 3d part to be finished. I hope the patreon amount does not dramatically drop before that.


degac(Posted 2017) [#24]
@Enay: this is my same conclusion... no guarantee on time of keeping the same amount (or around it).
Patreon is good only in theory...

I would still prefer Mar/BRL find another one (or more) money solutions to have 'stability'.

@Pakz: 2 years are too much... the interest in 3d+Monkey2+everything could drop in a few weeks if there's nothing to (at least) show (or to complain with! :P)


AdamStrange(Posted 2017) [#25]
Agreed 1 year is too long. I would have thought even initial tests should be shown and debugged and commented on within a few weeks.

2 years = very late and very dead


impixi(Posted 2017) [#26]
Call me crazy, but...

http://monkey2.monkey-x.com/forums/topic/patreon-1000-goal/#post-6614


skidracer(Posted 2017) [#27]
Complete crazy.


coffeedotbean(Posted 2017) [#28]
Very generous impixi, I think ill go up my contribution a little.


Richard Betson(Posted 2017) [#29]
Very generous impixi

Inspiring for sure. Monkey 2 is worth supporting. Just try it, you'll love it. :D


Steve Elliott(Posted 2017) [#30]
Very generous indeed, Mark is lucky to have such support.


Rick Nasher(Posted 2017) [#31]
Guess some people actually have money.


gpete(Posted 2017) [#32]
this is great!


BlitzMan(Posted 2017) [#33]
Never happen, heard it all before with BlitzMax.ZZZzzzzzzz


ImaginaryHuman(Posted 2017) [#34]
I think BRL should stop developing languages and start developing a higher-level tool - a visual editor, where you don't need to get into as much programming except where it's called for. There is SO much time that is utterly wasted having to do everything by manual programming, things which 'tools' succeed in making extremely easy. Plus then when you use a tool you can adjust things, tweak things, experiment, and iterate, and be inspired, far faster than having to go into code all over again to write yet another version of specifics. Really, times have moved WAY on past developing games and apps in 'a programming language'. That was like 10 years ago. BRL doesn't need a shinier happier programming language, or more platforms.

Monkey has been developed as a half-decent platform back-end to abstract away the hardware. It should be left as that. And then on top of it should sit a fully-featured WYSIWYG visual editing tool where you can actually build and edit and test the game close to realtime. Far more time can then be spend on artistic design endeavors and less time on "having to" program yet another huge piece of engine code, or trying to strap on someone's buggy 3D module, or writing another whole entire sybsystem by hand.

That's extremely old-school development by todays standards. Giving Monkey a 3D module should only be done as a way to have a 3D-supporting back-end to a visual editor, wherein you assemble the 3D game in the editor. You can really imagine ever making any kind of significant 3D game FROM CODE? Any kind of game? You've got to be kidding me. You want to spend a year writing your own 3D engine? Or 6 months trying to implement physics? Or.... like, how exactly are you going to design and implement all of the data that goes into an entire 3D game level of any sophistication?

You HAVE to have a visual editor. BRL needs to look at what actually is involved in developing a game now... and ... hint.... it's not about programming. Programming should be a last resort to do advanced stuff that you can't do visually and intuitively. Think of the huge amount of time that you'll save having an editor. And... yes. you can program your own editor... from scratch.... in very long extensive code.... over a very long period of time. Have fun with that.

The fact now is that most developers (using other systems etc) who want to make games have become used to a higher-level workflow, with easy-to-use game editors and user interfaces. This is normal now, for 2D and 3D systems. It is a huge oversight that Blitz doesn't have this. Development has far more parts to it than just writing programs and BRL has done next to nothing to make any of those other parts easier. Adding a 3D module... meh... okay so now I can 'program 3D'? .... really... write programs in order to get 3D stuff to happen on the screen? You know how much time that is going to take and the total lack of any kind of friendly tool that saves time and automates painful tasks, without having to write one yourself? That's where the competition is leaving BRL behind. It's not about languages.. it's about ease of development, and that has to mean an easier 'interface' to the computer, which means visual software editors, not having to write text programs to do everything.


Xaron(Posted 2017) [#35]
I totally disagree, ImaginaryHuman, my reasoning can be found here: http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/post.php?topic=107584&post=1333528


Kryzon(Posted 2017) [#36]
You posted this Xaron:

I can't count the hours I wasted with workarounds because of editor bugs, forgotten prefab links, sub particle systems that were suddenly gone and all that stuff.

To be fair you should also consider how many hours you've spent doing it the pure-code way you mentioned, just so that there's some ground for comparison.
Otherwise the point you're making is that "one way has these disadvantages, so the other way must be better", which is not necessarily true.

- - - - -
The Monkey2 \ Monkey3D discussion is spread on 3 different threads, this is tough.

- http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=107553
- http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=107584
- http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=107595


skidracer(Posted 2017) [#37]

The Monkey2 \ Monkey3D discussion is spread on 3 different threads, this is tough.



Agreed. And this one seems to be heading in the wrong direction.