Blender thoughts required

Community Forums/Developer Stations/Blender thoughts required

ardee(Posted 2007) [#1]
You may or may not know about Blender's open source movie project, Peach, and associated game project, Apricot but now is the time, if you're a user or potential user of Blender, to get involved.

Basically the Blender Foundation is funding another film project to drive development of Blender and this time there's also a follow on game project using the assets from the film.

Read about the Peach Project film here:

http://peach.blender.org/

and the Apricot Project game here:

http://apricot.blender.org/

The main purpose of the Apricot Project is to drive the development of Blender as a tool to be used in the pipeline of "professional" game developers. The call for discussion about what is required has now gone out on the Apricot blog. Have a look at the mini site for the background information and maybe join in the discussion.

Blender now has a rock solid .b3d exporter (thanks to Diego aka GaNDaLF) and in my opinion is the perfect partner with blitz for media generation.

Don't know what Blender is capable of? Take a look at the newly posted fur tests on the Peach blog.... nice. You're not going to see that in a game but hell that's impressive.

New developments already in svn branches of Blender include automatic armature creation and skinning using heat bone techniques which automatically rig and weight a mesh to an armature and in my tests produce fantastic results for models imported into blitz.

So, get involved, forget about pirate copies of 3D Studio Max, and maybe even support the Blender Foundation by pre-purchasing a DVD of the film or game.


D4NM4N(Posted 2007) [#2]
Blender now has a rock solid .b3d exporter (thanks to Diego aka GaNDaLF) and in my opinion is the perfect partner with blitz for media generation. New developments already in svn branches of Blender include automatic armature creation and skinning using heat bone techniques which automatically rig and weight a mesh to an armature and in my tests produce fantastic results for models imported into blitz.

I'd second that. Animation in blender is a snap compared to other animators.

So, get involved, forget about pirate copies of 3D Studio Max, and maybe even support the Blender Foundation by pre-purchasing a DVD of the film or game.
Bought the manual (its worth it), does that count :P


JustLuke(Posted 2007) [#3]
Does it still have the same sucky interface?


Dicon(Posted 2008) [#4]
Unfortunately, yes, though it does do very good "Bake textures".I am still trying to get to grips with it, I used to have Quill 3D, but it doesn't work in MX.
Dicon


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#5]
Well, in that case, I'll take another look at it when they replace the GUI.


Loginname(Posted 2008) [#6]
Yeah, the GUI is really something that needs an alternative at least! Look at SILO, that's a real USER INTERFACE :D


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#7]
Agreed. SILO has a lovely user interface.


D4NM4N(Posted 2008) [#8]
Believe it or not, I love blenders interface, needs more than a few hours un-guided fiddling and a decision of "it sucks" though.

I hated it too at first, as its very different from the standard expectations, but once i had watched the training videos I realised its actually MUCH better and efficient than anything id used before, including max, truespace, ac3d etc. so i changed my mind.


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#9]
"it sucks" is an informed opinion, made after watching the training videos and learning to use the application. The GUI sucks and it is extremely ugly.

I found the following quote that pretty much sums up my thoughts on Blender (and why it will never achieve its potential):

Blender is an open-source, free, 3D modeling/animation/rendering package available for download from http://www.blender.org/. The good news is that it works very well, even on less-powerful machines. The bad news is that if you've ever done a project in some commercial environment like Maya or 3Ds Max®, the GUI is going to be utterly alien to you. It's not that there's anything wrong with Blender's interface, it's just that it's...different. Different from just about everything else. Way different.

In fact, many people now using Maya who would like to migrate to Blender are deterred from doing so (I heard their complaints myself, at SIGGRAPH) by the necessity of learning a software interface that's so utterly unlike everything they've trained themselves for years to handle. My own feeling is that this "do your own thing" approach is hurting widespread acceptance of Blender in the worldwide animation and modeling community.

And certainly, the GUI has been improved to the extent of providing click-buttons for many functions that once required a fistful of keystroke combinations. And the coming release of Blender V2.5 is said to have a much more user-configurable GUI, one that users will be able to reassemble into something more comfortable to them. But persuading the Blender programmers to make even these concessions hasn't been easy. In the frosty words of Ton Roosendaal, the lead developer of Blender, "Blender isn't for Maya users — Blender is for Blender users." So much for reaching out to the masses.

