Lastest Worklog Discussion
BlitzPlus Forums/BlitzPlus Programming/Lastest Worklog Discussion
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| If you haven't already please read Mark's latest worklog on B+ dev and post your thoughts/comments here. I think this is going to be a great update. Cant wait for B+ online docs to be updated so I can read up on these new commands. The alternative gfx modes sound very interesting. |
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| While it's always a wait for new updates, they're always worth it. Can't wait to get my teeth into B+ again...been taking a break to work on university projects, but looking forward to getting back to the BASICs ;) Should be an useful update =) |
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| Can't wait |
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| Im going to write some tools for my project, and the news seems like good news to me.. doesn't matter if its a little wait before we have it ;) |
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| I am hoping by "'Native' graphics drivers" he means we can compile games that are NOT DX dependent. I am VERY reluctant to release an app that is DX based. I would much rather use Blitz Plus than Jamagic, but at least with Jamagic, I can make apps and games that are not DX dependent. Unfortunately it sounds like Blitz Plus is going to be put on the back burner soon so Maplet can get revamped :c( |
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| Sounds good! I hope it means b+ will eventually go completely DX-less, and end up using openGL by force. Also allowing 2d alpha/rotation/scaling !! The other stuff soudns great too, access to hwnds has got to be usefull :D |
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| Brice: Out of curiosity, does that mean you prefer OpenGL, or something else altogether (ie, not DX or OpenGL)? |
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| There is DX, openGL and native software rendering modes. But as it says in the worklog, openGl and native are very much preliminary at the moment and you should stick to DX rendering for the meantime if you want stability. |
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| Oi, flack, get back to work, there's a mute game needin your attention. Coder Harassment TM - Another fine service available now from Armstrong Communications Ltd. If you have requirements in the motivation department and would rather be abused than "managed" (<- Dr Evil quotes) then contact skidracer today, he can even kick. |
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| yay :D I can't wait either... :):):):):):):P):):):):P ...this update does sound very good |
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| Out of curiosity, does that mean you prefer OpenGL, or something else altogether Heck no. No OGL,No DX and no long dead DD. None of that crud is necessary for 2D. GDI or a proprietary software renderer. Releasing a standard (nogaming) app dependent on ANY version of DD is suicide. You cannot convince me that something Jamagic has been able to do since it was released is something that Mark cannot do in Blitz. Luckily, it appears Mark is starting down that road now. :cD |
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| ^^^"Lickily"??? |
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| "Lickily"??? I have 20/200 vision without my glasses on. Look up the definition of legally blind. If it makes ya feel good to pick on an old codger, so be it :cp |
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| Hi, It is *almost* possible to write a completely DD-free program in BP. The 'Native' driver (which uses my own fairly unoptimized software blitting routines, as they appear to be faster than GDI's BitBlt!) is designed to work on bog-standard systems. However, the system currently selects DirectDraw as the default startup driver. What I'll probably do is add a 'Safe mode' command line switch (selectable from the IDE) that starts the system up in purely Native mode, and from there your code can choose to use Native, DirectDraw or OpenGL drivers at runtime. BlitzPlus will indeed be receiving attention during Maplet development, as Maplet itself is a GUI based program that uses the BP libs. |
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| Mark, thank you a million :c) |
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| "If it makes ya feel good to pick on an old codger, so be it :cp" The really cool thing is that your vision is selective too... Ya only muffed one word... 8^) All in fun... |
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| Mark, When you release the update please update the demo as well because the current one still doesn't work on my computer. Thanks. |
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| Whilst I'm all for the non-reliance on 3rd-party doohickies (DX, OpenGL et al) for 2D, given that BlitzPlus now uses DX1, and all versions of Windows (95 up) come with some version of DX installed, and Blitz is ostensibly a programming language that produces games and/or applications exclusively for the Windows environment (at the moment)... why is a reliance on DX (if anything) bad? Just to help you decipher my tone, I fully expect someone to tell me why it's bad, and then I'll say something like "Aaaah yes, of course, now I see". |
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| what will openGL give you access to from the openGL api? ie: is it only the 2d part of GL or a complete implementation? |
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| I don't see Mark implementing full 3D OpenGL support into BlitzPlus at the price it's currently selling for... Probably just basic 2D stuff and if he gets around to it, fancier 2D stuff ;] LineOf7s : It's not neccessarily bad, considering it's a Windows only program anyway, but variety is the spice of life. Tacky cliches aside, Mark is working feverishly on alternative rendering (non-DX) for BlitzMax. His Worklog suggests that... well, basically these non-DX gfx modes are testbeds for the bigger picture... Public experimentation, really. I guess he figured it wouldn't be such a bad thing to share it with the peoples. I'm kinda surprised really. 'Sall good, of course. |
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| and all versions of Windows (95 up) come with some version of DX installed, That is an incorrect statement. There were three main versions of Windows 95 released. The first version of Windows 95 (upgrade for 3.1) that came out in the fall of '94 does NOT have DX capabilities, nor does the first OEM version. The only version of Windows 95 that shipped with DX capabilities was the last OEM version which had IE4 and Active Desktop integrated. For these people to get DX, they have to download the 25MB file for DX8/9, pretty stupid for an application that has absolutely no use of DirectDraw and gains absolutely no benefit from using it. Application (REAL applications and not game development tools) users and game players are two different markets. People who do not play games, do not upgrade their systems very often, there is just no need to. Windows environment (at the moment)... why is a reliance on DX (if anything) bad? I am not sure where you have been, but DirectDraw died many years back. Microsoft officially pulled the plug on it back when DirectX 8 was being developed. I think the better question is to have somebody explain why you need to use DirectDraw to write an application (non game development tools)? Everybody seems to forget that Blitz Plus is capable of turning out real applications. Even the folks at Blitz forget this as it was quite noticeable that applications (nongame development tools) were NOT requested for the Blitz CD. I do not share the "bloat because you can" theory of programming. Artificially inflating the minimum requirements of a product just to use an outdated API that provides absolutely no benefit is silly, irresponsible and definitely not needed. Dead technology is dead for a reason and the only languages out there dependent on DD have been game development languages, there is just no use for it in languages meant to develop applications. Blitz Plus can do both, as does Jamagic which has been around for a long time and has always had the software rendering so apps do not have to use DirectDraw. Software rendering (if done properly) is perfectly fast for 2D games (or apps), and Windows GDI is perfectly fine for applications. Just to help you decipher my tone, Just so you can understand mine, I believe in programming ethics and I believe in being responsible in the work I do, and I believe in treating my customers with respect. It really bothers me to have to explain to the three beta testers that ran into a problem with my program after it had been ported to Blitz Plus as to why they now have to download a graphics API aimed at gamers just to use a simple program aimed at professional writers. People need to remember that Blitz Plus is capable of applications now, not just game development tools. Personally, I waited a while before I bought Blitz Plus and I did not purchase it until I saw Mark state that Software/GDI modes would be coming in the future. I am glad to see that coming into fruition :c) |
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| > Application (REAL applications and not game development tools) users and game players are two different markets. True - and at least some offices *refuse* to load directx since it is game related. |
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| why not just use Python ? it is free, easy to learn and free. [EDIT] not a flame. I AM looking forward to this update as well as Maplet 2.0. |
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| Well before we start arguing over whether DX1 should or shouldn't be used for apps, let's not forget that Mark has already answered this saying that there is a way NOT to have to use DirectDraw at all in your compiled BlitzPlus app. Therefore, if you want to write an application designed for such computers (even though hardly many early-95 computers are used anymore) then you can do that in B+. If you want to write a 2D Windows game that will run on pretty much any computer belonging to someone that wants to run a game at all then you can do that too. Mark even said that his own blitting commands are notably faster than the Windows GDI Bitblt stuff. |
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| even though hardly many early-95 computers are used anymore That is a false assumption many jump to. |
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| hmm i guess all early win95 users must have shot either themselves or their computers out of annoyance :D |
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| If people don't spend money to upgrade their computer, I find it hard to believe that they will buy a shareware game I made anyways.. Its just about knowing your targeted audience, and since we'll have a solution to the DD/GUI issue soon, everyone will be happy :) |
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| I agree with Ogre. |
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| I make that assumption because even people I know who still have a Pentium II have upgraded to WindowsXP with it. The earliest OS I know anyone to have is Windows98, and there aren't many people I know who have that anymore. (In fact they are all people I speak to on IRC, so maybe WindowsXP is more popular in UK than it is in US..?) |
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| soooo... software renderer, hey? does this mean blitzplus could some day hypothetically theoretically speaking, possibly maybe, get alpha and rotation built in? i hope so! |
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| My mum runs Windows 95, and my brother and his wife also did up until recently. It's certainly not all that uncommon, and neither of them really had any need to upgrade given what they do. |
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| Out of curiosity, what did they use the computer for? Did they play any games on the comp? What kind of price range and quality were the games, if any? |
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| soooo... software renderer, hey? does this mean blitzplus could some day hypothetically theoretically speaking, possibly maybe, get alpha and rotation built in? Why add it to the software renderer when we have OpenGL? |
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| theres a very good reason - im an idiot ;) lol, i completely forgot :P |
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| I can think of more people with 98 than anything else. Don't personally know anyone with XP. |
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| Mum and Dad play a variety of Tetrisy, Mah Jong and Solitaire/card type games. These are naturally shareware type games, most probably bought off the shelf for $10 at the local Harvey Norman. If you make these kinds of games and intend to sell them, ignore the "crusty old computer that Mum has" market at your own peril, cos loads of non-serious gamers go in for these types of games and have pretty old systems with pretty old software. My brother prefers commercial strategy games, MOO 2, Dune, Command and Conquer, etc. Both machines would run BlitzPlus games just fine though (Mum's needed an upgrade to DirectX for Blitz3D though), as would most other 95 machines still in service I suspect. DirectX 7 is still available and only a 6MB download in any case. I'm quite surprised to learn that BlitzPlus needs DirectX just for the GUI components however. |
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| IMO any commercial game made in Blitz ought to have a DX installer on the disc. I don't know many games you buy that would say "This game requires DirectX, and you have to download it yourself." Any Blitz game that is shipped should be so with a DX installer included on the CD.. |
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| Well that's pretty obvious, but the easiest and cheapest method for distribution on-line is via download, and the aim here is obviously to keep the size to a minimum. |
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| Michael, OpenGL support in BlitzPlus is likely to be very sucky for a long time... ;] |
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| Cyberseth: I believe it isn't that easy to ship DX with your CD.. Maybe Microsoft have a say in it? Someone correct me if I'm wrong! :) |
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| Cyberseth: I believe it isn't that easy to ship DX with your CD.. Maybe Microsoft have a say in it? Someone correct me if I'm wrong! :) you are wrong. Read your license in your DX SDK. The runtimes included with the SDK are redistributable. The public downloads are not. My mum runs Windows 95, and my brother and his wife also did up until recently. It's certainly not all that uncommon, You want a laugh in '99 I did some payroll software for an Austrailian Bank and they were using WFW 3.11DOS based systems are still in wide use business wise, too. And its not always "little" companies running DOS based systems. With companies, depending on the work they do, there is often no need to upgrade. Even some of the poorer countries, their infrastructure is using DOS. Even in the private sector, there are likely more DOS/win 3.1 systems still in use than 32bit Win systems. When the private sector gets rid of these old DOS systems, they are often "donated" and go into schools, libraries, various nonprofit businesses, etc. Computers have a MUCH longer lifespan than people think. Programmers, digial artists and diehard gamers are the only demographic that upgrade on a regular basis. For them it is a "necessity" for most folks it isn't. |
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