Quest ion for Android Developers

Community Forums/General Help/Quest ion for Android Developers

Gabriel(Posted 2010) [#1]
So I like to think I keep an open mind, and despite hearing from a couple of developers that Android was more trouble than it's worth, I've been checking around for a decent device so that I can buy a Unity Android license and give it a go.

Or I was, until what I was reading left me cold. Hopefully, I've got this all wrong, and some Android experts can set me right, but if half of this is true, I'll forget about Android for another couple of years at least.

So I'm trying to find a phone that is actually usable for moderate games, and I'm being told that basically anything pre-ARMv7 is worthless. Many of them don't even have VFP, and wouldn't even run a game I could run on my 2nd gen iPod Touch. And apparently this isn't just the cheap Android phones and the new Chinese cheapy tablets, this is HTC, Samsung, Sony, etc phones costing £200+. Essentially, I'm told that HTC Desire, Samsung Galaxy S, Motorola Droid, Dell Streak, Samsung Tab, and a couple of names I couldn't even find are just about the only phones capable of iPhone-level gaming.

Ok, so I'd better find one of those. Well forget the Galaxy S because the 2.1 firmware is completely broken on that, Samsung futzed up the memory paging and it randomly crashes when you run an app. The 2.2 firmware is either out or coming soon, but you have to use Kies, Samsung's proprietary patcher, and that has a basically 50/50 chance of working on any given PC. Dell Streak comes with Android 1.5 (!) and although there is a 2.1 update, Dell didn't actually update their firmware to fully support 2.1, so installing it wipes your ROM, deletes all your apps, removes half of the functionality (including the store) and may actually brick it altogether. Samsung Tab is over £500, and from reviews is very poor and less responsive than the Galaxy S even. So I'm pretty much left with the Desire or nothing. Ok, I'll get that.

Hmm, the Desire has a very small Rom size, but you can add SD Cards, right? So that's no problem. Oh wait, on this page, it says you can't put apps on your SD cards on any Android phone unless you root it. I thought it was only megalopolies like Apple who told you what you could do with YOUR phone. Guess not. Oh well, it's not like I need a ton of apps. Still, if I make a 100MB app, how are people going to have room to install it if they can't use the SD card. And then I stumble across the worst news of all. My 100MB app won't be a problem for anyone, because I won't be able to build a 100MB app. There is a 25MB limit on the app size, to stop people filling up their phones with apps too quickly. And despite promising in May to fix it, Google haven't, because the only way they can fix it is to let me install apps on my SD Card and they can't do that because they haven't figured out how to stop me pirating all my apps if I can put it on my SD Card.

So would someone with experience please tell me I have this all wrong and that cheap £100 android phones can play iPhone level games, that I can have 100MB apps on the Android Store, and that all the myriad of manufacturers using Android aren't so disorganized that most of the powerful phones are completely crippled by broken or incompatible firmware. I'd kinda like to be wrong on this.


GW(Posted 2010) [#2]
I can say that I've had a Galaxy S (vibrant) since the day it came out and it's never crashed once. Gaming works fine for me.

Also, Im also interested in developing for android/Iphone, however Unity is out of the running imo.
The best option of all would the new Bmax2 language, but Mark is gonna keep us in the dark about its release until were forced to use another product. I have to make a decision very soon, so I think i'm going with Shiva. (win,mac,iphone,android,wii,ect)


Robert Cummings(Posted 2010) [#3]
Whats the cheapest 2.2 compliant android phone out there that I can use for development in the UK? I'm looking for iphone 3G performance.


Opcode(Posted 2010) [#4]
Hi Gabriel,

I can't answer all of those questions, I use Shiva for most of my phone game development now, and a HTC Desire device for testing. I've released about eight games ( 3D & 2D ) for Android & Palm this year without too many problems.

I know that gameloft have done a couple of larger games with shiva, not through the android market ( where the game downloads most of the data to the card afterwards ).

I've got another game for Android coming out in December which is about twice the size of my other games, but nothing that big-100mb.

But as said, Shiva/HTC Desire, has worked quite well so far.