Taken from: http://css.its.psu.edu/news/tollfree.html


ardee(Posted 2008) [#10]
@JustLuke

Interesting read. Interesting that Maya users (Maya costs 1800 UK Pounds upwards) would want to move to Blender. *Rhetorical question* Why would they even consider it? Because of it's immense power, that's why. No one piece of commercial software can match Blender feature for feature.

@Everyone

Blender's aim (with respect to professional users) is not to supplant all the commercial software used in commercial studios but to slot in alongside as part of a professionals pipeline. The user event system is currently being recoded from scratch which, when complete, will allow for user customisation to the n'th degree.


As for Ton's (Blender lead developer) "frosty words" (a more approachable chap you'd be hard pressed to find) I can only agree. Why mess about with an application to suit a small minority? Blender downloads last year circa 1.8 million. Blender in a non-commercial environment is, for me, a no brainer. Time will tell on it's continued adoption within the industry.

That such a powerful program is available to anyone for free is a matter for great celebration. If there's something you don't like about it then you're free to change the code as you like. If you haven't got coding skills join the community and put forward suggestions for it's improvement.


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#11]
Interesting that Maya users (Maya costs 1800 UK Pounds upwards) would want to move to Blender. *Rhetorical question* Why would they even consider it? Because of it's immense power, that's why.

Well, that's one possible conclusion. I reckon that the "Maya costs upwards of £1800" bit has more to do with the desire to switch than you might think.

Blender downloads last year circa 1.8 million.

Yeah, it's easy to download free stuff. I just downloaded it again myself (I've already installed it, seen that nothing important has changed, and uninstalled it). I wonder what percentage of those 1.8 million downloaders actually use Blender as opposed to taking one look at it and uninstalling the application?

Why mess about with an application to suit a small minority?

And why limit the potential and appeal of an application to suit a small minority? Blender's current takeup is a drop in the ocean compared with what it could be. This is a problem with open-source software in general, though. Geeky developers want to devote their time to working on obscure features. They consider these things to be technically interesting and/or challenging, and so they ignore the needs of non-hardcore/fanboy users. This is because they don't have any commercial incentives to do appeal to increase their marketshare by working to improve aspects of their software that people really care about.

Or, as I like to call it:

"I don't have a problem with hundreds of undocumented keyboard shortcuts, and neither do any of my co-developers, or the regulars on our official forums. Anyway, who cares about any of that when we've implemented the latest bleeding edge features" syndrome.

Sorry, I'm not very good at inventing snappy, concise definitions...

If there's something you don't like about it then you're free to change the code as you like. If you haven't got coding skills join the community and put forward suggestions for it's improvement.

We both know what happens when people suggest replacing the GUI. The fanboys and developers close ranks, adopting a bizarrely aggressive siege menntality. Criticising the GUI is akin to blasphemy, and the only opportunity that the blender community provides is the chance to voice a suggestion that will ultimately be ignored if it is incompatible with the blinkered interests of the hardcore.

Believe it or not, most people don't care enough to contribute to the project or argue their case to the point of exhaustion. If they find Blender to be user-unfriendly and ugly, they simply won't use it.


ardee(Posted 2008) [#12]
Well, that's one possible conclusion. I reckon that the "Maya costs upwards of £1800" bit has more to do with the desire to switch than you might think.

Surely by definition they've already paid the 1800 quid, maintenance withstanding.

Sorry, I'm not very good at inventing snappy, concise definitions...

Agreed, you're not.

We both know what happens when people suggest replacing the GUI. The fanboys and developers close ranks, adopting a bizarrely aggressive siege menntality. Criticising the GUI is akin to blasphemy, and the only opportunity that the blender community provides is the chance to voice a suggestion that will ultimately be ignored if it is incompatible with the blinkered interests of the hardcore.

This is simply not true. Certainly if you say to a Blender developer "Does it still have the same sucky interface?"
you'll get ignored (what would you honestly expect?). But if you were to say "I don't like the interface, here's a few complaints and here's a few suggestions to consider" you probably would get heard (as long as it's not make it look exactly like *insert any other piece of software*).

If they find Blender to be user-unfriendly and ugly, they simply won't use it.


