GameSpace? Not in my lifetime ...

Community Forums/Developer Stations/GameSpace? Not in my lifetime ...

Hambone(Posted 2003) [#1]
To those considering TS GameSpace:

I think GameSpace is absolutely crap. I have been disgusted with Caligari since the TS 6.6 release and I found out that .X export was removed.

It is time to vent.

Over the last 2 years I have probably thrown USD$1500 on TS upgrades and add on packs etc. Now after upgrading to TS6.6 I find they have crippled the .X export, something that, while not perfect, worked in TS6.5. I feel that since getting TS 4.0 I have continually been "bait and switched" from promised features that didn't work to ad on packs of second rate plugins whose developers no longer support them and are horribly difficult to get registered and then to find that they are so error prone as to be useless.

Even after all of the wasted money and deluded expectations I held out hope that Caligari would see the error of their ways and release a patch to address the removal of functionality in TS 6.6 that I have paid for over the years. No where in the upgrade literature did it say .X export was going to be removed.

But no. They again make a money grab and offer GameSpace to plug the gap.

Roman has lost his way from the early days and now only appears to focusing his efforts on milking every last penny out of his loyal customers.

I have had enough. I will no longer support Caligari. In fact I intend to go out of my way to persuade others to spend their hard earned money elsewhere and keep themselves from a litany disappointment. (Hence this post)

Others should do the same. Spend your money on a product that is stable, professionally supported and accepted. The price may be a little higher up front but at least the features you need will work and your tools won't risk removal or potential crippling with each upgrade.

What's next for TS7.0? Remove the render and offer a renderer pack for $199.99? Not beyond reason given Caligari's recent efforts ...

Vent complete.


Allan Hambrick


Zo Zo Zee Zar(Posted 2003) [#2]
It won't make u feel better but there is no need to buy GameSpace if you have TrueSpace - you can buy the GamePack for TS6.6 which will add all the stuff you want on.

I agree with you vent completely.


ashmantle(Posted 2003) [#3]
I have found the combination of Milkshape, Ultimate Unwrap3D and Silo to be the best solution for me.. not considering GameSpace anymore :)


Silo - www.nevercenter.com


Garion(Posted 2003) [#4]
As I understood it the .x fuctionality was removed in error by Caligari and a patch is being made availible soon. I seem to remember recieveing an email to this effect from Caligari, I will see if I can find it again.

As far as the FX packs are concerened I deliberatly stayed away from them and only purchased the plugins that I needed on a job by job basis. The Packs INMHO were a bad idea from the start as Caligari have no control over the companies that offer them for inclusion and if the company goes bust then yer up the creek without a paddle.

I have used Truespace myself since version 1 and my main gripe with it has always been stability. When I changed my OS 2 Win2K most of the stabilty issues vanished, but a few have still caught me unawares and had me Screaming at the Screen, tearing my hair out and queationing its parentage 8)

Concidering as well that you can get Truespace free on magazine CD's it does give a novice a road into 3D. Not everyone can afford 3DSMAx, Lighwave or Maya, so for a lot of people Truespace is/was their baptism to 3D. Though, Amapi, Carrara and some others are on CD's now as well, so there is now more choice for the novice.

In the end I suppose its down to personal preference really and also a case of what you are familiar with. One persons Dreampackage being another persons Nightmare, OMG I am going to scream package. 8)

Garion
from Scotland


TeraBit(Posted 2003) [#5]
I used TrueSpace from Version 2 to my current version (4.3). I believe that 4.3 was the highpoint in TrueSpace's development. Versions 5x and 6x were all very confusing and very unstable.


RexRhino(Posted 2003) [#6]
Well, I found TrueSpace to be a horribly non-user-friendly package when I tried the demos. But then again, I have found most modeling package to be quite non-user-friendly.


Gabriel(Posted 2003) [#7]
Truespace was my baptism to 3d. I used versions 1, 2 and 3 and I found it nice to use. But the more I learned, the more I found the limitations of Truespace to be a problem. I tried a demo of 4, and I thought it was moving forward too slowly, and not addressing fundamental workflow issues. I'm not a big fan of keyboard shortcuts, and it was becoming the only way to make anything in Truespace without it taking three months.

I agree entirely about the packs. It's a slippery slope.


MadJack(Posted 2003) [#8]
Hambone

Yep.

