I'm sorry. I have more crazy questions
Community Forums/General Help/I'm sorry. I have more crazy questions
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| Ok I’m sorry. I have more crazy questions. I was thinking of going towards a career in programming, but when I was in college, I majored in Education and in my degree program, it didn’t require many computer classes (other than one on how to email, surf the web, etc.) and my degree didn’t require much mathematics either. In fact, I only had to take a somewhat consumer mathematics class that went over how to balance a checkbook or add percentages, etc. (I just had to pass 2 teachers exam that encompassed basic high school math). But, I’ve been enjoying the things that I’ve been learning with programming. I’ve been as of lately learning how to build websites with HTML and JavaScript, I’m going to learn Java and I mostly enjoy making web applications and will even delve into C++ too. So thus, I was wondering if I wanted a job in programming or so, would they still find it ok if I just have a degree in Education with absolutely no math? My other question regards certificates in programming or so. Are certificates even necessary? If so, are there any short routes to certain certificates? Once again, I’m sorry for asking crazy questions. Thanks Last edited 2012 |
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| A degree helps but in reality is pretty much worthless. Years of programming experience is what people look for. And I mean experience in programming and not experience in a job (although that does help) Best to make stuff in your spare time, completed projects that you can show people. No matter where you work you will be constantly learning new stuff anyway so a fundamental basic of programming knowledge and the ability to learn is most important. |
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| Depends on where you live, in the UK, at least, you need a piece of paper to say you are qualified to fart, never mind get a job. I'm not into IT, construction is my game, and once over, up my way at least, if you needed a job, you would phone or someone would ask for you, they would go aye or nor, and if aye, the interview usually consisted of meeting the gaffer/manager in a pub for a bit of a chinwag, they would start you on a 13 week trial thingy, and if you were cack, they would just finish you. A few years ago I went for an interview at a company called Rok, was mortified that I had to do the formal interview thing (No beer, booo), so I went in, got the usual grilling, they went over my CV... Got the job, turned out the two managers that interviewed me were useless, well, one wasnt overly bad, but, the other just never had a clue and as such, sometimes, it would do my head in. See, this lad just walked out of uni with his bits of paper and literally walked into a project managers job, he had no site experience, which is very important, and trying to explain to him why some of his ideas were off the wall was hard, and he wouldnt budge up until shit it the fan, which usually consisted of him going "oh yeah"! Also, nowadays, they dish them NVQ's out like Werthers Originals at the local RAF club, I left school at 16, did NVQ Level 1, NVQ Level 2 (While on peanuts and in a placement for two years), then, NVQ Level 3 (The Golden Trowel, lol) and finally a National Certificate... Though, if you want an NVQ Level 2 nowadays (Which is minimum a company looks for as far as I can tell), all you have to do is throw a bit money down and rock along to a spunky 6 week course thing and bingo, your qualified! I say qualified, they get them bits of paper, but boy oh boy, the vast majority who go this route still cannot plaster, I've had to reskim tons in my time... Which ultimately means, the system, in the UK, is f***ed! Dabz |
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| Depends what you want to program for. "Programming" isn't really a job, so much as a support skill for another job. e.g. in a "generic corporate IT department" you might be doing database maintenance and a lot of interface coding. You need to know how databases work, but you can learn that stuff on the fly if your team and boss are tolerant. Such a place won't likely have any room for creativity though: the "job" here is to glue the company's dataflow together, not create cool things. On the other hand, if you were to work at a defence contractor, you might be writing embedded software controlling weapon systems; for this you'd definitely need formal qualifications on hardware design, and would have approximately zero chance of being allowed in without an engineering degree. The "programming" for this one is probably less demanding, however. So unless you want to get lumped with the monkey-work, you can't really rely on programming alone to create openings: your skills don't have to be in maths or engineering, but they should be in some field where you do have creative skills if you want to do creative work (e.g. 90% of web design is creating something that people won't click away from immediately: writing the code is a formality at most). "Programming" is just the way in which you go about being creative, and implement your designs. (Also, you should learn at least a bit of maths: you don't need to be an accountant to write financial software, but you do need to be able to formally prove that it won't drop zeros if someone leaves the wrong screensaver on.) Last edited 2012 |
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| (Also, you should learn at least a bit of maths: you don't need to be an accountant to write financial software, but you do need to be able to formally prove that it won't drop zeros if someone leaves the wrong screensaver on.) Ok I guess I won't say that I didn't learn absolutely no math. I should say in order to become a teacher, one has to pass 2 test that encompasses things like algebra, trigonometry, a bit of geometry but these are all basic high school leveled subjects. But that was all that was needed for me. I just never had to take any real math classes in college nor high school. |
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| Dabhand, you summed up my feelings exactly! :) Learning about Vectors, trigonometry, matrix math etc, cross vectors, dot protucts etc, basically 3D programming is practically an essential skill these days. If you don't know it you will be expected to learn, so in a way it is best to learn these things. |