And some put off potential users from even trying it by complaining about the interface, leaving them to either steal software or spend, probably unneccesary, amounts of cash.

Unfortunately a lot of people actually believe half the stuff they read in forums ;-)


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#13]
I would be more tactful if I posted a complaint about the GUI on the Blender forums. Fat lot of good it'd do me, because I'd propose putting Blender in "feature freeze", stripping out the existing GUI, and replacing it with a freshly designed, rethought, more standardised one. I suspect that this wouldn't go down well.

Sadly I'm not sure that the developers have either the courage or the flexibility of vision to do what needs to be done. This is understandable. Fixing Blender's fundamental design flaws must be a very daunting prospect.


ardee(Posted 2008) [#14]
Good news then. The mythical event refactor is going to allow far reaching and fundamental changes to the UI. Blender is being rewritten (version 2.5) from scratch, as we "speak" to allow such changes to take place. The present code base, by Ton's own admission, was a mess of hacks. This refactor will allow new developers to get up to speed much quicker with the code and allow it's development to continue at pace.

Give it time, but to a new user, looking for a no cost, all in one modeling, animation, particles, physics, fluids, GI etc editor then Blender is the one and only.


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#15]
Neat. I hope that the changes that you mentioned result in some tangible improvements.


MrCredo(Posted 2008) [#16]
i use blender sometimes... this a powerful software... i like it - and each update here come so many new functions - this is fantastic...

GUI is not so perfect - text editor and file-dialog is a nightmare! but this window system is very nice - you can reconfigure the screen - and with v2.5 you can define hotkeys and i think you can redesign interface... here are plans to make blender interface a but more user friendly - and a new fresh style come also i think (hope)...

the problem is that this software is very powerful and HARD to learn. my language is german - here exist a blender documentation - but it have half size of original docs :/


Naughty Alien(Posted 2008) [#17]
@ardee
>>No one piece of commercial software can match Blender feature for feature.<<

are you really sure about this statement, or its just your excitement talking trough ya??


ardee(Posted 2008) [#18]
@Naughty Alien

Yeah, I'm sure. Vanilla 3DStudio Max is probably the most feature rich commercial application but it still needs many additional (purchased) plugins for things that Blender has natively.


Yan(Posted 2008) [#19]
are you really sure about this statement, or its just your excitement talking trough ya??
Decide for yourself...

http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/features/
http://www.blender.org/development/current-projects/changes-since-244/


Naughty Alien(Posted 2008) [#20]
..so far I cant see a single thing Im unable to do with 3DSMAX here(except game creation toolset), and at same time, I can do Mocap with max what I cant see Blender can do..modeling capabilities of Max I have no reason to compare at all, and for lighting you may take a look some Mentalray or Vray rendered shots..having in mind huge userbase, I cant see how Blender can be better than MAX..having in mind additional compositing extension where is possible to nicely blend Aftereffects with max at same time or Combustion, I cant see how you can beat that stuff with Blender...but maybe real actions talking more than words, so it will be nice to open some thread for competition...I'll be happy to give a shot with Max on my side..

>>Yeah, I'm sure. Vanilla 3DStudio Max is probably the most feature rich commercial application but it still needs many additional (purchased) plugins for things that Blender has natively.<<

Keep in mind you compare Blender with COMMERCIAL stuff..what means you have to pay for it anyway, no matter is it main proggy, or add on, so dont complain about it..be free and add on to Blender free stuff..its open source, right?...Blender is fine..but I still do belive you folks underestimating such products like Maya, max, Houdini, Softimage...and I do understand excitement with free, open source thingy and yet powerful..but it all has its price..


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#21]
It seems like blender's upcoming UI improvements will fail to address the application's real problems. According to a post on CGTalk, this is what we should expect from the upcoming UI update:

So, what you can visually expect from the new UI (as everyone likes to call it) is:
- Reworked buttons window and buttons naming
- Shortcut keys remapping (so you can change the shortcut to something like Max or Maya)
- Even more flexible Window system (headers available also on the sides and not just top and bottom, and more)
- Drag and Drop support
- Support for more devices (possibly dual mouse setups and the likes)
- Faster UI

What you can expect in terms of development:
- Better code
- No more duplicate code
- Better Python Integration
- Visual code separated from the functional code
- Easier way to write more ui goodies

What you will not get with the new UI:
- Interface like any other 3D application
- Way of work like any other 3D application

Everyone should understand that Blender has its own workflow and the User Interface reflects that. And this workflow won't change anytime soon, since it is one of the best things Blender has, one that makes you really fast when you know the tool.

