Making money with games - Paul Thelen
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| Here is Paul Thelen's seminar at Casual Connect Kiev 2012, where he discusses making money with games - something most of us are keen to do. It also includes some nice sales stats (with developer's consent) for a bunch of casual games. It's nearly an hour long but the last 20 minutes or so are a Q&A session. The 40 minutes before that is interesting, though. [edit] Er... you'll be wanting a link, then! [edit again] Dammit. Can somebody move this to General Discussion (where I MEANT to put it)? Last edited 2012 |
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| Yeah, watched this a few weeks ago, pretty informative. Nice to have some hard data to refer to. Actually watching this made me want to make casual games, for a while. Last edited 2012 |
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| Interesting stuff, thanks Gfk! |
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| Very interesting... thanks Dave :) (BTW have you seen today's new release on BFG...) |
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| (BTW have you seen today's new release on BFG...) [edit] Just watched the video - seems quite good and a brave move going for the Mahjong style of gameplay over a tried-and-tested hi/lo formula. [edit] Actually.... you thought that was mine, didn't you? ;) Last edited 2012 Last edited 2012 |
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| It is nice to have Subtitle to know what he saying but why does he keep say Uh and Uh and so on ! |
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| So build a great looking HO game and you are settled? How long does it take to build such a game usually? Which tools is BFG accepting these days to create your games. As they need ports for all major platforms, I guess you can't use BlitzMax for it, or? |
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| Just watched the video - seems quite good and a brave move going for the Mahjong style of gameplay over a tried-and-tested hi/lo formula. Actually.... you thought that was mine, didn't you? I did at first.... but then I thought it might be Anawiki's (since he did Soccer Solitaire in the Mahjong style). I played the demo, its okay, just doesn't seem to play quite right and the font really spoils the look. As they need ports for all major platforms, I guess you can't use BlitzMax for it, or? They don't require you to do all platforms, only if you want to do them. I've got a few BlitzMax made games on there. There are even a few GameMaker games on there too. |
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| They don't require you to do all platforms, only if you want to do them. I've got a few BlitzMax made games on there. There are even a few GameMaker games on there too. Hey that is good to know. I take it that you get less money when they do the port, or? Do they work with their own system of Leaderboards, Achievements and stuff like that? Do they require such things? |
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| Paul Thelen was showing some numbers regarding made money. Are these the total sales or just what the developer took home? Is there public information on what kind of percentage you get when you publish through BFG? |
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| Are these the total sales or just what the developer took home? They are gross sales, as far as I know (I'm sure he said at some point). But the figures are not 'final' as the games continue to sell [well].With BFG you normally get 40% (exclusive) or 35% (non-exclusive). Now, I'm reluctant to mention that as I know precisely where this thread is now going, so before it does, what you (as in, "anybody" - not any specific person) are actually getting by releasing this way is a "fire and forget" method of releasing a game. You don't have to do any marketing, no websites, no promotion whatsoever, no customer service (in my experience) and you're putting your game immediately before an audience of several million customers. If you think this sucks and you can do better yourself, then you're of course free to do so. |
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| Thanks GFK for the info. So gross sales means what BFG made. Still a 40% rate to the developer is a great result with these numbers. I like the BFG way of doing things. And what you can't value here, or better what is invaluable is the huge audience they reach. With that huge customerbase, they can push any game into number 1 spot. Awesome! This video put my view on the different markets/stores into a different perspective. Of course with a crappy game (gameplay and looks) you won't get not far anyway. I am sure they won't even consider it. |
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| Interesting stuff! So who on here has published with BFG and would you say it is as lucrative as he makes out? Naturally the top 25 or so games will do well, but not every game will remain in the top 25 let alone get there. Anyone had recent experience with this? It would be really interesting If he had explained what ranking the "average" had on their top100 and what place it stayed to achieve those better them modest results. Last edited 2012 |
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| LoS got to no. 9 in their Top 100, and I was more than pleased with my cut... the first month was a nice 5 figure sum :-) |
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| LoS? |
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| Legends of Solitaire |
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| Interesting stuff! So who on here has published with BFG and would you say it is as lucrative as he makes out? Definitely, but the top-selling titles naturally have much higher production costs. Time investment aside, Crime Solitaire was done on a budget of under $200, and saw a five-figure return in the first month. My new game, out mid-December, has cost me a bit under $6,000 as I outsourced as much as possible to free myself up for programming. Because both the artwork and game are of much higher quality, I expect a better return. Both these are clearly low-budget, though. I wouldn't expect much change out of a six-figure sum for a top-drawer HO/adventure that gave me a $500,000+ return. |
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| $500.000+ O-O Holy cow! Regarding outsourcing. Do you use services from Asia where it is usually more cheap then using services from the western world? EDIT: Which tools to you use for your games? Last edited 2012 |
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| Interesting approach, but no. The guys I used were all in the US. Basically consisted of a freelance artist and a voiceover guy. Tools? I already had them all from previous projects. When I'm doing my own artwork I generally use Flash, 3DS Max and Photoshop, depends what I'm doing. I also use Soundforge for audio stuff. For actual coding, Blitzmax and BLIde. Also I use Mantis for bug tracking, and Subversion for backups. I've also used DazStudio in the past, and Vue for scenery renders. They were free/cheap respectively, but you then have to buy the assets so its very easy for the cost to run out of control that way. The shopping list can get a bit pricey when you go for pro tools, so for just messing about or starting out, you're much better off sticking to cheaper alternatives like Audacity, blender, paintshop, inkscape etc. unless you ave a bag of cash spare and not much sense. Last edited 2012 |
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| Gfk, That is quite interesting (verrrrryyy interesting) info. So I'm not asking for specific figures here, but what about your match 3 project how did that one go? What about any months after the initial month of sales on your projects? Did you see decent stats then? What kind of development time did it take for your crime solitaire? Hopefully that is not prying too much, but it has opened my eyes a little and they sound quite interesting projects to work on! [edit] Oh and do big fish pose many restrictions on content visual, gameplay mechanics and such? Whats it been like working with these guys? I am the man with many questions! Last edited 2012 |
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| Skn, it is the same with me. Since GFK posted that video it open my eyes on this business. i appreciate the info he gave very much. Please tell us more. |
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| Magicville: Art of Magic didn't do enormously well, on the whole. But it's not as straightforward as that. It took me two and a half years to complete, and was abandoned at least twice. I did all the artwork myself with Daz Studio and Vue, and that's what took much of the time. Progress had stopped for several months at one point as I couldn't get into a workflow with any graphics style I was happy with. Other than the time investment, it did make enough for me to buy a Mac, plus I upgraded my camera to a Canon EOS 450D and various lenses including a 500mm monster of a lens which alone cost over £600. But bigger than that, and regardless of the money it made, the results encouraged me to do more. You'll remember when I was writing for Idigicon I said 'i quit' after nearly every game because it was too much work for too little reward. So, if nothing else, the change in attitude should tell you that since I partnered with BFG, i'm in a much better place both financially and mentally. Crime Solitaire (which took about nine months) is still selling quite well, over a year after release. Although it did five figures in its first month, monthly stats now are much lower but importantly, its still steady month on month. I couldn't really live on the monthly sales now if that's all there was, so i had to bear in mind that the massive sales spike at the start is going to have to supplement my income until the next sales spike (when my next game is released, next month). If you go out and spend your first months income on the assumption that the next 6 or 12 months will be the same, then you'll probably be up crap creek because it just doesn't work like that. About BFG - I like working with them. There's no pressure as the only deadline I have ever had, is the ones I set for myself. Without giving too much away, the intro for my new game made a few of the female members of staff squirm a bit, so they did ask if I could tone down a little by removing certain graphic elements (one was a hatchet, so I replaced it with a sink plunger for comedy effect). Other than that they've never really asked me to hold back with anything, but that's maybe because I know what the target audience is and work towards that anyway. They do supply you with a document on their guidelines/standards but the majority is common sense, like making sure the game can exit cleanly by whatever method is 'standard' for the OS etc, storing game data in the correct place etc. also, it's handy to do lots of research and find out how games similar to yours function, and how the player is expected to interact with them. That will give you the best idea of how to deal with functionality. Just a wee discaimer, this stuff is only my personal experience. Others might have had the same experiences or could differ greatly to my own, but that's obviously for them to say. |
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| Man, thanks for all the inside! Of course it is only your experience. Maybe therevills will tell a little about it too! |