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| Dabhand, you summed up my feelings exactly! :) Well, it gets my goat... 6 years I spent at college overall, 6 bloody long years, while on placement or working, and even when I did my BTEC National Certificate (Two years), I lost a days pay every week because the company wouldnt cover it, and I had a mortgage to boot... Yet, people can trot up with a crap bit of paper to say they can do something, expect to be on the same money as me or more, or even expect to land a better position and 9/10 they wouldnt get a job on the bins. It makes my teeth bleed it really does! ;) Dabz |
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| When I first started out 20+ years ago a degree was not required (I didn't have one...), today the degree is a requirement unless you KNOW someone already or have a proven track record (and even then it is iffy). So if you are just starting out you will need that degree. I have avoided certifications all my life and done well, but it certainly does not hurt to get them. |
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| Well, it gets my goat... 6 years I spent at college overall, 6 bloody long years, while on placement or working, and even when I did my BTEC National Certificate (Two years), I lost a days pay every week because the company wouldnt cover it, and I had a mortgage to boot... Dabz I'm sorry to hear that happened. |
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| Learning about Vectors, trigonometry, matrix math etc, cross vectors, dot protucts etc, basically 3D programming is practically an essential skill these days. If you don't know it you will be expected to learn, so in a way it is best to learn these things. It seems like the more I learn about game programming, it seems like some of those things are learned without me knowing that I'm learning them. |
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| I'm sorry to hear that happened. Hey, dont apologize, its not your fault! ;) As I said, I come from a different industry, so, never mind eh! :) it seems like some of those things are learned without me knowing that I'm learning them. Well that's the beauty and the horridness of it, especially as a one man band, you need to know how to use lots of things to make a game, from the sound and vision angle, hardware aspects, data storage and handling, maths, web based services right down to marketing, to finance... You name it, it's all part of the bundle! :D Dabz Last edited 2012 |
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| A degree helps but in reality is pretty much worthless. Years of programming experience is what people look for. I couldn't agree more. The degree gets them to look at you, the experience will get them to hire you. Also (a sad reality), sometimes its who you know or is associated with... I just never had to take any real math classes in college nor high school. I took a bit of math in college, but didn't make use of any of it in the real world. You would think that math is critical for a job in programming (for the most part is true), but if you're mainly doing javascript/html for websites/webapps type work...then you'd find out that math is not such a major part of it as you would expect it to be. |
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| There are what I would call programming only maths, stuff that you might gloss over in real maths. Often neglected but actually useful. Then then are hacked maths. Maths you can't really use in programming because it is too slow but are essential in programming. Even a degree in advanced maths won't help you there. Experience really. Also many things you might find yourself doing in many games, such as in most games now you have a radar, in your main game you just turn the camera but a map might be static or have rotational physics around a point. Now you could use vectors or Sin/Cos trig maths. Either way is ok but if you're not experienced, figuring out how to do that could cost you a days work, or 20 minutes if you have made it before or even a few seconds if you have ready made maths libraries to do things. So I will make a nice function where you chuck in parameters and out pops your answer, but in the end you will forget what the maths even does. But you can't learn that sort of stuff, just comes from experience, and even the best programmers look in google. Past COMPLETED projects are so essential, and over a span of years too. I myself would laugh at a CV of someone who did 4 years in a programming degree and then had NO EXPERIENCE just tinkering around at home. These people are no hopers and would crumble at real challenges because they would be only motivated by assignments and these people usually do the minimum that is required of an assignment. |
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| By the way, my first ever job interview was at a company called Rare. I was about 3 months away from graduating from a games programming degree. The interview was quite possibly the best kick up the back side I have ever had in my life as back then I was a bit of a moron, like any other person who just expected to roll into the games industry. The interview started off with probably the best question I think I have ever been given, I sometimes have dreams about it, nightmares maybe. I said hello, 3 guys opposite me, I sat down and after saying hello, straight away. The question popped. "So then Neil, what games have you been working on lately?" The rest of the interview was a bit of a blur, but suddenly I had this overwhelming realisation how severely under prepared I was. "games" with an "s" too. I had brought a few scraps of paper with me with some of my art (I wanted to be an artist back then) but Jesus, I was basically an idiot. I had nothing, no half projects half finished even, I had barely even started anything, let alone finished and the few pages I had in my portfolio summing up my degree and 10 years of messing around on my Commodore Amiga. The awkward questions thick and fast but in the end all I had to talk about was stuff I had worked on during my degree only. The interview felt like a life time. It was traumatic, they were pretty nice guys, but yet I was dying inside with shame. That was when I realised I needed to get out there and prove myself. But it was a big lesson for me and from then on I tried my best at everything and spent a lot of time tinkering with stuff. The following year Blitz came out and the rest is history. :) Oh, DO NOT EVER ask your mum for comments on your work. Mum's are BAD for your health. She will be proud of you no matter what, even for something simple just because you pressed alt+tab to change a window instead of moving the mouse and clicking the minimise button. She will believe you a are a talented genius hacker. Ask real people for criticism, LISTEN TO IT! In comparison now, I am the master of preparation. I have had 5 job interviews since then and in all of them I have been offered a position in the first interview. That doesn't mean I am better qualified than anyone else, it is just that I know my limits and prepare accordingly. Last edited 2012 |