I bought 6.5 thinking it would be a good all-rounder for game content creation, now I wish I hadn't. It's flaky. I could forgive this in earlier versions, but not now at V6.5. An example? You can't copy and paste IK frames, instead you need to find and install a (thankfully free) 3rd party plugin to do so. Similarly, when animating an ik chain, make sure you go to the first frame and have selected the whole object, or your save may be corrupted. And make sure the 'nail' is in the same place at the start/end of your animation, else you'll get a save error. When you're working on such a labour intensive function as character animation, you just can't afford to have any doubts about the save function...

And yes, they 'broke' the directx import with their 'service pack', and although they said they'd fix it, they've been damned slow to do so.

Add to that the incessant flood of 'special time limited offers' that offer exactly the same thing each month at a 'never to be repeated price' and the fact that you have to pay for tutorials from their site, and it's just all round bollocks.

So my new rule of thumb is 'don't believe the hype!' and read the forums and see what people are griping about. If it seems to include core issues, beware!


RedRidingHood(Posted 2003) [#9]
I agree, trueSpace is garbage. I've tried it and I've found it is difficult to do anything in it, it's buggy and what's up with charging for bug fix updates?

I bet trueSpace will charge for the update reinstalling the .X exporting cababilites. :P

Personally I love the Wings 3D modeler. I actually get it and now that they are starting to get better documentation out I'm finding even better features. (AND IT'S FREE!!!)

Now if they can just improve their texturing capabilites, add animating features that are as easy to use and powerful as their modeling features and it will be better then anything short of the high end packages like Lightwave. :)


Perturbatio(Posted 2003) [#10]
what's up with charging for bug fix updates? 


Since when did they charge for bug fixes?

I get free updates for truespace all the time, always have done. Any fixes that were released in 6.6 will be available for 6.5, just not the enhancements.


Garion(Posted 2003) [#11]
I agree, trueSpace is garbage. I've tried it and I've found it is difficult to do anything in it


To be honest here, I have had the same problem with 3DS MAx and Lighwave. My lack of skill with them does not make these apps garbage, but rather different to what I am used to 8)

I do not use pirate software, so have not used 3DS Max or Lightwave since I retired from teaching. The cost of these apps is well out of my wifes purse capacity to pay for 8).

It all boils down to what you are used to.

One thing I always told my students was ' If at all possible use the software you are comfortable with to do the job asked of you. If the software cant do the job, then its time to look elsewhere'

Truespace does have its short comings which no one would deny, but to compare it to 3DS MAx, Lightwave et'al is just plain daft. For its price, its fine and over the years I have found my own little ways around its short commings.

I also use WIngs 3D, Bryce, Poser, Milshape and a whole raft of other apps depending on the project I am working on.

My main hangup with the subject of this thread is Not whether Truespace is garbage or not, but that a piece of software 'Gamespace' is being judged as garbage, when none of us have ever seen it in action.

Its not even availible yet, so I will wait until I have a truly informed oppinion from someone who has used or I personaly have tried a demo, before I make a judgment on it.


Garion
from Scotland


Hambone(Posted 2003) [#12]
I want to make it clear that I am not bashing the GameSpace product. It could very well split the atom but I'll never know because I won't be buying it. Not after the way they managed the TS product line.

Look, it boils down to this:

If I bought a nice car, drove it home and a few months later took it in for routine servicing and the shop gave it back to me with no wheels and an empty tank of gas and then charged me for the service and said I will have to pay extra if I wanted my wheels and gas back, I would likely have the case in front of the local magistrate/county official.

Caligari does it and everyone says "oooohh, look at the shiny wheels, yes please ..." because with SW we have little or no recourse.


So... I am voting with my wallet/feet and looking elsewhere. And, I am telling any soul who will listen along the way :)


RedRidingHood(Posted 2003) [#13]
"I get free updates for truespace all the time"

Really, and just where do they hide that link? Or do you know somebody?

Honestly, how many programs make you pay for a .1 update? Not even the top of the line programs (at least none that I know of), just trueSpace.


Perturbatio(Posted 2003) [#14]
http://www.caligari.com/download/ts6.asp?Cate=DTS5
http://www.caligari.com/download/ts5.asp?Cate=DTS5
http://www.caligari.com/download/ts4.asp?Cate=DTS5


Perturbatio(Posted 2003) [#15]
From the readme for the 6.5 patch


trueSpace 6.5 Service Pack.

In addition to more stability this free service pack also includes a number of other improvements over trueSpace 6.5.

Icon Helper.