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| Yeah I do remember those idigicon days, glad I never fell in and got tempted to dev for them as it probably would have squashed my motivation as well. Infact my previous job did the exact same to me and ended up pushing me away from web stuff and back into game related stuff! It is good that art of magic gave you back the creative spark, its a hard habbit/hobby/profession to draw away from :)! The bit about the money spike is very helpful and I currently have over a year practice living off a micro budget. Been developing Objecty for quite a while now ( http://www.objecty.co.uk ) and launched a kickstarter, but the Kickstarter campaign has not gone down well. It has had amazing feedback from most people but just not backed up with high enough numbers of backers. I put it down to bad timing, rushing some finer details and not enough money left in the kitty to do things properly. So I have to go back to the drawing board and earn some more before I spend some more developing it further. It will pay off in the long run but the short term is stressful, highly! Thats interesting to hear about the documents and good freedom to create. So did you arrange a partnership prior to developing your games or did you send over a prototype of some sort? Totally get that these are your experiences, all I have ever heard is positive from BFG so its really helpful to get some actual detailed info about it all. I have a good idea for a game based on the casual genre, I also have a decent (original I think?) idea for a higher risk arcade physics game which I have the starts of a prototype. but the draw of something with less risk is too much to ignore. At least to give myself a boost after the let down of kickstarter. All very interesting. Thanks :) It is very interesting isnt it Mike! Is that like a "pinky, are you thinking what im thinking?" ... "DERP whats that brain?" ... "its time to take over the world!" moment? lol Would be interested to hear other experiences people have! Got a massive help from lady luck and won nearly £3k on a lottery ticket.. so its decision time, what do I invest that into! .. Arcade game, more objecty dev, casual game.. hmm I know which one seems most sensible! Last edited 2012 |
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| Nothing was agreed beforehand. All three of my games were at beta stage before I even submitted them to anybody, and to be honest I would never tie myself into a contract on an unfinished project anyway, unless it was being funded, as there's no advantage in doing so. With contracts, come deadlines, deadlines = stress, stress = another nervous breakdown (I've had some spectacular meltdowns in recent years and been on medication since 2006, so I don't fancy another episode!). I did show the intro as soon as it was done (and that was about 60% of the way through development). The reason I did that was because I thought I might be sailing a bit close to the wind with the theme (there's kind of a growing tension feel with something happening right at the end), and as it turned out, I was right. But a video of the intro was all that they saw, not a half-finished, bug-ridden game which might have painted the game in a very dim light. Everybody is always eager to show off what they've done - I am too, but ultimately you don't want anybody seeing your game until it's at its absolute best, because that's what it's going to get judged on. |
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| Good tips, thanks Gfk. |
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| Crikey sounds like a difficult time! Stress is a hard beast to tame, I have not had an "official" nervous breakdown but definitely come close. Thanks for the really helpful tips, has give me a lot to think about. I think I need to go away, write a project plan and then evaluate how viable it all is. |
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| Thanks for posting that Gfk, really helpful...intrigued by your game now too. |
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| I'm about to get my 8th game on BFG and some other portals, although it's really my 4th game with new levels and some tweaks (Holiday Bonus GOLD). It's seems there's at least 3 people (GfK, theRevills, Anawiki) from this forum using BlitzMax who are making Fairway Solitaire clones (I coded that for BFG in 2007 and it did very well, no. 3 in the top 10, and good money but I can't say how much due to contractual agreement). Pretty sure if I never made that game some people round here would still be making match-3s or something completely different :-) Another early clone was Faerie Solitaire, which I think may have also been made with BlitzMax. Match-3s don't do as well as those solitaire games and there's not much difference in art cost or dev time, so if starting from scratch, Solitaire is a better option. Having said that Spring Bonus just hit $50K revenue (to me) in 18 months, so not too bad for a 3 month game (built on my existing match-3 engine). HOG/Adventures are basically too expensive to make for most small devs due to massive art spend. Time Management can still do well but those games are pretty complex now (you need be a good game designer to figure the mechanics out). Other genres like Word or Action don't do very well on BFG so forget them. So why aren't I making more solitaire games? Well I'd have to code it from scratch as BFG own the source to Fairway, and it's easier to just make more match-3s. However, you lot are making me jealous and so I may have to re-enter the arena soon. Got some plans anyway. Good luck to you all with you next games. |
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| Who made Faerie Solitaire, I really enjoyed it! |
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| @SKN3 - Have you thought about funding your development activities by offering tuition services around the apps you are developing? This is a strategy I'm developing for my own projects. |
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| My inspiration for doing a solitaire game was actually Pirate Solitaire, not Fairway Solitaire. Also, not sure who wrote Faerie Solitaire now, but it was me who suggested he rename it to that from Fairy Solitaire, because he thought 'fairy' was too similar to 'fairway'. </useless fact> |
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| Question to the "BFG" guys here. I played now the solitaire games you guys created. All share the same game play. Pull one card down that is one higher or lower from the open card on the bottom. Are other forms of Solitaire not working for the BFG audience? Last edited 2012 |
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| My inspiration for doing a solitaire game was actually Pirate Solitaire, not Fairway Solitaire. Sure but Pirate Solitaire is a Fairway Solitaire clone.Subsoap games wrote Faerie Solitiare. Initially they denied it was a Fairway Solitaire clone which was quite funny. I don't mind cloning of course, look at all my match-3 games, but I think if you do it, you should just be open about it. MikeHart: It seems to be the most popular at the moment (since Dec 2007). There have been traditional solitaire games (Klondike) and also Majhong style (where you have to match two of the same value cards). I played a game called Mystery Solitaire years ago, which is Mahjong style, and liked it a lot. Tripeaks is pretty popular too. Fairway Solitaire is a variant of Golf Solitaire (that's the official term) which is very similar to Tripeaks anyway. It's just that Golf and Tripeaks have fixed layouts whereas all the solitaire games we've been making have varying layouts to keep things interesting (and special cards that do other stuff). Last edited 2012 |
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| Subsoap games wrote Faerie Solitiare. Initially they denied it was a Fairway Solitaire clone which was quite funny. I don't mind cloning of course, look at all my match-3 games, but I think if you do it, you should just be open about it. I didn't know that GA. I picked up a Steam key of Faerie Solitaire when they were giving them away by the hundreds. I don't usually play games of this sort, but it was a cool escape from programming when I didn't want to escape too far. |
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| Sure but Pirate Solitaire is a Fairway Solitaire clone That may well be the case, but then Fairway Solitaire was a clone of golf solitaire or one foundation (played with actual cards) so that's hardly a pioneer, either. Everything is a clone of something else. The core game existed long before John Cutter came up with the Windows version, in fact the origins of solitaire go back as far as the 18th century. All Cutter did was put an actual golf theme on it, so in truth it's no more an innovator than any other PC solitaire version of it. @mikehart have a look at Strike Solitaire on BFG, which was released last week. That uses a mahjong mechanic and doesn't seem to be getting as good reviews as those that play like golf solitaire, though some people do seem to like it. |
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| lol...Windows came with solitaire free back in the day, and I've been playing versions since dad showed me how to play it with real cards many years ago - not on computer...don't claim any originality GA or criticize others for not being open about copying a very old game. |
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| Thanks guys for the input. I will try to "clone" one too now. My wife forces me now. :-) |
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| @Steve Elliot The free solitaire in windows is Klondike, not the same as Golf Solitaire at all. I haven't claimed any originality, I even said that Fairway is a variant of Golf Solitaire in my post above to MikeHart. Your stirring is ineffectual. @GfK Common, you know all I'm saying is that if Fairway Solitaire did not exist, a whole slew of similar games would not exist either including Crime Solitaire in its current form. I'm not talking about the originality of FS, that's just deflection on your part. Traditional Golf Solitaire doesn't have wildcards, mulligans, irons, sand traps, water hazards, multiplier, special items that alter the gameplay, and more that Fairway Solitaire has. Those elements (and even the UI layout) have been copied and modified in other clones by developers who clearly did not just read about Golf Solitaire on wikipedia and say "ooh I'll make a game like that but with extra stuff" - they saw the success of FS and thought they'd like some of that too. I don't have a problem with that at all, it's the way the casual game industry works. Last edited 2012 |
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| It's just the way you go on about it, anybody would think you did it entirely by yourself, when in truth it wasn't even your own idea, or even the first version of Fairway Solitaire, AND it had outside funding. Most people here would have been able to achieve exactly the same in that level of support and financial backing. I just think it's really big-headed of you to claim that nobody else would have done a solitaire game if it wasn't for you. |
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| Guys, it is pointless. Personally I would claim to have invented the Castle Crusher /Angry birds genre :-) When I was a kid, I had little plastic knights and little functional catapults. So I crushed the enemie castle with slinging little marbles on them. Here you go! Before someone is serious about this, I don't really claim it. In one form or another, everything gets cloned/copied/took influence and exists since the dawn of time. I am positive that a lot of things that we play these days is just a variant of some form of a game which a poor guy played in the dusty roads of egypt, back when Jesus wasn't even known. |
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| Personally I would claim to have invented the Castle Crusher /Angry birds genre :-) When I was a kid, I had little plastic knights and little functional catapults. So I crushed the enemie castle with slinging little marbles on them. Oddly enough, John Cutter devised a game of that genre, too. It was called Defender of the Crown. Before someone is serious about this, I don't really claim it. Oh. ;) |
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| Most people here would have been able to achieve exactly the same in that level of support and financial backing. Sorry that's not true and you know it. You can call that big-headed but it remains a fact. You don't really have any idea what I put into that game and did not because you weren't there. Implying that I was some sort of easily replaceable part of the process is an insult; but hey, what's new GfK? Were you a meaningless part of the games you got paid to make in the past? I just think it's really big-headed of you to claim that nobody else would have done a solitaire game if it wasn't for you. Fine, you can say that about me if it makes you feel better about your life - it's a good job I never say publicly what I've thought of your antics over the years.I haven't claimed "nobody" else would have made a solitaire game if not for FS, I said "some" of the people who have actually made a specific type of solitaire game might not have done so, which is not the same as your exaggerated statement at all and you know it - do you do that kind of shit on purpose just to piss people off? Of course you *may* have still thought to make a solitaire game, I'm not denying that; but would it have been as similar to Fairway Solitaire in it's details/mechanics as Crime Solitaire is? Probably not. How you can keep arguing otherwise is beyond me or is this like a Sunday afternoon sport for you? |
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| Fine, you can say that about me if it makes you feel better about your life - it's a good job I never say publicly what I've thought of your antics over the years. My life is just fine. And as I've said before, I pretty much stopped caring what other people think of me a long time ago. The opinions of people who don't know me, don't count for anything anyway, and the fact that you just implied that you bitch about me behind my back says more about you than it does about me. do you do that kind of shit on purpose just to piss people off? What, dare to have an opinion that differs The Great Grey Alien's opinion? Shame on me. I shall bend myself over a table and flail my own arse repeatedly with a leather belt until it bleeds. Of course you *may* have still thought to make a solitaire game, I'm not denying that; but would it have been as similar to Fairway Solitaire in it's details/mechanics as Crime Solitaire is? Probably not. As I said before, CS was influenced by Pirate Solitaire - NOT Fairway Solitaire - I'm not sure why this is proving so difficult for you to understand. Whether therevills drew influence from FS is for him to say, but it didn't play a part in what I'm doing. If it did, I would have done it a lot sooner instead of waiting for nearly four years.Now, I'm not going to drag this thread into the gutter. If that's where you want to go with it, that's your call to make. But you really need to open your mind to the opinions of others and accept that you are not God Almighty (and that you're actually wrong sometimes). |
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| What, dare to have an opinion that differs The Great Grey Alien's opinion? Shame on me. You didn't voice an opinion, you posted a false statement of what I said. And for that, yes shame on you. You have plenty of opinions, that's fine, but don't twist people's words to suit your own agenda - it's low. I will not let you get away with that.GfK: I've watched you insult and bully people for years on several forums and now I'm calling you out for it. You sir are a troll. I'm surprised you haven't been banned from this place long ago. You've driven people away with your vitriol. Go and hide under your bridge and come out when you have got rid of the huge chip off your shoulder and have the decency to act like a respectable human. That is my opinion and perhaps you need to open your mind to it. |
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| As everyone should know by now, I've coded diddly for about 8 years now and what I did before then wasn't much more than the basics, so I'm not actually one to enter a pissing contest code wise, but credit where credits due, Fairway Solitair's does not land at your (Grey Aliens) feet. I do say that without GA's conversion of Fairway I and perhaps a lot of us would not know of this variant of Solitair, but I emphisise the word Conversion, sorry but the way you (grey) have worded some posts does give off the impression, implied or stated I'd have to re read, that it was your baby to begin with. I've held off commenting for some time (since the thread where you commented that your version was erased from history) as you were contracted to convert again convert not create a game for BFG a game I gather you did a mighty fine job on from what I gather, never played it its predecessor or subsequent remake. But as your job was in converting it, when you stated yours had dissapeared, well it was like someone who was paid to localise an anime got miffed when the anime was rebooted with new art and a direct to english script, yes you translated the first season of japanese tentacle highschool and did a damn fine and accurate job of it, but the licence holders decided to remake the show and not everything needed your old input. if that analogy makes sence. Honestly I mean no malice by this post, I admire what you and others have done over the years with lil old blitz, but the way FW gets banded about is a bit misleading, its not as if you are Anthony Flack wondering where his name is in the psp version of platypus. If you or anyone else had not brought FWS to our collective attention (with the conversion gig) perhaps the whole blitzsploitation genre might not have looked towards that genre, maybe someone might have played FWS in its flash form (iir it was originally flash) and thought "Hey I can do this" and showcased it around, I for one would not know it wasn't an already established game unless the other coder said otherwise. |
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| lol Gfk just tells it straight and has a track record that gains respect. Adding things to old games and talking like you've invented the wheel will always get peoples backs up. I personally think you've done well Jake - good on ya. But sometimes people need a reality check. |
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| I gotta say this was one of the most useful and interesting threads that I've read on the Blitz forums for a long time, and it's been genuinely helpful to hear the experience and insights of people familiar with BFG and working in the casual games arena. That was, up until people starting digging in their heels and trying to be right. I thought Grey did a good job on Fairway Solitaire regardless of whether parts of it had been made already, I'm sure he put his own stamp and polish on it and put a lot of effort into it. And it's clear to me that once that game came out there were other games to follow that really closely copied it, and you have to believe that people wouldn't clone a game if they didn't see it being popular and a genuinely good game, which FS is. Their cloning is a mark of respect and something of a compliment, really. Not saying he made something 100% original, who cares, but it's a good game in its own right and hat's off to him for accomplishing that. |
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| Yes, thanks for the valuable informations about publishing wih BigFishGames. Cleary an awesome topic on that. i was studying their top 100 last week and around 85 games of these are hidden objects games in one form or another. That clearly shows a trend. i think the popularity of this genre comes from the story part, which they all try to tell. What do you think? Last edited 2012 |
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| The interesting point about HO games is that although they dominate the top 100, they don't actually stay there for very long, with games like Ravenhearst being the rare exception. With most genres, breaking the top 100 is crucial for visibility, but I don't think that rule applies as much to HO games as people will actively seek them out anyway because the genre is so popular. I think they're popular in the same way as Beneath a Steel Sky, Monkey Island and the old Infocom adventures used to be. Immersive worlds, interactive stories. I think that's the key point that yields sales. |
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| Have you thought about funding your development activities by offering tuition services around the apps you are developing? This is a strategy I'm developing for my own projects. I'm not sure it would work too well as Objecty is for game devs and they generally tend to be quite self-sufficient folks whole like to figure things out! What kind of apps do you make? So now do I make a match 3.. or a solitaire game! HMM I spent many hours now playing match 3 and solitaire games. I don't personally understand why people moan about them so much, they are fun and addictive. More so then some of the other "fun and addictive" type games out there. So Match3 won't do as well but AVG £1500 - £2000 a month seems a manageable start (going by your figures Grey). Its obviously not an exact science like that, but its exact as it can get really for someone on the outside. Grey did you have any involvement with the fairway solitaire that is on BFG now? Knowing the market, is it advised to stick to painted/vector artwork big bright and colorful or are people just as welcoming to say pixel art or other popular styles? Last edited 2012 |
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| In my opinion, and this is really just an opinion not necessarily based on market research or anything, I think the hidden object games have such large popularity because of the highly female audience - hope I'm not being sexist here - but there is a very strong parallel between these story-driven games and fiction novels, especially romance novels (am I stereotyping?), and I can well imagine an easy transition/relationship that a lot of women would have with these kind of murder/mystery stories, romance stories, etc... the hidden object part is simplistic yet addictive, you get to take your time, it's entirely based on your own skill and you don't have to have `male` skills like high dexterity FPS/platforming/shootemup type of action abilities... it's gentler and just generally more feminine all round.. .. though I'm not totally well versed in this area, this is just my impression. HO games seem to be basically interactive visual novels, and the `adventure` element is always engrossing. But like Jake said they have such a tonne of fantastic artwork that it's hard for a lone indie to do it justice without dedicated artists on board. Last edited 2012 |
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| though I'm not totally well versed in this area, this is just my impression I reckon you're pretty much right.I think in the case of HO games with masses of artwork, it would be more cost-effective to temporarily hire in a dedicated artist, rather than put it out to freelance. The obvious drawback with this is that it would massively help if they were close by so you could keep an eye on proceedings but for me, even the nearest shop is over two miles away so I'm not really in such a good catchment area. This is not game dev central. Still, I'd like to do a HO/adventure one day. Or that sequel (but not a sequel, obviously) to Hardwar. Currently though I'm sticking with what pays the bills. |
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| Well I was speaking to my mum on the phone and describing to her what a casual game was. Before I had a chance to really get into describing it she said "well that is me, I'm a casual player". So I think its not being sexist, but these types of games are an easy way in for non "expert" players. It gives people a way to feel connected to the game playing society we have become! About 20 years ago it was totally different, when I was playing the amiga, nes and other home computer/consoles she never "got" playing the games. With the casual bejeweled type games she is totally hooked. Gfk, ah from your posts it sounded like you were making some kind of HO game. So what is the game style you are currently making then ? Last edited 2012 |
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| So what is the game style you are currently making then ? I'm almost afraid to say, but it's solitaire. I've added loads of humour and funny characters, and the voiceovers are really cool too. The main game character is a complete loon (and likes to eat cheese). Plus I did the suspenseful intro sequence which runs for about 40sec, and really builds tension to make you think it's going to be serious, before the whole thing goes wacky and falls apart.I could probably post screenshots but I think it's better to just hold out for release first, should be about two weeks subject to passing QA. I do have some cool stuff from development though - basically my 'idea' for the level select screen which is a god-awful doodle, from that I got a rough sketch from the artist which was about 3,000x better than my scrawl, then to the final artwork. So I'll likely be posting that at some point. So I think its not being sexist, but these types of games are an easy way in for non "expert" players. I guess that's why they're called 'casual' games. Casual gamers really don't like to lose (so the player should never die/lose lives, and timers are bad, as a rule) and games need to be... how to say... not exactly a 'no-brainer', but you should be able to play it without consequence while watching Coronation Street with your other eye, if that makes sense? Convoluted control systems are a definite no-no (LMB-only is best) - intuition is king. |
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| haha I like the sound of it! Gotta love a bit of slapstick humour! Wouldn't be British without it ;) I am intrigued, I'm sure I will be lurking on the forums looking out for the release in a few weeks time! The whole LMBthing, obviously the folks at apple were future-proofing their computers waybackwhen, knowing that in years to come people would be overclicking their LMB's playing casual games! |
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| Just heard that it's passed QA! \o/ |
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| congrats |
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| Congrats, and thanks for the further tips about what works in casual games. |
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| Congrats GfK/ |
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| Great stuff! :D |
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| W00t |
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| Jake, you've gone quiet.. maybe had enough of this thread? |
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| Lol, somebody enjoys these little squabbles a bit too much. |
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| lol no no I didn't mean it like that, Jake has a lot of good things to contribute. |
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| Yes, congrats Gfk for tghe new release. Looking forward to it. |
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| NOOOO that link has gone! oh well, found it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRvQA4oLcwo Last edited 2012 |
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| Well back on topic. Paul Thelen is right - casual is not dead, far from it. It's a much easier, safer and reliable way to make money than indie games or mobile games in my opinion. BFG is also a very good portal to work with. So are iWin and Real. Can't say the same for others unfortunately (in terms of either a) revenue or b) them replying to emails). If you'd have decent success with another, please let me know. BlitzMax is basically perfect for making casual games as long as they are 2D, although sometimes I wish I could easy do a few simple 3D effects or mesh type effects. Anyway, as long as you get all the basic stuff a commercial game needs in your game engine, then spend a bit of money on art and come up with a game in an established casual download genres (HOG/Adventure, Time Management, Solitaire, Match-3 etc.) then you can do pretty well. The other key thing is that games have a long shelf-life and even if your game's first year doesn't make you rich, continued income over many years can be pretty good. Grey did you have any involvement with the fairway solitaire that is on BFG now? No I didn't. I was working on a Facebook game at they time in Vancouver so they got another team to make it in Seattle although John Cutter was still involved. To answer you other question, I believe solitaire games can make more than match-3 as the market is less crowed and they stand a greater chance of getting in the top 10. |
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| Just a question. How "exclusive" is the partnership with BFG? Let's say I have made a game for iOS/Android, may I put it into alternative markets like Nook, Amazon by myself? |
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| It's not the 'partnership' per se that is exclusive, its the rights to distribute a specific game within that partnership, if you like. For example, you might agree to have it on BFG exclusive, and that'll run for 30 days, 60 days, or whatever. Longer exclusive period generally equates to better exposure. During the exclusive period, the only other place you can sell your game, is on your own website. After that you can sell it anywhere, with the caveat that BFG now publish to other sites too (i.e. iWin, Oberon) so a game that's on BFG may well get rejected by others if you submit it yourself, as they won't want it on there twice. |
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| I didn't know that BFG publishs your game on iWin/Oberon etc if you go exclusive with them (never had an exclusive). That sucks as you'd be getting 1/3rd of their 1/3rd. I thought they just put your game on affiliated sites like Playfirst etc. Are you sure about this? In fact it would seem to be against Paul's business philosophy as it would strengthen their competitors. I do know that in the past some people had trouble getting some portals to accept their game after an exclusive with BFG but that was down to the portals warring it out. Last edited 2012 |
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| Are you sure about this? Yep. |
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| Interesting video, but TERRIBLE SHIRT. Hey GfK hope you're well :) |
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| Wow that sucks. Perhaps it's possible to opt out of them publishing on those places if you sign an exclusive contract as I'd much prefer to do that myself especially as iWin makes just as much money or more than BFG... Last edited 2012 |
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| I'm glad the other portals were discussed, I wouldn't have thought about them putting it on other portals. This article is relevant to our discussion here too: http://www.techspot.com/news/51005-study-25-developers-grab-half-of-all-app-store-revenue.html |
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| Once you submit something to BFG, how long does it take until your game might go live on their website? And say you want to make a cross-platform game for mobile/web/mac/pc, etc... do you do all the leg-work of creating each version and submitting separately or does BFG have some hand in porting stuff? Then when you release those versions is it basically released under the BFG branding, e.g. as if BFG themselves submitted the game to the app stores?? |
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| Perhaps it's possible to opt out of them publishing on those places if you sign an exclusive contract as I'd much prefer to do that myself especially as iWin makes just as much money or more than BFG... It possibly is, but personally I wouldn't want the headache. I've had plenty of lousy experiences in the past so I just want to write my game, get it out there, and on to the next. No faffing about. If I have to take a small loss on that, then so be it. Once you submit something to BFG, how long does it take until your game might go live on their website? It depends on a number of factors, I guess. If you're unknown to a publisher, it's going to take longer. Your game will go into the evaluation queue and wait it's turn.If you've worked with them before and have contacts there, then you basically get to 'sneak your game in via the side door'. Your contact then will get to look at your game a bit quicker than simply taking a look at whatever's at the front of the eval queue. Even so with submission (if you're known to the publisher), contract terms, beta/bug fixing, meeting standards/guidelines eg splash screens, functionality, promotional artwork etc and all the rest of it, I'd say to expect a minimum of around eight to ten weeks. This is just my experience, others may vary. My current game, on it's release date, will oddly enough be nine weeks to the day since it was submitted. May seem a long time but I'd rather make sure everything's right, because getting a small detail wrong can have a catastrophic impact on sales. There now follows an anecdote. When I released Magicville in 2010, it was released having not been tested on a non-English OS. Unknown to anybody at the time, the C++ code I was using to set shared folder permissions, failed completely on any version of Windows that wasn't English. The upshot was that, understandably, I lost a colossal number of sales just because of that. I fixed the problem very quickly but the damage was done - all the thousands of people who had downloaded in the first few hours of release and couldn't get it to work, probably didn't bother to try again. So the moral is that it's better to take a bit of time and get it right, than rush through a release and the whole thing goes tits-up. Only get one shot at that first impression. |
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| Just my experience... although not a massive hit, my Mahjong game made a 5 figure sales too ^_^ (not in the first month - it's out over a year, but it's still selling - much lower now, but I still see some income from it). And I never got to BigFish - but my game is on iWin and GameHouse, which had very good sales. The game was also published on Oberon and Boonty - Oberon was a disaster - they sat on top of the game for over a year before actually releasing it... and Boonty? Never going to do business with them again.(Needless to say, I didn't receive a single payment from them - and my game was on top#10 on Boonty for over a month!) My point is... even if you don't get published by Big Fish, you still can earn yourself some money :) And on the topic itself... I plan to do a 'golf solitaire' too - It will have a small twist, and I have to first finish at least 3 other projects (one which is huge - a PvZ clone, which I'm still waiting the contract to be signed :P) - so it will take time for me to actually start - but I definitively want to do it, specially since I actually like this style of games :) (As I like Mahjong games, one of the reasons I did Mahjong Max) |
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| For which screen resolution are you developing when you are targeting BFG / IWIN / Gamehouse? The games I played on BFG seemed to run in fullscreen will some kind of Letterboxing. Last edited 2012 |
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| I'm using 1024x768 fullscreen. Whether it's stretched or not is left down to hardware/monitor settings to decide. In windowed mode, i use the same resolution. If it won't fit, I check the desktop height, and use the next lowest setting and calc the width to maintain 4:3 ratio. So for example, on a 1024x768 desktop, it will run in an 800x600 window. An 800x600 desktop will result in a 640x480 window. I don't go lower than 640x480 as stuff will be too hard to read if it's any smaller than that. Last edited 2012 |
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| Are you scaling your content or do you use different content for the different resolutions? |
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| I'm using blitzmax's native virtual resolution stuff. |
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| And make sure you make all your games with international versions in mind... I just got my royalty report for October (not getting paid for it till January - WTF?!), it included the international versions amount and it just made me another 5 figure amount :) |
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| I saw about the January thing, wondered if it was an error. |
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| I think it is an error, as just prior to the latest royalties report being sent out I was in a conversation with one of the people working in the accounts department about some tax thing, she stated October's royalties were due to be paid out by the 9th of December. |
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| That's pretty much what I thought - I'd already emailed to check (about an hour ago) but thanks for the info. |
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| Just got confirmation - it should have said December. |
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| No I didn't. I was working on a Facebook game at they time in Vancouver so they got another team to make it in Seattle although John Cutter was still involved. To answer you other question, I believe solitaire games can make more than match-3 as the market is less crowed and they stand a greater chance of getting in the top 10. Yeah sensible, but will the bliz crowd now flood with solitaire games ;)? Even so with submission (if you're known to the publisher), contract terms, beta/bug fixing, meeting standards/guidelines eg splash screens, functionality, promotional artwork etc and all the rest of it, I'd say to expect a minimum of around eight to ten weeks. This is just my experience, others may vary. Interesting, good t know that with planning time/budget. How long until they initially got back to you, is there dialogue or are you left wondering? Also what involvement do you have with creating videos, descriptions, banner artwork, etc? Is this something they produce using provided raw files? Or is this content you create yourself? And make sure you make all your games with international versions in mind... I just got my royalty report for October (not getting paid for it till January - WTF?!), it included the international versions amount and it just made me another 5 figure amount :) Very nice indeed! Is that 5 figures from one of your games or the two you have? What's the split between your two titles? |
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| Just got confirmation - it should have said December. Yep, me too: Yes, January is a typo. Thank you for catching that! Payments will be sent sometime next week. That typo was there because I usually send statements on the last day of the month, so I’m used to entering in the following month for payment dates. Very nice indeed! Is that 5 figures from one of your games or the two you have? What's the split between your two titles? Well I got the 5 figures for LoS... the rest of my games on there (Gunslinger Solitaire, Pirate Solitaire, The Bloobles) adds an extra 4 figure amount or two ;) |
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| If I may ask, how many full-time one-person man hours would it take to make all the code and art and sound (entire game solo) for a successful solitaire game like Fairway? |
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| If I may ask, how many full-time one-person man hours would it take to make all the code and art and sound (entire game solo) for a successful solitaire game like Fairway? Greatly depend on the artist of course -- a great artist may take a tenth of the time that a good artist would, to generate similar images. |
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| Yeah sensible, but will the bliz crowd now flood with solitaire games ;)? Remember, even with all the infos we got here, no one will automatically create a full featured game and publish it through BFG. It takes determination and will power and the ability to stick to it till it is done. Plus BFG need to liek it. On the table it looks like it is a piece of cake. But it takes a damn lot of work to finish a game like the ones are out already. I don't see that flood coming. 99% of game projects never will be published. |
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| So Mike, you're doing one? :) I often scratch my head about what would be cool and what would people like to buy. Initially I created Blotty Pots because I thought this is quite an original idea and people should like it. Well actually they like it - at least those who notice it. LOL. So for me the big surprise was, that my battleship game was quite a success. I have the impression that it's important to make something the gamers already know instead of doing something new. Any clones might do good you just have to do it right. |
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| It's probably true to say 99% of game projects wont even be finished. Working on a game for 6 months to a year without knowing if it will make enough money to live on can be a major factor in scraping a game idea as it is a huge time commitment and a lot of people just keep adding ideas, redoing things, scrapping whole parts of a game and eventually not getting it done. If you sit down, play some games in the genre you are making, note what makes them good, what makes them bad and cherry pick the best features, incorporate them into your design document and really think how the parts of your game and features will interact before comitting anything to code you have a much better chance of seeing your game through to completion. |
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| @Xaron: Yes, I am giving it a shot. The theme is settled and I had enough playing time of competing games. Started working on a design document together with my wife for the next 2 weeks. She brings great ideas to it and also pushes me good. And she will make sure that I won't stop. While I was writing me book last year I had some occations where I just wanted to throw the towel but she made sure that I finish it. Wifes can be such a motivating factor :-) After the design part is done, I plan about 1-2 months for the artwork. I am undecided if I go with 3D renders (Daz/Vue stuff) or vector art. Guess I will do a few tests first. When I have most of the artwork done, I will start coding. I have planed about a month for it. When I was creating the small games for my book, each took me about 2-5 days part time at night. So I think a month is a good plan. Then 2-3 weeks strong testing and after that I will approach a publisher. So bascially I plan to work on it for 3-4 months. Btw, how is Blotty Pots doing on BFG? |
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| Thanks Mike, will look forward to this. Yes, wifes can be indeed a motivation factor. LOL Regarding Blotty Pots I just published it there as Flash version and got a one time reward for this... |
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| I have also settled a theme and played countless hours of solitaire. My lasting question after playing is "it doesn't really get much harder??" But i guess that's the point. Did anyone else notice this? So another question to add to my already open questions, does anyone have any resources they would like to share? Eg good places for music, sound? Good links? I have had music composed for another game by someone I know http://www.jwmusic.org but I would be inretested if anyone has any links to stuff they use? |
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| Kevin McLeod is making good royality free music: http://incompetech.com/ |
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| @skn3: I used CS_TBL from these forums for music. He's very good. Maarten Van Strien. @skn3: The final levels on Fairway Solitaire are much harder, but the problem is, once you have learned the tricks there is still a large amount of luck to whether you beat a level quickly or it takes many tries. That can be frustrating for some people. If I have to take a small loss on that, then so be it. I hear you on the minimal hassle front but what I'm trying to say is it won't be a small loss. Far from it. Assuming your next card game does as well as therevills last one, you could be throwing away tens of thousands of $ by letting BFG publish on other portals for you.When I make a game I make a folder with all the various marketing assets that I know the portals want and a master document of the game information and descriptive text (short, med, long, paragraph etc). Then it's very easy to make a build for a different portal as I just chuck in a different splash screen and send the a link to my marketing info, or if I have to, fill out their forms with copy/pasted info. With some recent re-launches some of the other portals made me over $20K. That would have been $7K if BFG published on them. $13K extra for a small amount of hassle has got to be worth it in anyone's books right? That;s my $0.02 anyway. @ImaginaryHuman: I keep a detailed log of hours spent making every game so I can work out $/hour. Fairway took me over 1000 hours. I also made a lot of framework improvements during that time which I reused on Unwell Mel and future games. That also includes time spent localising it to 3 languages (F/G/S) For which screen resolution are you developing when you are targeting BFG / IWIN / Gamehouse? The games I played on BFG seemed to run in fullscreen will some kind of Letterboxing. My first few games were 800x600 but Spring Bonus was 1024x768 and I'll stick with that for a while. However, not all monitors will correctly add black bars to the side, so I have some code in there that can do that when players toggle Widescreen on the options screen (thanks therevills!) Also I scale down the resolution in full screen and windowed if it won't fit on the current display using the Virtual Resolution stuff in Blitz. You don't have to have any of that stuff to launch a game on BFG but I think it will help make more sales and is nicer for the player. Remember, even with all the infos we got here, no one will automatically create a full featured game and publish it through BFG. It takes determination and will power and the ability to stick to it till it is done. Plus BFG need to liek it. On the table it looks like it is a piece of cake. But it takes a damn lot of work to finish a game like the ones are out already. I don't see that flood coming. 99% of game projects never will be published. +1 to that. I sold my framework to a couple of hundred people but only a few launched commercial games with it, inc. therevills who have done a fantastic job with it.Good luck with your game Mike. Oh yeah therevills is right, it's totally worth localising your game so make sure it is built with that in mind from the start. Last edited 2012 |
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| Thanks guys for the wishes and all the support here. My last question before I give this topic a rest: Do you guys prefer now Monkey or BlitzMax to create your casual games with? |
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| Mike, I was going to ask if you planned to use Monkey or Max since you already have a framework for Monkey. I own Grey's framework for Max and Playniax for both Max and Monkey. I have been devoting my time to Monkey lately. I was thinking I might use Monkey and then if it isn't up to snuff on PC, use MonkeyMax to convert. |
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| @WhyOWhy: The chances are high that I use my own framework. Some things are still missing but I plan on adding them soon. Still 2 months till I hit the coding stage. |
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| Wow, Jake - so 6 months development time... but you didn't do any of the artwork right? As far as screen resolution goes... it's becoming much more commonplace now that 1280x720 or 1280x800 are the most popular resolutions. At least in terms of desktops seen from web browsers. It used to be the past few years that 1024x768 was the standard but now that's down to less than 15-20% of users. Yet mobile devices like iPad1/2/mini etc still work at 1024x768. So I think if you can, make your game able to work at both 1280x800/1280x720 and at 1024x768. There are a tonne more widescreen displays out there now than the old aspect ratio. |
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| Do you guys prefer now Monkey or BlitzMax to create your casual games with? I don't know of any Monkey games that have been released on BFG... also the GLFW target of course will only spit out OpenGL versions. And currently you can not switch between fullscreen and window mode, which is a must for BFG. Personally, I am going to keep on using BlitzMax for Mac and Windows games and for more indie based games I will use Monkey to release them on Android. Re: Development time My first solitaire game took 3 months to code and my other two around 6 months... but this is coding mostly after work and weekends, and sometimes I stopped for a few weeks at a time. Re: Resolutions Casual players are mostly the "older" generation and don't update their machines very often (many still use a PPC Mac!). Last edited 2012 |
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| You could try the bmax target for monkey, then you can develop in monkey which is a nicer language, but build for windows using BlitzMax, changing anything which needs changing for Windows in the outputted bmax code, such as adding fullscreen/windowed toggles, changing the load/save path that kind of thing, the best of both worlds! |
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| Lol.. You do know that I started the bmx target don't ya? :-) And that was my original idea too, I do prefer Monkey as a language but I don't know if its mature enough just yet. |
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| aye I saw it on your sig on the monkey forum, but it was a general idea for anyone trying to decide monkey or blitzmax (if they have both :P) |
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| Ah, gotcha :-) |
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| I do prefer Monkey as a language but I don't know if its mature enough just yet. I think if it's ever to surpass Blitzmax for Windows development then DirectX support is an absolute must. then you can develop in monkey which is a nicer language, but build for windows using BlitzMax, changing anything which needs changing for Windows in the outputted bmax code, such as adding fullscreen/windowed toggles, changing the load/save path that kind of thing, the best of both worlds! The massive negative there, is that you have to redo all of that if you need to fix any bugs in the Monkey code. For me that is an instant turn-off. |
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| then you can develop in monkey which is a nicer language, but build for windows using BlitzMax, changing anything which needs changing for Windows in the outputted bmax code, such as adding fullscreen/windowed toggles, changing the load/save path that kind of thing, the best of both worlds! The massive negative there, is that you have to redo all of that if you need to fix any bugs in the Monkey code. For me that is an instant turn-off. That is a definite annoyance with the way monkey creates native code, the fact its one big massive file, it would be much nicer if it split up the output to match the input, so if you have 10 files with a class each, it comes out that same way. With the new target system being worked on maybe someone with knowledge of the DirectX API will create a nice DirectX target that functions as well as BlitzMax does now. Last edited 2012 |
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| For me, monkey is a lovely language, I do indeed like the syntax of it, but, where it falls down is that (and I could be wrong since I havent visited it for a while), the premise of using monkey is to write once and build for all. But, while I was using it, I found some commands worked on some targets, some didnt, and by adding more targets, your segmenting even further right up until you just have a jumbled mess of targets that, if you want to deploy the same, say, game, to each target, you need to work on all the targets to get it working the same across the board. That, to me, is a bit counter productive, and like I posted elsewhere, people who have used Blitz have looked at Monkey, decided it isnt the be all and end all and have moved over to using software such as Marmalade:- http://www.madewithmarmalade.com/ Which to me, is a shame because that stems the thought that monkey will be a niche language for the rest of its days, more so then BlitzMax ever was! Dabz Last edited 2012 |
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| monkey is a loverly language, but has already been said its to fragmented. For me the move away from it lead me to Unity where I can actually code once deploy everywhere dont get me wrong I check on monkey from time to time but there is a lot of things being added which can only lead to even more confusion later. |
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| I think the days of making 'real money' just through sales (for small, indie or otherwise non-financed-backed companies that cannot produce franchised or 'AAA' games have drifted way off now. The real monetisation is in micropayment models and such, especially as this neatly coincides with the current trend in popularity with mobile platforms. |
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| >>>I think the days of making 'real money' just through sales (for small, indie or otherwise non-financed-backed companies that cannot produce franchised or 'AAA' games have drifted way off now. There's no other way of saying it. You're completely wrong. |
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| The real monetisation is in micropayment models and such, especially as this neatly coincides with the current trend in popularity with mobile platforms. Mobile platforms maybe popular, but trying to make money from all the thousands of apps out there; All ripping each other off and trying to be cheaper - or free (but with advertising) seems like a nightmare. Last edited 2012 |
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| Aye there is plenty of money to be made still, possibly more than ever as more and more people have access to a device that can play casual games, you just have to have a marketable game. |
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| With the new target system being worked on maybe someone with knowledge of the DirectX API will create a nice DirectX target that functions as well as BlitzMax does now. Rone created a D3D11 for miniB3D on monkey and the Win8 target is D3D. |
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| There's no other way of saying it. You're completely wrong. For once I completely agree 100% with GfK. Some guy at a conference I went to said the same thing during his talk and sitting next to me was the creator if Frozen Synapse, then later on I met Cliffski (Positech games) and Cas from Puppy Games - three great examples in one day to refute his point. Four if I throw myself into the mix (I'm doing OK but not rich, but I'd prefer that than to be making F2P games). Oh and the guy speaking after him made Dear Esther.Of course F2P games DO make a lot of money, I'm not disputing that, but there's plenty of life still in paid games for now... And may there long be so! Last edited 2012 |
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| Grey: What does F2P stand for? |
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| Free to play |
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| Free to Play = try before you buy with a built-in payment system, framed in a different way with possibly several stages of payment. Not too far from saying it's a try-before-you-buy subscription model. I agree free-to-play is far less a thing on desktop and even on mobile there are still a tonne of games making money up-front. I think actually more big-name AAA companies are going to break into mobile and sell more high-priced games up-front, with like $20-30 price tag, and that this will gradually produce a trend back toward pay-up-front games. ... or maybe some kind of hybrid like `pay as you go`/subscription. |
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| There's no other way of saying it. You're completely wrong. The VERY firsty two words I wrote was "I think" - there's no way that could EVER be wrong at all, since it is indeed what I think. There's plenty of ways to "say it", especially ways in which you provide any kind of evidence to back your objection. Seriously, mind what you assume. I never once suggested there was no money to be made from pay-up-front games, nor did I imply that such couldn't sustain a living or that successful games were not created on such a model in the past. Also I did not say that mobile platforms were an easy way to make money. What I said was that I THINK the REAL money (i.e. billions) is in micropayment models based on mobile platforms. Disagree all you like, but consider the following: Advertising is STILL the most effective income generator for web content. MOre and more gameing-capable 'gadgets' are adopting online capabilities as standard even necessary requirements, and therefore, it follows that downloaded and network-based games are becoming the norm especially with digital distribution methods being the MOST PROLIFIC FORM OF GAME ACQUISITION means that the online monetisation concepts are perfectly suited to this trend and that already consumers have accepted the marketing and follow the trend eagerly. The fact that this model is so successful, is obvious from the ways in which even the likes of big publishers have adopted it including micropayment monetisation even in desktop games to bolster the unit asales figures, yet despite the likes of "Call OIf Duty" and "Assassin's Creed", the simplistic 'pleasures' of the flood of identical Zynga 'ville' games has shown their 2012 revenue based on NET SALES ALONE far in excess of EA, Valve and Activision! Oh, and for comparison, Grey Alien : Dear Esther has sold only around 250 000 copies at up to $10 (gross) each |
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| Psst, if you havnt noticed this thread is for helping and not for arguing why your point of view is better then someone else's. these guys have been talking about how to make a realistic living off of a particular market of games. IE you want to make money? Then do XYZ and you have a a very high chance of success! The f2p model will eventually crash, it is a high risk genre and It is clearly a bubble. A good example is the recent punch quest! This thread has been really helpful to many people, me included, so maybe we should not turn it into a fantasy flamefest? If you are looking to get rich quick then make a high risk game and then take a massive gamble. If you are looking to work hard and build up your business overtime then you will find this thread useful. I know I have! Last edited 2012 Last edited 2012 |
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| Dear Esther has sold only around 250 000 copies at up to $10 (gross) each I'd be happy with that. Anyone else ;-) |
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| The VERY firsty two words I wrote was "I think" - there's no way that could EVER be wrong at all, since it is indeed what I think. So if you think the sky is bottle-green, that's not wrong? OK then, Mr Pernickety, I'll rephrase - what you think, is completely wrong.You seem to be of the illusion that Zynga is a "small, indie or otherwise non-financed-backed company", when in fact they are massive, and employ more than a thousand staff. This might be lower than the likes of EA and Activision but they are by no means small-time operators. What I said was that I THINK the REAL money (i.e. billions) is in micropayment models based on mobile platforms. Your definition of "real money" is disproportionate. You are saying somebody that only made $1million in the last financial year has not made "real money". Because that's only 0.1% of what you yourself defined as "real money", so by that logic, this one-year millionaire in my example is a colossal failure. Never mind, I'm sure he has a million things he can console himself with.Last edited 2012 |
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| I'd be happy with that. Anyone else ;-) Personally, if a game of mine turned over $2.5 million gross, I'd be billy-b*llocks doing cartwheels down the road and singing dirty rugby songs. |
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| You would be set for life, you'd have all the money you ever needed to make as much money as you ever wanted. Or you could sit on a beach in Thailand and live like a king doing nothing, forever. |
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| Here's the thing though, it's probably impossible to achieve that with casual games. You can live comfortably but won't "hit the big time". To do that you need to make an indie game, which is of course much more risky but has a greater chance of payoff. For example, Dave 'OddBall' Williams made Hack, Slash, Loot in BMax, got it on Steam and I'm pretty sure has made more money from that than any of us casual devs have from one of our games. But for every Dave there are a huge number of failures. |
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| Here's the thing though, it's probably impossible to achieve that with casual games I don't think it's impossible, but you would need to invest more capital than most casual developers even have to get a return like that, and you would want to be employing full-time staff rather than relying on freelancers.I would love to make a 'proper' indie game but at this moment in time I simply cannot justify the gamble. |
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| Psst, if you havnt noticed this thread is for helping and not for arguing why your point of view is better then someone else's. these guys have been talking about how to make a realistic living off of a particular market of games. IE you want to make money? Then do XYZ and you have a a very high chance of success! I agree skn3 and on that note someone asked for resources for their games, here are some: http://www.pixelprospector.com/indie-resources/ - a big list of resources http://2dgameartforprogrammers.blogspot.co.uk - great for you non arty types http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/ - good quality royalty free music http://wrathgames.com/blog/free-development-resources/music/ - even more royalty free music |
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| Guys, thanks for this nice discussion! :) So I'm a bit curious. There are sooo many solitaire games out there and at least double of that are match-3 games. How come people still buying "new" ones? I mean if I make a solitaire or match-3 game next (and of course it should be done well!) how or why would anyone buy it? |
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| If its good looking and has some nice new ideas and a theme they can relate to, casual game buyers will buy it, as match-3 games and solitaire arent a big time commitment ( to play not to make ) they can be buying a new game every week if they want more of the same. |
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| Didn't Naughty Alien develop a 3d adventure title using Leadwerks this year? I wonder how successful it has been, it looked very polished. |
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| I mean if I make a solitaire or match-3 game next (and of course it should be done well!) how or why would anyone buy it? The big point is to always make the player feel like they're achieving. As I mentioned before, players don't like to lose - and that's not to say you should make your game stupidly easy because that won't work either. It needs to offer some level of challenge, and for their efforts, they need to be regularly rewarded. If the player does happen to fail a level, then you really want to have a 'try again' button so that they can instantly replay the level without the hassle of going back to the level select screen etc.My current game has in-game pop-ups for various things congratulating the player etc. Also I have a trophy/achievement room and the player is notified when they win new trophies. Trophies they haven't won are only drawn in outline, so they can see how many trophies there are, but won't necessarily know what they're for until they get them, or at least, get one in that cluster of trophies that looks similar. In addition, they also get an additional 'trophy' for completing a level (a "level" might consist of 4 or 5 solitaire boards). This trophy then forms part of the level select screen, and players can click on that trophy to revisit and replay earlier levels, adding to the replay factor, as a player does not need to get perfect scores on every board in order to complete a whole level, but it's there as an added achievement if they want to. I think it really helps to keep the player curious about what might be coming next, rather than expecting them to play just for the purpose of going through the motions. Something I learned from Crime Solitaire - listen to what the players tell you. After release I really hang around the BFG forums to find out what people are saying. Obviously it's too late to act on most of what they say but you can take it on-board for future development. With Crime Solitaire you couldn't replay old levels so having that for my new game was a key point in development. </waffle> |
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| Good points there GfK especially the part about players always wanting to be rewarded, constant positive feedback is key, but you forgot to open your waffle :P Thats the thing with casual games, always listen to what the people who played your game thought of it, weither they bought it or not, and use that to improve your next game if you cant impliment it in your current game, things you never even thought important. One game I made a while ago had some mini games that you couldn't skip (when your making it your thinking who would want to skip this? it takes 2 minutes and gives you a million gold or whatever) but no, plenty of people wanted to skip it, some even stating 'no skip no buy', it might seem silly to you, but you aren't buying your own game. I added the skip button BTW, something small like that change can have a positive effect on your sales as its a quick 2 minute fix. Last edited 2012 |
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| Thanks! I just watched some stuff over there at BFG. Have you made the videos by yourself? I mean those ones below the game icon? |
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| things you never even thought important one game I made a while ago had some mini games that you couldn't skip (when your making it your thinking who would want to skip this? it takes 2 minutes and gives you a million gold or whatever) but no, plenty of people wanted to skip it, some even stating 'no skip no buy', it might seem silly to you, but you aren't buying your own game. You hit the nail on the head there. I made exactly that mistake with Magicville and loads of people said "no skip no buy". I spoke to BFG about it at the time and decided to add a Skip button via an update, even though I could not comprehend why anybody would want to buy a game then skip past half of it without even playing. All I know is that I lost a lot of sales because of it. Even after the update I STILL saw people going "no skip no buy" simply because of what others had said in the past, then other folks going "no, hang on - it HAS a skip button now", but by then, the potential customers had shuffled away to buy Cradle of Persia or whatever instead.It's all a learning process, and I'm still learning. |
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| Thanks! I just watched some stuff over there at BFG. Have you made the videos by yourself? I mean those ones below the game icon? Nah, BFG do all that stuff. |
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| Aye it really is a learning process, but every game you make you get better and have a better understanding of what people want and expect. You might be very lucky and have a hit on your hands the first game you release, but more likely it will be an iterative process, learning from the past games to make the future ones better, you have to just keep at it and don't give up. As to the BFG videos when your game is approved they ask you to send them some high-res assets from your game that they can then use to make videos and adverts with, they do all that for you. Last edited 2012 |
