Wings/Unwrap problem

Community Forums/Graphic Chat/Wings/Unwrap problem

Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#1]
Why is this happening?



I have created the model in Wings and triangulated it. Then I pull into Unwrap and crate a UV map and select color option color normal.

Look at the horrid jagged black lines and the badly mapped texturing. Any ideas?


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#2]
what is the size of your UV map big10...

(and what in hell is that supposed to be anyways :) )

also... open the 3D Shading Options and uncheck the TxWrFt button (select TexSm)... to get rid of those vertex lines...

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#3]
The UV map is 512*512.

Here's a screenie of the WIP app - yup another screen saver...




This screenie doesn't do it justice - looks loads better whe it's running...

Why doesn't the Unwrap generated UV map fit?


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#4]
no... that looks cool... i can see where you're heading with this...

i questioned the UV map size because of the giant jagged lines... but 512 x 512 should be good enough...
the larger the UV map, the finer the lines seem to be...

did you rescale everything into the space when you did the unwrapping...

also... it looks like you've got cylinders and spheres and triangular solids all mixed up in there... is one type of UV mapping gonna be best for all of em...

i'm fighting with skining the conning tower of this lil uboat i'm trying to finsih up, and i've found that i've separate some parts, and mix different uv mapping modes to the different parts according to the shape and best view angle...

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#5]
Red,

I've emailed you one of the problem models. If you get a mo to look at it I'd appreciate it...

I used the 2d tools/unfold model. Thats all.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#6]
will do... i've got the program UUW open on two machines now...

--Mike


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#7]
nothing in inbox yet...

i made a slot for you... resend and put Boiled Sweets in the subject box...



--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#8]
Sent. ta.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#9]
nothing yet BS... try this one mailto:// redocktober@...

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#10]
Sent.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#11]
something must be wrong BS... i'm getting nothing at both mailboxes...

see if you can send me just a plain message... and send one to yourself... i just tested mine and i'm receiving stuff...

it's always something...


--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#12]
Try here...

http://www.boiledsweets.com/tmp/starball.zip


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#13]
got it... all seems normal here...

i selected all... did a box unwrap... exported the uvmap black and white with the fill option... and colored in the triangles as usual...

here's what it looks like...




Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#14]
pic not working Red

When you say coloured them as normal you mean in PhotoShop? I was using the COLOR OPTIONS / FACE NORMAL to color it.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#15]
ahhhh i see what you're talking about... i had to scale it up a bit in UUW...



when i originally loaded it in UUW, it complained that the scale was less than 1... or something like that... but it let me load it anyways...

maybe scaling it up a bit in your modeller will help...

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#16]
When you say coloured them as normal you mean in PhotoShop? I was using the COLOR OPTIONS / FACE NORMAL to color it.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#17]
i put the colors onto the uvmap in PaintShop... but the problem still existed, even when i scaled the model up...

what i had to wind up doing to get rid of the jaggies, was after i finished filling in all the triangles in PaintShop, with whatever color i wanted, i proceeded to floodfill the background from black to white...

this is what i get now in UUW... no more jaggies...



**edit **

just thought of something... maybe just ghanging the background color of the uvmap to white and using your original technique will work... and save all that filling in in the paint program...

****


i don't think that you need up the scale upon seeing this...

hhhmmmmm... interesting, never seen this sorta thing pop up before...

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#18]
Nope still no go. This is using a background colour of white. Look at the seams - still screwy. Just how the hell does any one texture things correctly if the seams never work correctly. These are really basic models...






Whereas this one using the same technique is OK, even zoomed right up close. This is the look I'm after. So any thoughts...



I created the shapes in Wings3d and triangluated them before the export to 3ds. Weirdly even if I create a model in unwrap it does the same.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#19]
hey, your email finally arrived this morning :)

--Mike


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#20]
anyone?


stayne(Posted 2006) [#21]
why do you need the lines when you use the fill option??


stayne(Posted 2006) [#22]
i downloaded your model. even if your map is 1024x1024, you are still going to get bad results when your pieces are so small. This screenshot explains what I'm talking about...




Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#23]
markd,


why do you need the lines when you use the fill option??



Well I want the seams to have a black lines, weirdly if you texture map doesn't show them they appear anyway. Why is this?


i downloaded your model. even if your map is 1024x1024, you are still going to get bad results when your pieces are so small. This screenshot explains what I'm talking about...



Oh, is that why models are often MASSIVE and you have to scale down in Blitz?

Any thoughts on exactly how to solve this problem?


North(Posted 2006) [#24]
Also your unwraqpping algorythm is prone for such results - you just have too many seams at a too low uv-resolution.
Try to connect your uvs and build bigger uv areas, minimize the seams.

If your model does not look the same (uv-wise) in the final engine as in your editor you might have run into import/export problems (e.g. uvs do not fit perfectly as they did in the editor). Just as a reminder that problems can stem from importers ...

Oh and lastly - leave a 1-2px border for your uv-areas and extend your coloring to this border


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#25]
its not my unwrapping algorithm - it's Ultimate Unwraps!

1. How do I connect the UVs to make bigger areas? I'm making regular / symmentrical shapes. So want each 'part' to share the same colours. So in the picture below the selected bit is a part and I want all the other parts to be the same. So I should unwrap and pack/overlap the tris but the tris are being separated.

Basically I created these models in Wings, then exported them into unwrap and selected unwrap model. Then all the tris get separated.

2. So how do I go about reducing the number of seams?

3. Does anyone have a step by step guide?

4. Do I do something in Wings?

5. Or is there a step I missing in unwrap?

6. Should I select certain areas and assign them to groups? I have tried this but still the tris get separated.

7. How I I ensure that I don't end up with loads of separate triangles?

I don't use importers as such. Just save from unwrap then load with loadmesh in blitz.

8. Could someone download the model below and show me how?

9. So look picture below, how do I 'join' the tris so that when I unfold I end up with one joined uv map?



www.boiledsweets.com/tmp/blib.zip

Even if I assign them to a group and unwrap they are not all joined, see below...




Ross C(Posted 2006) [#26]
I would manually unwrap the model. You will probably have to overlap each side that is the same colour. This will allow you to have more texture space. The fact that it is just solid colours is better, because your unwrapping doesn't need to be true to the way the polys are built.

Email me the model and i'll try some manual unwrapping if you like.


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#27]
Ross,

I've sent an email to you. I am happy to overlap but I don't want solid colours I want the black outline. It's almost impossible to line up. But one of the biggest problems is unwrapping so the tris are joined.

It's starting to look almost impossible to have fairly complex shapes but have nice black outlined like this...



So how do create that type of texture mapping with this model. This is the one I have emailed.




stayne(Posted 2006) [#28]
detach each limb, UV them separately and parent them to the center mass.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#29]
i told you above how to do that... do a box unwrap and set the background color of the uvmap to white and fill it...

then in a paint proggy, tediously color fill in the triangles...

--Mike


stayne(Posted 2006) [#30]
or buy truespace 4.3 for 20 bucks (today's the last day) and paint on it.


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#31]
Do you really think I could draw all those black lines in the right place in a 3d modeller? Hmm. Methinks not.

I cannot believe that such a simple problem is so difficult to solve. How the hell do pros create really detailed models (with small 'bits') with only a tiny single UV map?

Anyhow gonna abandon the idea of black lines and just use lighting to create 3d effect :-(

I still am having real grief colouring these objects though. I have decided to group each part, pack/overlap the tris and do a block of colour.

Naff but at least it's doable....




North(Posted 2006) [#32]
do all the arms look the same? could they use the same uv-space?

I will try to look at your blip this evening.

besides i think it would be best to have a specialized shader that overlays the wireframe to achieve your goal - you want all polygon borders to be drawn black do you?

Question: What will be the maximum screensize of an object like your blip? Are you prepared to up the texture resolutions accordingly? (256^2 won't do you good regarding clean lines when you draw the object full-screen afterwards)


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#33]

do all the arms look the same? could they use the same uv-space?



Yes all the arms look the same. Yes they could occupy the same UV space. But one the real problems I'm having is if I take a single arm and unwrap it I end up with not just a single folded joined set of triangles. Also the unfolded shape isn't always the same so I cannot simply line them up over each other.


I will try to look at your blip this evening.



Great! Many thanks.

PLEASE TRY THIS ONE...

http://www.boiledsweets.com/tmp/star1.zip

besides i think it would be best to have a specialized shader that overlays the wireframe to achieve your goal - you want all polygon borders to be drawn black do you?



Well ideally but I'm thinking this is far too complicated to achieve :-(


Question: What will be the maximum screensize of an object like your blip? Are you prepared to up the texture resolutions accordingly? (256^2 won't do you good regarding clean lines when you draw the object full-screen afterwards)



Well the object could be say 25% of the screen so I'm happy for a 1024 * 1024 texture.

The real problem I'm having is taking something like this...



...and making it look 'good'.

The arms NEVER line up with each other or join correctly.

I have access to 3d Studio/Wings/Unwrap/Blender plus some others. What is the best one to use for this sort of thing? For this project the models will be big on the screen but I plan to use then for a space invadiers type thing. I have seen games that have small 3d models that look really good. I cannot ever imagine there SIMPLE models looking good when small. WHAT IS THE SECRET???


North(Posted 2006) [#34]
Hi again,

sorry i didnt get that reply before i started with the blib.

The file consisted of 2 models btw and i had several problems with the UVs after welding them:
for whatever reason my unwraps resulted in differently aligned uv areas for all the sides. Usually no problem if you spend the time to fix things but since the model was very easy to reproduce i opted for this way.

With the new model i optimised the UVs (no seams anymore) and tried various line-thicknesses aswell as texture filtering(MIP,SAT).
I observed that clean lines can only be achieved with an appropriate level of anti-aliasing. Nothing i tried gave good results but upping the AA settings.

So your problem no1 'how to UV' is pretty application specific but general methods can be applied throughout all of the applications.(e.g. correctly lining up polys to maximize texture usage, bordering UV-areas with 1-3px wide borders, etc.)
practice practice...

problem no2 'the engine output' can be solved by using higher AA-settings in your application. As each user has full control over his gfx card and aa-settings you can't count on this though.

A shader might still be the best approach.

I uploaded a file containing my samples for you to see through.

http://www.ninjinkai.de/bagofstuff/blib.zip

Sorry i can't help you any more.


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2006) [#35]
North,

ta.


So your problem no1 'how to UV' is pretty application specific but general methods can be applied throughout all of the applications.(e.g. correctly lining up polys to maximize texture usage, bordering UV-areas with 1-3px wide borders, etc.)



So you manually positioned all the tris to line up?


North(Posted 2006) [#36]
manually lining up polys is a valid option in many cases some form of snapping points on points comes in handy

some applications allow you to copy/paste uvs on other uvs, along with rotation, flipping etc.

i have no experience with the tools you are using so i cant give any more solid advice - check your tools thoroughly ;)


Ross C(Posted 2006) [#37]
For the time being, why not try and enable flat shading in blitz. My UU isn't letting me save. Must be a reg entry or summit...


jhocking(Posted 2006) [#38]
Oh, is that why models are often MASSIVE and you have to scale down in Blitz?

No, you misunderstand what he was saying. He wasn't talking about the size of the model, he was talking about the UV coordinates. The size of the UV coordinates has no relation to the size of the model. When the polygons are really small on the UV map, that means only a few pixels are being stretched over that polygon. Thus, obviously the lines will look ugly.

Meanwhile, in your other model where it looks good, there aren't as many polygons so each is larger in the UV map and gets more pixels on the texture.

The main issue is that you are wasting a lot of space (on the texture) by having each polygon mapped to it's own unique spot. This is the default for the mapping you are doing, but you should then adjust the coordinates so that polygons are overlapping. Specifically, if two polygons will have the exact same coloration, then you can overlap the UV coordinates and just paint it once. By overlapping polygons, you'll save space on the texture and can make things bigger.

Referring to your first screenshot, see how there are all those tiny polygons in UU? Well, you can overlap all the polygons that are the same color, making sure to tweak the UVs so that all the vertices line up, resulting in what looks like a single polygon but is in fact a whole bunch overlapping. Then you scale that up to give it more space on the texture (this is what 3D artists are referring to when they talk about "texture budget.")

As for these questions:
Just how the hell does any one texture things correctly if the seams never work correctly.

How the hell do pros create really detailed models (with small 'bits') with only a tiny single UV map?

well yes, UV mapping is pretty difficult. Whatever gave you the impression that it was easy?


skn3(Posted 2006) [#39]
Couldn't you render the lines on after (at runtime), in code ?


Ross C(Posted 2006) [#40]
I was thinking of the old, use the hardware wireframe mode, overlaid.