The Icon Helper window allows you to easily found any tool or option from interface. In case you want to check if some hot key is used just place cursor into ‘Search Hot Key’ edit field and press key. When key is already used the tool became selected. In case you ale looking for some tool you may scroll through all usable tools in the tool list. Here you have currently used icon and description of the tool. In case tool has assigned a hot key the used hot key is visible in the Assigned Hot Keys section. Here you may assign, remove or change the hot key. To open Icon Helper just click on icon or mouse hovering over a tool and pressing Ctrl-F1 brings up the Icon Helper panel with the selected tool highlighted.

Category: The category combo box allows you to choose a category of tools. There are two special categories: Options and Hot Keys. Option category includes all check boxes and radio buttons. But in case you select for example “Primitives” category you will see there options related to primitives too. Hot Keys category shows all tools and options with assigned Hot Keys.

• Find Text: Click on the opens Find text dialog that allows find tool by given text.

• Inspect Tool: Click on the button starts inspect mode. Cursor is changed and you may click on any button in user interface. The clicked button became selected in the list box. Right click stops inspect mode.

• Find Tool:This button allows you to localize tool in interface. (Not fully implemented yet.) When you click on this button short animation shows you where the tool or option button is housed. (Do not move mouse during animation because cursor position is changed by program.)

• Save Hot Keys: This button allows you to save list of hot keys in text or HTML format. In the Save As dialog you may set option Save All and list of all tools will be created. For the HTML format the icons are saved too into subfolder of the folder where file is placed. The subfolder name is created from html file name with suffix “images”. For example you saved the hot key list into file: c:\test\keylist.htm and images are stored in c:\test\keylist_images folder.

• Tool list: This list box contain list of all available tools and options.

• Assigned Hot Keys: Here you may assign remove or change a hot key. Just place cursor into edit field and press Hot key - new key is added. (You may use any edit field the key will be displayed in the first empty field.) To remove existing hot key just click on the button. To set the “Right-click” functionality just check ‘RClick’ Check box.

• Search Hot Key: Place cursor into edit field and press key. When key is already used the tool became selected.

Local Decimal Separator

The Local Dec. option in the preferences panel allows use of the local decimal separator in typed numbers.

Global and Interactive Replace with Metaballs

Now you could replace target object with metaballs primitives. Any object could be replaced by one single metaball primitive. So if you have selected whole metaball and you are not creating separate metaballs, then as a source is taken first metaball primitive.

If you have selected metaball primitive and performing replace, then you could choose from 3 possible results:

Create separate objects - this will replace objects and create metaball on every target object :

In this case if you have selected whole metaball, then you will be replacing with whole metaball ( see also part about random source).

Add To Source - every replaced object is replaced with metaball primitive and replaced mataball primitive is added to source metaball

In this case if you have selected whole metaball, then you will be replacing with first metaball primitive ( see also part about random source).

Group To New Metaball - every replaced object is replaced with metaball primitive and from all replaced mataballs primitives is created one new metaball

In this case if you have selected whole metaball, then you will be replacing with first metaball primitive ( see also part about random source).

Random Source

If you have checked “Random Source” and you have selected whole metaball as a source, then replaced objects are replaced by randomly selected metaball primitive from selected metaball.

Now it is easy to create physical simulation with normal objects and then replace it with metaballs.


UV Mapping Editor

Weld Vertices Tool

The Weld vertices tool allows you to weld several UV vertices into one. Manipulating with the new vertex is then like manipulating with all welded vertices at once. The position of the new vertex is the average of all source vertices. Source vertices are those which were selected at time of activating the Weld tool.

Example of working with the Weld vertices tool: First , two vertices are selected (1st picture), Weld tool is activated (2nd picture) and then another two vertices are selected and welded (3rd picture).

Break Mesh Tool

The Break tool allows you to separate a section of the mesh and manipulate it independently from the rest. By activating this tool, currently selected faces are separated along the edges from the rest of the mesh.
Here is a short tutorial illustrating the high level basic concepts on how the UVE can be used to place faces in different places for using or creating a unified texture map. The object used can be found in the objects library.

The image below shows model with the different parts pre-colored for mapping purposes. By applying a planer UV map and selecting just the front faces (a saved selection) you can begin to separate the parts of the mesh for manipulation in the UVE. You can see the wires in their different colors when you open the UVE. Among other things this helps keep track of left and right initially. Note that only the selected faces appear in the display.


Select all the faces and move them over to one side. Then select all the faces and open the UVE. Notice that the previous selected faces are still in the position you moved them to when you zoom out. Note that you can select any group of faces (hands, feet, ears) and map a new UV on them and the change will show up in the UVE where you can move them around.

Now that you have single layers of faces to work with you can easily select faces and separate them in the UVE using the “Break Mesh along edges” tool. This allows you to place them over specific areas of a map or to prepare a map from the wire output to a 2D paint program. First you paint the faces all one color as you can’t separate across wire colors with this tool. You do that with direct selection on the model and then open the UVE. If you have a texture map already created now is a good time to apply it.

Now when you open up the UVE you can select a group of faces, break them off, and move them where you want. Note that your updates display in real time on the model if a texture is applied.

With the several ways to separate out face selections both on the model and in the UVE, weld faces into combined groups, and apply independent UV to each, any mapping task you are faced with can be handled.

UV Unwrapper Tool

Holding ALT key when activating unwrapper tool will allow you to run the process of slicing the object (UV Slice tool) and unwrapping (UV Unwrapper tool) in one step. The process is done on a copy of the object so that only the object’s UV mapping is changed and nothing else. It prevents topology changes caused by UV Slice tool on the original object. This helps especially when unwrapping SDS objects.




RedRidingHood(Posted 2003) [#16]
Too bad they don't put that in their sales pitch that they email to everybody.

'course if they emailed that information to people like they do their sales pitch they wouldn't make as much money would they?

Oh, and do you have to be signed in some way to find those links? The high version bug fixes I could find were for trueSpace 5.


Perturbatio(Posted 2003) [#17]
TS6.5 service pack: http://www.caligari.com/download/ts6.asp?Cate=DTS5

You need to be a registered user to download them, finding them, you don't need to log in as far as I know.


Garion(Posted 2003) [#18]
[Quote}Too bad they don't put that in their sales pitch that they email to everybody.[/Quote}

When I bought Truespace, the first thing I did was register it. I would suspect that most legitimate users of Truespace would do the same. Having done this, I was immediatly made aware of the download load links by Caligari.

I see no purpose in the links being put on the sales pitch as they are no use to anyone who does not own the product and are an after sales support issue.

Many Software developers are making their program updates availible to registered users only and require a username and a password to obtain the link to the update, so Caligari are not out of the ordinary here.

The only people that are being put out here are the pirates and I would assume that there are illegal ways to obtain anything on the net.

As for voting with My wallet, I will not vote at all, until I have seen the software in action.

Garion
from Scotland

garion
from Scotland

If any registered user of Truespace has lost the link, then a quick email to Caligari will sort this out.


RedRidingHood(Posted 2003) [#19]
When I bought Truespace, the first thing I did was register it. I would suspect that most legitimate users of Truespace would do the same. Having done this, I was immediatly made aware of the download load links by Caligari.


Why? What purpose does it serve to register? On the Blitz site, I registered so I could access the forums and therefore found the updates link. I really didn't feel like joining the trueSpace forums so I didn't find the other stuff you get for registering. They really didn't do a very good job of letting their customers know that these free updates exist.

I see no purpose in the links being put on the sales pitch as they are no use to anyone who does not own the product and are an after sales support issue.


Erm, I'm talking about the emails they send to people who have bought the program, so yes they would be of use to the people who have bought the program.

The only people that are being put out here are the pirates and I would assume that there are illegal ways to obtain anything on the net.


Ha! I scoff at thee. I am one of the ones put out and I am a legitimate owner, that kind of an arguement is a cop-out.

I am here going to bow out of this argument (unless you say something that really annoys me ;)) because I will never convince you of trueSpace's problems and you haven't said anything to convince me that trueSpace is anything other then the DarkBasic of the 3D modelling world.


Garion(Posted 2003) [#20]
I am here going to bow out of this argument (unless you say something that really annoys me ;)) because I will never convince you of trueSpace's problems and you haven't said anything to convince me that trueSpace is anything other then the DarkBasic of the 3D modelling world.


I am not trying to upset anyone here sir, I was merely trying to supply supply answers to the points you raised.

A. Gamespace, is not out yet so I won't vote until I try out the demo.

B. Truespace DOES have problems, but then so does most software.

C. Another member pointed out that the updates are availible free.

D. If you do not register the software then how can you be informed of updates? The software may have been bought for a company, someone else etc, so without the owners (not purchasers) email address you cannot be informed.

I use many different applications on a daily basis, Truespace is only one of them and I am well aware of its short comings, I cannot afford 3DSMax, Lightwave et al.

As I said at the begining its a matter of what you are used to and I suppose feeel comfortable with.

With the exception of the 'problems' Trucepace has, all the other points you have raised have been addressed.

Cheers

Garion
from Scotland


Rottbott(Posted 2003) [#21]
D. If you do not register the software then how can you be informed of updates? The software may have been bought for a company, someone else etc, so without the owners (not purchasers) email address you cannot be informed.

It could be mentioned somewhere in the software itself?


Garion(Posted 2003) [#22]
I beleive its mentioned in the manual and on the website, but will have to check.

I did have the following on my invoice tho.

If you have any questions about your purchase, please contact our customer support by email at
custsrv@..., or by telephone at 1-800-351-7620
(International callers please dial US +650-390-9600).
Working hours are from 8:00AM-5:00PM Pacific Standard
Time.

>From everyone at Caligari, thank you for your support.


Also there is a link to Caligari's website inside TS 6 (dont know about earlier versions).

Anyhoo, I hope this helps clear up some misconceptions. I am not a TS zealot by any means, I just hate to see judgments being made about anything on information that is sketchy or just plain wrong. 8)

I am currently fighting with Cinema4D ver 6, I upgraded the free version on PC arts. Its another app I added to my arsenal and I will use it alongside All my others 8)

Garion
from Scotland


dmoc(Posted 2003) [#23]
More reason to support Blender! I have never considered buying TS because of the cost of pluggins. When NAN went under (several months after I bought Publisher) I wanted a package I could get support on and decided LW looked good for me. It's just took me 2 months to get an answer to a support question. So am I going to upgrade to LW8... not a chance! I'd rather spend the *upgrade* cost of LW8 on RealSoft3D... but then Blender is improving quickly now... and is free!


Kozmi(Posted 2003) [#24]
This is a very interesting thread here and many thanks to everyone that has put in there kind replies towards this software in question. However though... I believe that the use of the software depends on the individual at hand as I have found many application suit certain individuals accordingly! I have used many app's that I too thought were clumsly and useless for me as well, But then I read others replies about the use of thoes certain applications and found that other users where able to understand & use the software better than I can.. I guess it depends on the persons perception and intake of the software and it's controls and how they relate to you the end user! Some people can use app's that have alot of functions to it..some other users want a more simplfied version of such applications due to there intake of the use of the software.
I have been considering of weather or not to purchase GameSpace...But then again...I also have TrueSpace 5 and I was wondering to myself why should I buy gamespace when I already have truespace 5 ?!? However though, I've only been toying around with TrueSpace 5 and 3DSMax and also LightWave 3D 7.0
I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford these high-end applications... But in all honesty here.
I have been using MilkShape 3D for quite some time now and I like the way MilkShape 3D is!!! It's real dam simple to use and make low-poly models with it for your games.. But I also decided that I wanted to get real good at a professional modeller package and thus got the other 3 to choose which one I want to stick with and learn from.. I worked with all 3 of them and I found that I liked LightWave 3D because it's real similar to that of MilkShape 3D... Where the other's cluster their interface's with hords of unfamilar icons that takes awhile to decipher & figure them out before you can actually use the software to it's maxium potential... LightWave 3D use's plan words on ther tool-buttons.. I like that approch.. Plus anyways..
Support for a product is important here..But when you have a vast array of forums & great tutorials to goto... You normally will find most of all your answers already there! So very seldom should you ever really need to go the route of emailing customer support enless you absolutly can't find anything on the support forums or tutorials...
Just my two cents worth on that issue..
But I have decided that Im' going to learn LightWave 3D for all of my modeling needs.. I hope TrueSpace will improve in time for there customers sake or they will end up losing in the long run towards the others in time...

P.S. I really dont care for TrueSpace myself though due to
the impending issues mentioned above as I have
undergone many of the same issues as you guys have to!


Not Available(Posted 2003) [#25]
Hah,

I started with Imagine on the amiga, progressing through Truespace 1-3 on the PC, then finally moving to 3DS Max. In a moment of serious frustration I decided two years ago to try and go 100% Mac at home, and subsequently bought Cinema 4D R6 - however changing from PC to Mac turned out to me pretty much impossible for me. In saying that I've got C4D v6 for sale (MAC) if anyone wants it - send me an email...

Anyhow... I digress... perhaps 6 months ago I was sucked in by one of the sales emails and upgraded to 5.5 (I think it was... that shows you how much I used it) for texture baking etc. I was so wholly unimpressed by how the app had developed, and it's stability - and the seeming stream of pay-to-upgrade emails that followed that I uninstalled... I would have gone fora refund; however fond memories of the past stopped me from doing so..., I used to absolutely love TS3 all those years ago - it's such a shame that they appear to be trying to play catch-up with maya and the like. They need to remember their roots and not play me-too, the quality of their software is suffering - it takes a lot to turn off loyal customers.

-R