So, if you want to learn Blender, start now, cause it won't have any dramatic user interface changes in the near future.

source: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=91&t=494429&page=3&pp=15

and earlier in the same thread:

Though blender's ui makes more sense to me than say lightwave, I find the charges of lazyness leveled against people who want to use a different ui unproductive.

If any one of you have ever wondered why people think Blender users are arrogant and elitist, there's one of the reasons right there.

Along with the awful UI that flies in the face of conventional GUI standards, this is the other reason why people are turned off by Blender.


ardee(Posted 2008) [#22]
@Naughty Alien

This thread has now strayed wildly off topic (originally a request for game developers to join a discussuion about what tools game asset makers required and how they might be incorporated within Blender)

Your last post confuses me. You talk about Vray, Aftereffects, Combustiuon etc as if they part and parcel of Max. Reread my quote, it has the word "vanilla" in it. Vanilla Max doesn't have sculpt tools, fluid simulation, non-linear animation, video sequence editor or a physics engine.

This is not about willy waving about who's software is best, it's about giving users the choice and not queering the pitch with throwaway statements as made by JustLuke. If I'd spent thousands of pounds on software I'd probably want to enter a competition too to prove it was the best, but I haven't so I wont.


ardee(Posted 2008) [#23]
@JustLuke

You posted while I was writing my last post. Nice thread, I particularly like the life long 3DS Max user who after 15 minutes realised the power of Blender and it's UI.

Let's just see what the refactored 2.5 version will bring.


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#24]
I think that you're a little blinkered, but I admire your enthusiasm. :)

I hope that I'm wrong about Blender, because it would be nice to have a decent free alternative to commercial 3d modelling applications.


Naughty Alien(Posted 2008) [#25]
@ardee
I was talking about 3DSMAX as a one of the commercial softwares included in to your statement before, where you said that Blender is better feature by feature...so, in that manner, i said that 3DSMAX is more wider tool than Blender going to be any time soon..Vray is plug in renderer for 3dsmax, but if that is confusion, then you can took just Mentalray, whats standard package with 3dsmax..i wanna see some work in Blender what will makes me shy to use MentalRay..Im just confused actually by posts, where you with such strong confidence pushing a side products such as Softimage, Maya, 3dsmax, Houdini, Lightwave...


plash(Posted 2008) [#26]
Does it still have the same sucky interface?


sucky? it's not that bad once you start using it.

One of the things someone needs to do is round-up all the tutorials in one place.


D4NM4N(Posted 2008) [#27]
I actually prefer its interface to those of 3dmax, lightwave, truespace and hexagon. Its more intuitive. I also like the way all the controls can be scaled to any size and the layouts totally customised to suit you.

I especially like the file interface (the way you can store everything in a .blend file and treat it as an 'archive' by browsing inside it :)

I hope that I'm wrong about Blender, because it would be nice to have a decent free alternative to commercial 3d modelling applications.
You are and it is ;P


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#28]
One of the things someone needs to do is round-up all the tutorials in one place.

And burn them along with the software? ;)


Reactor(Posted 2008) [#29]
JustLuke, you are my new hero. I agree completely with what you're saying.

"Nice thread, I particularly like the life long 3DS Max user who after 15 minutes realised the power of Blender and it's UI."

I have to ask- how many people on this forum actually know what they're talking about when it comes to 3D? How many have a great deal of exposure to different 3D programs, and have used them in a professional (not indie game related, unless you've worked full-time as a 3D artist) context? I'm not trying to sound insulting, but since everyone on these boards has an opinion about Blender and it versus everything else... I'm left wondering if there's anyone here who has credentials (or weight behind what they're talking about), or whether it's just casual users throwing opinions around without anything behind them.


AdrianT(Posted 2008) [#30]
I think blender is awesome for free, but like others say. it's severely cripled by useless UI that makes it painful to use.

Also for games a tool is only as good as ite exporters.

As far a 3dsmax needing plugins to get things done. that used to be true right up untill around V6. I don't bother with any plugins these days, just a couple of scripts that provide shortcuts for texture baking etc.

Oh actually I do use shaderFX, which is a node based GPU shader editor similar to what comes with the Unreal3 engine and is awesome, especially with the new bridge to my Ogre exporter.

Having said that I believe someone has been trying to integrate the Ogre engine into blender in a similar way to how my current exporter has realtime WYSIWYG ogre rendering with sahders in a standard max viewport.

http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=169950#169950

Wonder what came of that?


D4NM4N(Posted 2008) [#31]
I have to ask- how many people on this forum actually know what they're talking about when it comes to 3D? How many have a great deal of exposure to different 3D programs, and have used them in a professional (not indie game related, unless you've worked full-time as a 3D artist) context? I'm not trying to sound insulting, but since everyone on these boards has an opinion about Blender and it versus everything else... I'm left wondering if there's anyone here who has credentials (or weight behind what they're talking about), or whether it's just casual users throwing opinions around without anything behind them.
Me.. I guess.. have worked professionally to some extent with both Max and Truespace before that to visualise prototype devices before they are assembled from working drawings. This usually included a mock 'environment' & animations (eg; showing a mockup of a mall with public info terminals or whatever) to make it look good for customers.
(Its not the movies or games, but it is "professional" modelling). I think a better question would be how many people actually own a (their OWN 100% legal) full version of 3D studio Max? Not many truthful ones ill wager.

Also, the guys behind the animation in spiderman 2 seem to know what they are doing and they were using it for character animation and pre-visuals. Other apps i have tried include AC3D, Some lightwave, Bryce, Wings, Some Maya, hexagon (this is also a quite good one for the price) and a few others not worth mentioning.

My point is still; No, blender isnt as "good" as the leading industry standard apps costing 1000s namely maya, XSI or Max. It is imo certainly better, as-good-as or nearly-as-good as the rest of them ive used, despite its quirky interface and is certainly a mountain more than enough for building, animating and exporting b3d models.


AdrianT(Posted 2008) [#32]
you certainly cant beat it for a freebie. Just like Gimp doesn't stand up well to photoshop for professional work. But it is feature rich and powerful and again, doesn't cost anything.

So if your on a budget, you really can't knock either of them.


D4NM4N(Posted 2008) [#33]
Its great that its free :D , however I would happily pay up to £200 (£250 tops) for it (blender), no more otherwise i might as well just pay extra and buy 3D studio cheap edition.

The gimp does have a few problems but is fairly capable. I prefer Paintshop myself. However, there are quite a few professionals using gimp though, mabe not photographers but in other areas like web designers, artists etc (not every professional *needs* GEGL support you know :).


JustLuke(Posted 2008) [#34]
The only thing good about Blender is that it is free.

I just don't get the "this software would be awful if you had to pay to use it, but since it's FREE, it's great!" logic that many people seem to employ. It represents defective reasoning. I mean, Hepatitis B is free too. Does this make it good?


AdrianT(Posted 2008) [#35]
I don't think any other free apps come close to blender as a complete, modeling, animation and rendering tool.

I remember when Blender was a commercial project. When I went to my first games industry convention, close to 10 years ago. Was about $200 initialy and was featured as the next best thing whilst doing the rounds at all the Games industry trade shows. Came with printed manual and everything. This was around the time 3dsmax 1 or 2 was out and I was using that at Uni.

It showed promise, but couldn't hold its own against lightwave, softimage original maya and 3dsmax and they went bankrupt soon after.

I think it was soon after that it was released for free. It's come a long way since then, but still has a rubbish GUI, which was its biggest problem a decade ago. Some things just don't seem to change much.

I probably still have the original brochure for blender in the attick back home, I left for the US soon after the trade show.


D4NM4N(Posted 2008) [#36]
I just don't get the "this software would be awful if you had to pay to use it, but since it's FREE, it's great!" logic that many people seem to employ. It represents defective reasoning. I mean, Hepatitis B is free too. Does this make it good? .
Who was saying that ? I wasnt. I said its great THAT its free, not great BECAUSE its free. I (and many others) would be happy to pay for it if the price was the same as other lo-cost modellers.
Anyway, you can PAY money for bad advice, bad food and bad building jobs (etc) but it doesnt make them good either. Software is no exception.