Lee

Last edited 2010


EOF(Posted 2010) [#5]
Phones with Froyo 2.2 allow apps to be copied over to the SD card or back to the phones memory. Still, to me, 100MB seems extremely excessive for an app size, and I would not give it second look. The largest app I have is Raging Thunder 2 at 21MB

I have a Galaxy S and it does not randomly crash when I run apps. I can't remember the last time I saw a FC error for example
The only thing Samsung has screwed up on is using a slow file system but there are a few great lag fixes out there which sort that out
The phone is technically super-fast (once lag-fixed) with the best GFX chip in any smartphone at the moment (it can practically emulate a PS1 for example)

The HTC Desire is equally nice (and popular). HTC are very good with their Android updates too

As or cheap £100 phones, you get what you pay for, and I would not expect too much. Having said that, even the original G1 is still going strong thanks to a Froyo 2.2 update

Last edited 2010


Gabriel(Posted 2010) [#6]
Phones with Froyo 2.2 allow apps to be copied over to the SD card or back to the phones memory.

That's a very carefully worded answer. I didn't ask if they can be copied to the card. I asked if they can be *played* from the card. I'm guessing they can't?

Still, to me, 100MB seems extremely excessive for an app size, and I would not give it second look.

Yeah, answers like this just confirm my suspicions. When people start telling you what you're doing is wrong to distract attention from the problems with the phones/OS/firmware/etc, you know it's not a good bet.

Thanks for the other answers. I don't doubt it can be quite nice if you happen to get lucky, but I'm not going to invest £2,500 and a few months of my time in the hope of getting lucky. Unless someone can categorically deny the problems I'm reading about, I'll seriously consider it, but my Spideysense is telling me to run away fast for the time being.


degac(Posted 2010) [#7]
Hi
yesterday - finally - I've got my first Android device! LG Optimus One (P500) (Android 2.2 - 480x320pix - 600 Mhz - 170Mb free memory + 2GB (up tp 32) sd memory card - very happy!!!
After some experiments I found that *some* application (the newest one) can be 'moved' on the SD and run from it (I moved Googles from main memory to SD and it runs without problems).
I really dont' know if the OS copy from SD to central memory and then run it or run remotely.
I'm a 'nood' android (less than 12 hours testing, pinching, rotating this device... )
I played some demo games (2d and 3d) and they play very smooth and nice.
For example Racind Thunder (a 3d racing game) is less than 4 Mb...

Cheers


EOF(Posted 2010) [#8]
That's a very carefully worded answer. I didn't ask if they can be copied to the card. I asked if they can be *played* from the card. I'm guessing they can't?
To clarify, they can be played from the SD card. I watched a YouTube demo before showing Need For Speed Shift being played from the card

As for the file size restrictions, see:

http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Android+Market/thread?tid=5dcc15e4447fc01c&hl=en

BTW, if anyones interested I have a Motorola Droid here (no longer using it). Drop me an email for details

Last edited 2010


D4NM4N(Posted 2010) [#9]
HTCs are quite nice.


MikeHart(Posted 2010) [#10]
Gabriel,


Yeah, answers like this just confirm my suspicions. When people start telling you what you're doing is wrong to distract attention from the problems with the phones/OS/firmware/etc, you know it's not a good bet.



It is not distraction, it is just a fact that these mobile devices are limit in power and capabilities. You simply can't take your destop experience and your desktop games and shove them into a small device like an IPhone or an Android phone. 100 mb for a game on these devices is pretty much overkill. You have to learn to limit yourself. And performance wise you will be going back to the 80s. If you are after the most powerful platforms, then don't develop for mobile devices.


Yan(Posted 2010) [#11]
I'm positively charged about your impending development journey.

Good luck!


Gabriel(Posted 2010) [#12]
To clarify, they can be played from the SD card. I watched a YouTube demo before showing Need For Speed Shift being played from the card

Ok, that sounds very encouraging, but if this is now a built-in feature of Froyo, why hasn't the 25MB restriction been removed? Google already have mechanisms in place so that ArmV7 apps only show to ArmV7 phones. Why can't we hide apps over 25MB to people without Froyo?

yesterday - finally - I've got my first Android device! LG Optimus One (P500)

I was looking at that. Do you know if it's ArmV7? I can't seem to find any reference to the CPU beyond the clockspeed.

It is not distraction, it is just a fact that these mobile devices are limit in power and capabilities. You simply can't take your destop experience and your desktop games and shove them into a small device like an IPhone or an Android phone.

I already have two completed games on iOS and two more in testing. Shall we continue to pretend that I have no idea what I'm talking about to distract from the weaknesses of the Android platform or is it ok with you if we face up to reality now?

I'm positively charged about your impending development journey.Good luck!

Hah, thanks. I'm positively terrified about it at the moment, but hopefully all will become clear before too long.


degac(Posted 2010) [#13]
This is what I found about LG Optimus One (P500)

http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=2485&c=lg_p500_optimus_one


Gabriel(Posted 2010) [#14]
That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks!