RTS RPG
Community Forums/Graphic Chat/RTS RPG
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some models im working no for an RTS style RPG.   |
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| Very nice - I'm guessing these are very low poly as they're for an RTS, right? |
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| Considering how low poly they are, I think you've done a pretty good job of skinning them :) |
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| yeah rts rpg. an online rpg actually. Just using the standard RTS camera view |
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OK a few horses done, and one unicorn  |
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| The flat shading is really unattractive.. I think they'd look nice if they were smooth shaded. |
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| blitz renders smooth.. so that wont be a problem. those shots are from anim8or |
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| I like the low-poly style of them. The horses have a real origami look to them. :) |
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| I think the chosen style is ... well very stylish and charming. I love it! It is how the game plays not the graphics which makes a game guys, as long as the game play is in there this will be nice. It has a sens of 'origami' to it in these shots, 'Paper RTS RPG' - I think you should keep them like these shots, it would be novel too!. IPete2. |
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a few spiders  |
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| Smoothing groups are your friends. Other than that, it looks good. |
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| im new to modelling .. at least a serious attempt at it. . The only tools at my disposal are Milkshape, Anim8or, and LithUnwrap. I think I know what smoothign groups is, and what it does, but cannot find the option in any of the tools I have . If you know different please let me know. |
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| I'll tell you: Read it all. It'll benefit you, I think. I have handled anim8or also (man what I have not handled, lol... ;) ) first...about animation, but u can't export animation other than isolated frames that u can convert later on as full piece keyframes into md2 or md3 (with npherno compiler and other tools...) , so u can load in blitz. oh, milkshape...no weights, that is only 100% or 0% weight...but extra bones can tweak it , doing accomodation, specially as this is low , low poly...and there u have b3dexport. Yep, I suppose that's what u do. anyway, anin 0.9 beta2 you have weights per vertex I think. (for the , for exaple, md2 route. Can't remeber now if importing simple 3ds files in quake modeller, and compiling to md2, and do the uv mapping and texturing in NTS mapper,would do the job...maybe yes.Seems, md2 is a way to go with rts games in blitz, anyway.) oops, smooth groups...forgetting.. well, u just double click in the object, and in properties that appear, u have "smooth angle" .Usually a value of 60, 75, 80 will do the deal. For sharpy objects, maybe 45. Anywaysm the smooth info is killed a bit once compiled the md2: that is...you need later on to plane VERY well the uv mapping...md2 and md3 CAN't deal a vertex with two UV coords, and that happens in every uv vertex in the contour of an uv mapping area (ie, the face) .So, what it does, is it break there the mesh, duplicating the vertices there. The result is like an unwanted smooth groups sharp edge. A cut in smoothing. Like if u had an edge in the middle of the face or something. Only deal for this, is hid well the uv borders.How you do this? In lithunwrap, or whatever you use (NTS mapper is quite good, too, just people don't know such an ancient tool) you make theuv island (chunk) so that the selection you make for , for example , the human face, have its limits in somewhere: -a) not seen. (like below the head, just in the union neck-head) -b ) coincident witha real border: ie, where the hair starts and joins the face ;) -c ) wehre due to nature of texture would be less noticed, like in back of head. or all together ;) Anyway, if u can rebuild normals inside of blitz, but FOR AN MD2, then, don't mess with it...only that Anim8or's normals will (smooth angle) will let you expect WAY better how it's gonna be seen once smooth.It's essential in games. U model an dedit depending totally on that. Anyway, for an md2, is yet important this what i tell you of hiding UV borders, as I expect any engine will output the problem, as is a format limit. md3 also. (anyway, for rts, md3 is surely much more slower.seems md2 is the perfect for your game) Also, *.3ds files DO have this problem too. So, if conversions are to be done in 3ds, take in consideration mor elikely the smoothing info will have anyway those cuts...That is, probably it will unweld already in export.U can fix for example in Milkshape with menu Vertex/"weld together". I suppose Milkshape has md2 export. If so, u could tweak it there, as though not having goood weights, u can bone animate, and probably tweak the vertices, and then export the animation: I think if I remeber well in a mod I was the guys used to tweak vertices once bone animated, as the UT format *.3d (yep, without the s) is vertes animation, like md2. Surely allows this, avoiding the non weights weirdiness of milkshape. Perhaps that one is ur easier (by far!) route. If possible what I am telling in milkshape. And if u prefer to model in anim8or, just export the model in whatever the format, (OBJ is WAY better, and the milkshape importer is very good) , uv map the obj in lithunwrap 1.3 (is quite better than Milkshape uv mapping) , export again as OBJ , import the obj into Milkshape. You can do there the vertex weld if see some cuts. I use to do even(in whatever the package) if I don't see them, for security.(milkshape does it only with coincident vertices, REALLY good feature...as then joins only the duplicated in 3ds or md2 export) You can add smooth groups in Milskhape. In Anim8or (haven't digged much the latest beta2 of 0.9, and downloading now -out of curiosity- the beta 3) the smooth angle is just autosmooth value: It just puts the hard edges for you there where an angle is more narrow than the value you did set: very angled faces will have the crease. So when u u want face smooth, don't make sharp angles. The other way gives much more control.In Wings3d is hard edges.But OBJ wings exporter seems not to export well those.But luckily you have some for of this in Milkshape. You make smooth groups: groups of faces that are continuous and smooth.It only puts a sharp edge in the contours of the selection you make :) Is now being discused to add this feature to Blender. So, your path Anim8or-lith-milkshape (I'm 99% sure it exports nice md2) should find not a single problem :) PS: models are very good fo rthat count :) |
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Bereth  Elf male  Elf male 1250 poly version  |
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| 1250? too much polys for that detail...are you subdividing? don't do that..trust better in smoothing normals (or smooth groups) ...(double click on the object, etc...) the bear rocks... |
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| Funnily enough I think the origami un-smoothed style is quite interesting to look at. In a world clamouring towards ultra-realistic normal mapping it makes a refreshing change. I think the Bereth model is particularly funky looking. |
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| yes the smoothed model is just smoothed for the sake of seeing the low poy smoothed. I am not using it for anything. Thanks for the positive feedback. im going to try to finish the female elf, and some elementals today. Im looking for a decent animator to animate these in milkshape for me.. I cannot pay alot, but i can pay. if anyone is interested. |
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| I think these models are brilliant. I love the style of them, and personally I'd keep the flat shading. My only consern would be how well they animate. With so few polys you're gonna get quite a bit of texture stretching. BTW. My favourites are the bears. They've got real character to them. |
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thanks. ive redone the dwarves. Animation should go ok so long as they arent made too realistic. |
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| Their hands seem a bit oversized. |
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| there dwarves. :) |
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female elf. wip the smoothing thing isnt an issue for blitz models.. here are some of the above models rendered in blitz without any modifications to them.  |
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| they would animate well...using a bit of accomodation techniques.... it's rather easier to animate low poly than hi poly...IMHO. I'd do it for you cheaply if I hadn't a load of other stuff in the spool to be done... PS: you don't need it to be in Milkshape, but any package exporting md2... (as if u say so you narrow a lot the possible artists to make it) (psst, did you find your way in double clicking the mesh inside anim8or and setting there a value of 70? seems you need to actually open in blith to se the smooth normals..) |
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| Bob3d, i havent done that yet no. I will investigate. and i dont want md2, rather .B3D animation format. |
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| RifRaf, Looking really nice dude! Yes I agree don't use MD2 especially if you want to produce a commercial product. IPete2. |
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| In OBJECT mode : -You have to set it in smoothed view (the top icon toolbar, has 3 tiny icons: a wireframe box, a solid box, and an sphere(previous to the materials 4-spheres icon) .Have that one of the sphere pressed.) -then, in arrow-object mode(the one bellow the eye icon), Select the object. Now double click on the object. (with arrow-select tool) -this will bring object properties window pop up. Down in the tiny pop-up, it says "smoothing angle". Set a high number, like 75.Try hit ok. See how it looks. Do so till you reach the smoothing normals value you prefer. -At last but really important, export as OBJ. 3ds tends to loose smoothing normals... -Import the OBJ in Milkshape. Md2 files are much ,much faster when they are many in the screen, they say. I haven't made tests my self, though.But too many people say so. Anyway, if u get a decent framerate with what you want to put in screen.. screenshot of workflow  |
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| thanks bob, I understood what you said the first 2 times though. Ill be using B3D for my project for what should be obvious reasons. I do appreciate your input. |
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| this is awesome. |
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| I'll add my name to the concensus, I like the flat shaded look too. I also like the bear best as well - it's funny how people like certain shapes! He reminds me of those overpriced dinky Schwartzkopf crystal ornaments you get in jewellery shops... |
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| Got to say i love the low poly count models. After playing EQ2 for a good 6 months now I can honestly say I prefer what I see here. It is different, imaginative and interesting. I want to try creating things myself, but just have no idea where to even start !!! (yes i have milkshake and other 3d proggys....) Bravo, welldone. |
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| Thanks. maps will look either like the shots in the banners in my first post or somthing like this shot, i cant decide.  |
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| The second shot looks better, imho. More interesting and detailed, although the map is smaller. I think a more cluttered battle ground with lot sof terrain features and trees will make your game more interesting whereas the first shot looks slightly sparse and may make battles boring. Either way they both look better than anything I could do =) |
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| With regards to MD2 format: Mr Sibly has - in times gone by - posted on the subject that there is very little difference in performance terms over all the model formats available to Blitz3D. So the choice is really yours... however there are licensing issues with commercial use of products containing the MD2 model format - as I remember it was this and BSP licensing that delayed the launch of Blitz3D in the first place. We were merely pointing out something which may not be known by some members of the community. IPete2. |
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| md2 and bsp formats are totally free. It's the Id tools to produce it which aren't. (nor gtkradiant, qradiant, and some others) But for that, there are plenty of free tools (quake modeller, nst, or any md2 export plugin (with the exception of Tempest for Gmax)) totally free to use. That what said Mark Sibly may be before releasing b3d weights. They aren't calculated by hardware 3d card. they are sure slower than a well done md2... Probably mark's problem would come for a delay in answer, or if he initially based on some of the Id's available routines...for license issues. I dunno. But the other mentioned are facts.... |
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| I do like the style of the models but am interested to find out how many of these models you will be having in-game at any one time. |
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| Wow, I love the look of the models. Very original. I do have a question though, one your screenshot above showing FLE, did you upgrade it? Because I really really love FLE, it has to be the best terrain program I've used.(no offense to anyone else) I seriously hope everything you work on turns out good, your one talented dude. |
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| md2's are soooo much faster (with regards to the framerate) than boned animations. So, try not to use too many bones per vertex. There realy are slow if you have alot going on. If you can get away with md2's and they look decent, use them :o) If not, try not to use too many bones. There slow :S |
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| Oh, really nice work there btw. Low poly stuff looking excellent! |
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| Chad, yes FLE has undergone some changes. Model placement, adjustable autotexturing options, via slope and height. Also auto mass model dropping via slope height, and density settings. AND it will save not only model X,Y,Z,ROTATION, scale..ect.. but in the model drop data file it also exports dropped model vertex colors so that lightmapping per object is not wasted. Oh, and the maps or landscapes can have any veretx resollution or scaling you like, its all adjustable. Im using b3d because i do need the bones to attach other objects to, I also want the format to be able to include any vertex alpha, or entity fx, and blends i want in them at load. |
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| "Im using b3d because i do need the bones to attach other objects to, I also want the format to be able to include any vertex alpha, or entity fx, and blends i want in them at load." What ross said is..if u do so, try to set as much every vertex influenced for the minimal bone number. IE one allways that is possible, and two when no other thing can be done. There will be moments u'll need 3, though. BTW, there's a trick to attach weapons with md2. Old trick...You make to objects, weapon and character...in your milkshape or Max, or cfx, or blender, whatever, you link the weapon as normally, to hand. Also apply a diferent texture per each object (one for character, one for weapon) . When you're ready to export the whole set of animations (usually one anim with walk, iddle, attack, etc, in a whole single sequence (writting down the frames number wher each action starts/ends)) you export them separatedly: you keep the "master" max, blender of ms3d, etc, file intact, while work on a copy (an advice). You load this file, and...delete the weapon. then export the whole animation but so, withouth the weapon. Calling it for example, buddy.md2 (in quake2 they allways called it "tris.md2", hehe) .Now, load again the master file (or a copy of it) , and delete the character leaving only the weapon animation (beware: some packages will change weapon loaction if it were child of character...In CFX u can delete the object safely, as skeleton remains, and so, positions do not changes, and skeleton gets not exported in md2, only vertices.) , and export it as md2, calling it, for example weapon.md2. At loading time in your code, you load both animations in place...if u leave intact the global coords of it, or change same in both, the weapon will keep allways relative to character, just as u designed and animated it.As u saw in your package. "vertex alpha, or entity fx, and blends" No, can't do in an md2, though you can fake things, and I wouldn't loose the advantages of it in an rts or many-characters in screen rol game, just for some effects...Good modelling and good texture imho, is all you really need...The models are quite good for the count; maybe the textures need more work and a bit more contrast or definition, ...and detail...dunno... feel free to not use too small textures...256x256 would be great, probably.Depends on how may characters, also... |
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| the weapon trick was made for two reason(two that I know)...one for "faking" the attachment..it's actually baked from the 3d package software, as vertex animation. Two, as md2 can't have more than one skin (skin is texture in this case, there's confussion if refering to the weights info) , so, u were forced to do all in a single mesh, welded, and also save texture space in the already -usually- tiny md2 texture of 256x256... As u'r actually outputing (doing as I mentioned in previous post) one md2 for weapon, and amnother md2 file for character, each has its own texture. I made in a kind of joke an md2 dwarf. The character texture was 256x256, while weapong didn't worth to use a texture of more than 64x64, as was very simple/small(size of weapon model will make it be less/more seen) weapon. Character Fx is quite a good tool for this: better than Milkshape, as Milkshape don't have weights. With weightsin ur package u actually bake that anim smoothness in joints. You wont be able to do that in ms3d even if use b3d format. You'd be able to do so if export as b3d or md2 in Cfx. But as mentioned, md2 will be much better for performance for your type of game. Blender rocks for md2 too, but u really need to know it quite deeply. md2 only pair of things to be really aware of are...that it looks ok for a warcraft3 or whatever "from a distance view", but you see some vertex trembling if aproach the camera for a very near shot...(not in these games(NWN style, etc)) Second, and probably more important, is that like md3, it can't have duplicated Uvs per vertex. It actually then breaks smoothing there(as breaks mesh duplicating vertices and leaving em unwelded), generating an unwanted seem in an smooth surface (worst case: in the middle of the face) .Only workaround for this that I know is...hide the seams while uv mapping. Make ur uv islands so that the uvs get put in places like bellow the chin, in the interior side of arms, in interior of legs...not that bad when u plan it when start uv mapping. this issue does not happens with x or b3d format, but yes with md3, md2, 3ds. There's a third advantage for doing my mentioned weapon trick...u can load animations without the weapon, like walk, etc. Anyway, you'll use with all sure b3d, reading your last posts. But thought I'd give u more info. |
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| Hmmm, that's quite a good thing to know Bob :o) Thanks! |
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| allways glad to help :) |
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| Bob, the trick is to me, crude. Not very effective especially if there are hundreds of weapons and armour possibilities. It just seems like a cludge to do it teh way you described, since you may have several characters that are animated differntly, and if you have 100 items. then you must animate each item for every character.. so if you have 20 characters thats 2000 animations for the items. when using B3D boned format, you can just attach the item and it move with the animation automatically so its also much less work in setting it up. |
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| No doubt on bone style is better and more advanced than vertex animation..but hundred weapons, items, 20 types of characters....that all is meaning...a type of game in which you are putting (or can't be avoided it happens) a load of characters in screen... With Blitz3d, which does not allow card/hardware calculation of weights.... Good luck loading on an average machine ;) I have seen probs even with a single character...(but yep, I'm no coder) Well, I guess you made your tests and you'r so sure as you already saw it can be handled by old machines...if you pretend to sell in in shareware, or low cost market (not AAA game) you should really care about those machines. The hack is not mine. It was used by quake 2 comunity long years ago. |
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| wait...I'm dumb...the thread title says rts/rpg. heh..yep...sure the genre at least will demand you a lot of characters. It will be actually really slower. |
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| Bob, ive got it under control but thanks. |
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| Hey RifRaf, looking very good, have you played Spellforce by any chance.... looks very similar in concept... good luck with this, it's something I've always thought about doing but just never had time to look at.... soooo many ideas not enough time to do it all :D |
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| Bob3d, Ok - I bow to your superior knowledge! :) I don't have the kinda depth of knowledge you seem to have, but I have been around a long time, and I clearly remember the things I have pointed out are long time issues. The reason for the Blitz3D delay was definately a use of format/copyright issue with BSP and MD2 - in fact Mark was going to take BSP out of Blitz3D, but he decided not too. There were quotes from the relevant copyright holding companies posted for us all to see at the time, exactly what was going on, although it was a long time ago for me to remember the exact details. The b3D/3ds/MD2 'speed' issue WAS before weights, you are right - Mark said at that time there was no speeed difference. But I have missed a trick here, I have always thought of MD2's as 'no go' areas, for commercial licensing reasons, now I know different it will open that format up to me. So thanks for that, although I really would like some kind of official 'proof' regarding the bsp and MD2 format being free to use in commercial products - I have had a quick look around the net and cannot find anything either way. If anyone can show me where this information is officially available, then I will be happy! Thanks, IPete2. |
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| Ok, I have read too many times in too many places, that you can use comercially Gmax tool, md2, md3, bsp. You can't use Id tools for comercial projects. The formats are free. I can go to carmack's home and ask, too ;) No, seriously, way lots of threads of people wo report contacting id, and were replied they could use the formats alone. Could this be a lie? then why they never jump into these guys necks? Why *many* game making software output natively md2 format (ie, 3d canvas, character fx, etc,etc) and many engines support it, have loaders for it, etc...You should be QUITE non worried about that, anyway, I'm collecting bellow some found info : http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcmsg.cgi?thread_show=5674&msg=35940 Here is the actual quote from John Carmack (from Max's Q2 BSP article). "We do not legally protect the file formats, but you can't use any of the released tools, or tools derived from them (except the GPL'd Quake 1 tools) to generate content for a commercial venture. If you are writing everything yourself, no problem." So again .. if you write your own tools you have no problems using any of id's file formats. Then...that leaves you the open field of using any tool not based in it: nPherno md2 tool, md2 max plugin exporters, cfx, quake modeller, etc. one more.... http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=84735 IT's not possible to 'own' a file format without a patent, which ID does not have. Various people from ID software have addressed this several times. They don't mind if you use their formats, so long as you don't use their (non-GPL'ed) tools to generate the files. So, you can use MD2, MD3, Quake3 BSP, etc. But you _cannot_ use the Q3 BSP compiler to compile BSPs for your game. More. http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=94852 quote:John Carmack "We do not legally protect the file formats, but you can't use any of the released tools, or tools derived from them (except the GPL'd Quake 1 tools) to generate content for a commercial venture. If you are writing everything yourself, no problem." That's what they claim to have heard from him at flipcode q2 bsp tutorial http://www.flipcode.com/tutorials/tut_q2levels.shtml Something I consider it should be more proof than a simple thread...as is on a tutorial on a site, since a while...I though they'd have had serious issues, if not... : http://www.flipcode.com/articles/article_q2bsp.shtml Legality Using id Software file formats in a publicly distributed application always seemed a little questionable to me in terms of legality. In preparation of this document I contacted id Software to resolve the issue; John Carmack was kind enough to send along this response: "We do not legally protect the file formats, but you can't use any of the released tools, or tools derived from them (except the GPL'd Quake 1 tools) to generate content for a commercial venture. If you are writing everything yourself, no problem." DB pro, Gamestudio, the old Genesis3d, (Blitzbasic3d) , and a zillion of engines and game environments have it included. Plus some comercial packages, that i'd expect they rarely have paid a 250,000 $ to id for their technology: formats must be free. I say must as in case you yet don't trust it. 3d canvas is run as an smal business, kind of personal one, like Milkshape (was initially) I doubt they had to pay that quantity. I think the above posted should make you safe enough... And btw, in the really weird case the worry to try and claim for the format, hey, that'd make you famous after all...a chance to be known, after all ;) ;) No, really I doubt there's an issue. (even more for just an indy...lol...:) :) ) Still, you can mail him directly. I really doubt he'll get the chance of reading it. He must have a full blown inbox with the upcoming gpl of the q3 source, doom3 mails, who knows if also about is rockets company, quake4, and yellow elephants... ;) you email would be probably an spot lost in a universe... :) For some reason I am in the mood of writting bad jokes, today. |
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| Bob3d, Many thanks for clearing that up! IPete2. |
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| Also, low-poly models won't look that low poly from an RTS view. |
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