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| By the way, my first ever job interview was at a company called Rare. You mean Rare as in the guys who did DK Country and Golden Eye 007? I still remember applying to Bethesda Software for a intern work, 2 years into college. Needless to say, i didn't get the interview :). |
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| A degree helps but in reality is pretty much worthless. Years of programming experience is what people look for. And I mean experience in programming and not experience in a job (although that does help) Unfortunately in the UK you have to have a degree before they will even consider you, I have over 32 years writing software (loads of finished stuff and some published titles) but still cant get a job in programming as the first thing the people at the other end ask 'do you have a degree' everytime :s. |
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| Hate to just put in a rant without really adding anything constructive, but everything I could say to help has been mentioned. I am posting to add my two new pennies of annoyance regarding the state of UK "qualifications" and job requirements. Jobs are so scarce nowadays, that yeah, you need a degree to put yourself above the crowd even if the job doesn't warrant it. Qualifications are speaking louder than knowledge and experience, so as Dabhand says, there are lots of people who can excel at a particular vocation that are left in the dole queues, whilst brats with a bit of paper that haave never actually dealt with any aspect of 'real life' or can approach a task from ifferent perspectives etc. walk into jobs they really aren't yet up to the challenge of. Despite those 80+ lot that refuse to retire who left school with a single O-level but have just grown roots in their job title :S The knock-on effect, then, is that turnover gets higher, making the 'statistical figuers' look like there are more vacancies, or a company is hiring a lot - although said company either needs to raise it's requirements thinking it will get better qualified (as in, with the correct qualities, not academic/vocational certificates etc) people for the position, and serves to exascerbate the issue. |
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| When I got a job at Gremlin Interactive back in 1998, my 'education' [or lack thereof] was what it was - worthless. Yet I got the job on the strength of the things I'd been doing writing public domain and licenceware stuff for Amigas. Fair enough it was only a job in QA, but sometimes the only way into big companies is through the basement. And from there, you can't go anywhere but up. I was put on PC QA having never even used a PC before, but within six months I was working in motion capture for double the salary I started on, and also working on audio stuff for things like Hogs of War etc. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't waste my time on getting degrees, not that I was clever enough for things like that. |
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| That is why the UK sucks, high turn over rate. High unemployment so people will work for less. Gone are the days when one man could earn a decent wage and a reliable job for life, supporting 2 kids and a wife. Now the wife has to work full time as well and still not earn as much as one man did 40 years ago. Now graduates are paid much less and probably have a shelf life of a few years. They are probably expected to job hop. Qualifications AND experience but you are easily shafted through no fault of your own. The following goes like this. - High Qualified graduate So then, you want to work with us. But since you have been studying and have no experience, start at the bottom of the ladder you go with minimum wage. - High experience non graduate So then, you want to work with us. You seem to have good experience but lacking qualifications. Unfortunately we cannot pay you a graduate wage since you don't have the paper to back up you skills. Start at the bottom of the ladder you go with minimum wage. Part (3) - High experience and qualifications So then, you want to work with us. You have the job. ( Unfortunately we can't pay you your big wage because we live in a recession and everyone is cutting back. You should be thankful we are employing you, basically we can dictate your wage or just employ someone who has just graduated since you are now getting a bit old for your profession, there are lots of people who applied for this job, you accepting this wage, you should be thankful) However for some unknown reason we have to start you at the bottom of the ladder with minimum wage. And it is can often be worse, contacting and the like. People are also being exploited by working nearly full time as you get but in reality heavily part time. They have no pension, very few working rights and can be sacked within weeks, even after many years of work. It is a sign of the times I am afraid. Happening everywhere, not just gaming. But when you look for jobs in the games industry, every single company is hiring. It makes it looks like there are hundreds of jobs you can do. In reality though graduates skills are not good enough and so having interviews all year round seems to be the norm. Especially when people get sacked / new people get recruited whenever a game is finished. Clear out the dead wood / overworked people. Bring in more people to abuse. Last edited 2012 |
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| That is why the UK sucks, high turn over rate. High unemployment so people will work for less. Gone are the days when one man could earn a decent wage and a reliable job for life, supporting 2 kids and a wife. Now the wife has to work full time as well and still not earn as much as one man did 40 years ago. Now graduates are paid much less and probably have a shelf life of a few years. They are probably expected to job hop. That's the way it is here in the United States too. It's even hard for a person to get a minimum wage job. And even if a person has a job, the jobs have cutbacks and makes it so that one person might end up doing 3 people's jobs. |
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| In the UK now we even have jobs with negative pay. Apprenticeships in even the crappiest companies where you might work for a year unpaid. That's right, you get to have the 'pleasure' of working, driving to work etc using your own money and not getting anything out of it, except for the 'experience' or chance of being upgraded to a paid position. Personally I think it is exploitation and once you start working for free how are you supposed to start on a good wage after that? |
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| Enay: there was a better one IIRC there was a course with a company that asked you to pay them so you could work for them, this was 'tuition' and you got the prestige of 'having your name in a game that was published' wooooo. So crap jobs and courses are everywhere it seems. |
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| Ironically that sort of job is probably better money spent than a worthless degree, especially since due to top up fees tuition can now be as much as 9500 pounds a year! :o I would really hate to be a 16 year old in the current world. What future do they have? But yeah, paying to work. Sounds about right. :( Last edited 2012 |
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| Personally I think it is exploitation and once you start working for free how are you supposed to start on a good wage after that? Agree 100%. If Cameron can magically find all these "work trial placements", why can't people be paid a proper wage for doing it? I'll tell you why, because slavery is alive and well in the UK.It's just like Thatcher's YTS schemes all over again. |
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| It is such a mess, it really is. What is the point in encouraging this sort of thing? We already have voluntary nurses and police, local patrol etc that is unpaid. Why would anyone want to work and get nothing or pay for the privilege. I would personally stay on the dole, like most chavs do. I mean at least in slave labour you get a pittance. The current generation are basically able to survive being helped by the bank of mum and dad. (That is the only way I got through, without support from parents with money, how are you supposed to get ahead in life?) Money doesn't just come out of thin air, so noone should ever be expected to work for free for 'job' experience. Last edited 2012 |
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| "why should we, the unemployed, work for no reward?" The working classes will tell you "no reward?! YOUR DOLE MONEY IS THE REWARD!". So for your £60 a week or whatever it is, the government expect you to do a fulltime job. Does this add up to the NMW? No it doesn't - it's not even close. I'd like to see Cameron and Mini-Me (Clegg) try to work and support themselves for £6.08 per hour. Even on their £150k salaries they still have to cream some off the taxpayer under the monicker of "expenses" so how in the hell do they think everybody else can survive on a fraction of that? Oh, and don't even get me started on "Pasty Tax". |
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| TBH what the UK needs is a complete change of government not change to one of the three useless bunches of idiots but to something completely new. Heck even get rid of democracy as it stands as all I can see it being used for is rich idiots getting richer at the expense of of everyone else. |
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| TBH what the UK needs is a complete change of government The problem is that all MPs (and not just in the UK) are pathological liars so no matter who you vote for you still have to "assume the position" and get shafted. |
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| We could always do a french revolution on em, then change from democracy to something else. |
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| Enay: there was a better one IIRC there was a course with a company that asked you to pay them so you could work for them hahaha I know businesses like that too. In those kinds of businesses it's usually fraud. haha Yes, it's usually those ad Marketing jobs were directors tell the people that they need to pay or buy certain equipment (from the director or their company) in order for the people to sell the equipment. They know that some people need jobs, so many people actually do sign up. And that's how the DIRECTOR makes their money. The director takes the people's money and tell the people that they have to do all the work themselves lol. It's a very slick way to make money. Heck, I even thought about starting me a business like that hahaha (I'm joking) Last edited 2012 |
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| I guess maybe in the end, I’ll probably just stay with education. I just to hear some ideas. I guess one problem with education that I was afraid of is when the government starts cutting back on their budgets, they usually cut back on the schools too and people get laid off and I guess I was just looking into some alternatives. There can be many perks in education too i.e. we get 3 months worth of summer off and every other holiday including Christmas, Spring Break and countless others and it's pretty flexible in education to where I can just switch fields at will. If I get tired of teaching one subject I could switch to another and I guess I can just do programming within education. Heck, I’m always seeing reasons why we need more education games and software. So, maybe I’ll just do it that way. Last edited 2012 |
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| Well, Politicans are professional liars, so you can hardly except ANY of them to be able to help you. They don't know what real people live like, all they are doing is fiddling the figures slowly but surely year on year to make everything seem like it is all ok. For example, reduce waiting list times, put fewer people on the list. Problem unsolved but figures looking nice. When I left the UK it was still under a pound a litre. Since then we have had an economic crisis. I don't know if I can ever come back to the UK. It scares me. |
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