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| Great thanks! Do you guys have any experience with BFG and NON PC games, I mean the mobile segment? Are the games published under the BFG logo there as well? How much do you usually get there as the markets keep 30% alone? What about the price? I think that's a thing BFG decides? |
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| Sorry the only experience I have so far with BFG is PC and Mac games, I am just putting the finishing touches to an iPad port of one of my match-3 games tho and will approach BFG to see if they want to distribute it, as they already do so with the PC and Mac versions. I had not really thought about them publishing the iPad version until I saw the video GfK posted, I had intended to self-publish on the app store, but now I'm thinking it might be better, sales-wise if they publish it. |
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| I don't have any experience of that. From looking at iTunes, though, everything seems to be named as BigFishGames. So it's likely a case of you supply them with the game, and they deal with the app store side of things for you (rather than you putting the game there yourself, and them simply driving traffic to it). I'm going to stop right there, though, because I'm just assuming. [edit] I had intended to self-publish on the app store, but now I'm thinking it might be better, sales-wise if they publish it. It would definitely be better. However I believe they're quite selective about what they choose to release for iOS, but also the pace is increasing. So currently I'm not sure you'd even get the choice as it's their decision to make on whether or not they think it's viable. Never hurts to ask, though.Last edited 2012 |
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| Aye it's better to ask you lose nothing, and if they don't want to publish it at least you always have the option of self publishing. |
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| Wow, where have you have been these days CyberGoth? It only seems like yesterday when I was looking over your shoulder watching you play the Feebs. |
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| Haha well remembered, man that was a while ago! Well I've been here and there, slaving away on games mostly, working as a games tester for a while then went back to uni to study computer graphics, but in the last few years I've gotten back to roots, working for myself making games, beta testing monkey and all that fun stuff! I havent really posted here in a long long time, I don't recognise most of the names except yourself, GfK, Grey Alien and a few others. |
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| So who is going to make the first solitaire game which is solitaire + match3 combined? |
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| What a terrific idea! :D |
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| solitaire + match3 combined I noticed that WonderLand Mahjong (a sequel to WonderLand Solitaire) has a match3 mini game... http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/20429/wonderland-mahjong/index.html Also check out The Chronicles of Emerland Solitaire, with its hidden object parts: http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/19208/the-chronicles-of-emerland-solitaire/index.html I had "Add Hidden Object mini-game" down on my TODO list for LoS for ages, but decided against it as I thought people wouldnt want to play a HOG game within a Solitaire game. And I also like the mix this game does with match3 and tower defense: http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/20140/tower-of-elements/index.html Last edited 2012 |
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| I don't think mixing genres is ever a good idea. Match 3 players don't want solitaire, solitaire players don't want match 3. East is east, west is west n all that. |
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| I thought the same, but players do seem to like them to some degree. Keep the main core as your main game but add bits of other genres especially HOG if you can.... (and add a skip button ;)) |
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| Well who would've combined golf with solitaire? |
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| I thought the same, but players do seem to like them to some degree. Keep the main core as your main game but add bits of other genres especially HOG if you can.... (and add a skip button ;)) Aye always add a skip button, I wonder how much we could make with a micro transaction SKIP button.. hmm :P |
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| Well who would've combined golf with solitaire? I think you're confusing themes with genres. |
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| Well who would've combined golf with solitaire? Golf Solitaire predates computers, it is hardly something new. |
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| You seem to be of the illusion that...blahblahblah Zynga are independent. Read what I wrote again,look up the word "or" in a dictionary if you're still stuck. When dealing with subjective quantities, the logical and generally obvious consideration ould be to take the O-Level economics angle and consider in terms of slices of the potential industry pie. In UK alone, that pie is worth $70bn with much less than 20 significant competitors (i.e. those likely to get a worthwhile of that pie) clearly shows to the most intellectually-challenged that the 'real money' in the industry is in the billions. THESE SUMS ARE JUST NOT SUSTAINABLE IN SINGLE PURCHASES WITHOUT MARKETING, FRANCHISING AND EXTRA MERCHANDISING! Whatever, GFK - the facts still speak for themselves. The market is dominated now by the micro-product and will continue for the forseable. |
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| BFG publishes under their name on the appstore and you have to integrate their API which pimps their other games. You can't link to your own site or your own self-published games. |
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| Clarification on Golf Solitaire for those who need it: - Golf Solitaire ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_%28Patience%29 ) is a solitaire "mechanic" for want of a better word. It's not a new thing. It's a sub-genre of the whole solitaire genre. In fact the different solitaire game types/mechanics play quite differently. - John Cutter and Glen Debiasa, designers at BFG, said hey what if we ACTUALLY make the graphics look like Golf as well so it has Golf mechanics and Golf visuals + extra golf related things (Fairway Solitaire). This then became a sub-genre of solitaire computer games. Before that people may have made a plain golf-mechanics solitaire game but there weren't any with the extra features John designed or the Golf visual theme as far as I know. Now there are lots of solitaire games with golf mechanics and similar extra features to Fairway Solitaire such as a multiplier (with slight variations here and there - I listed all these features in a higher up post) but not with the golf visual theme as that would be too much like cloning/IP infringement and BFG would probably sue. BFG actually have a patent on the mechanics in Fairway Solitaire that have been copied/modified by other devs, but for now they seem to be letting other devs copy/modify without repercussion. You can google it. Last edited 2012 |
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| Here I saved you the effort. Last time I looked it was on another site and there was an attached diagram: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080300032 |
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| Hmm. How can someone have a patent on an video game? |
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| @_PJ_ this thread is about casual gaming. Go and start your own thread if you want to talk about making "billions". Oh, and stop being so bloody condescending and pretentious. It isn't an attractive trait. |
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| >>>BFG actually have a patent on the mechanics in Fairway Solitaire that have been copied/modified by other devs, but for now they seem to be letting other devs copy/modify without repercussion. You can google it. From what I've read on that, the patent really only covers the 'golf solitaire' game dressed up with a golf theme. So if anybody were to make, say, 'seven iron solitaire', lawyers would probably start writing letters. Otherwise I don't think there is a case to be answered (admittedly I didn't read it in detail - legal speak makes my eyes bleed). |
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| Hmm. How can someone have a patent on an video game? It really shows how worthless patents are. Somebody claims to invent something that already exists and tries to cash in on it. *cough* Apple *cough*Golf itself has existed for ages, as has solitaire. Golf Solitaire has been around all my life, and in the 50s, as a kid, when I would visit my grandparents I would play a golf solitaire card game that my grandfather had got back in the 40s and it was golf themed. Golf theme on the cards, the box, fold out mat with holes and markers and players, special bonus cards, regular golf scorecard, etc. I still play golf solitaire with regular cards and use extra jokers as the bonus cards. This is why I liked Fairway Solitaire so much, it really reminded me of one of my favorite games from when I was a kid. In the 40s-70s, golf dice, golf card and golf board games were very popular. |
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| With all due respect, Gfk, the topic is about "Making money with games. The topic had drifted somewhat from the initial discussion of Paul Thielen's seminar. I was simply adding my own point of view to whiuch you reacted quite rudely. I had no intention of entering ointo an argument but felt I needed to respond and explain in more detail. After which, you continued to simply base your retorts on assumption and misrepresentation rather than bearing on the facts of the matter. As for pretentious and condescending, I believe you are somewhat guilty since you claim that I should start a different thread simply because my comment in 'your' thread was of an opinion that differed from your own? I don't understand why you resort to expletives and personal attacks either, this is a forum thread, not a schoolyard or parliament. |
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| . Not worth it. Back on topic... Last edited 2012 |
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| @GaryV: Sounds like a cool card game! Perhaps John had also played or seen something like that. |
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| Is there any room for or demand for innovation in the match3 genre? like if you were to implement scrolling or elements of other genres, would it fall on its face? |
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| No, they do OK. There's one called Phantasmat at the moment that has elements of match three and hidden object. It got quite high up in the charts (top 10 I think). A straight match three won't really do anything these days, unless it's a Bejewelled spin-off, which seem to get away with it simply because it's a known brand. For me there was nothing spectacular about it but it's still well up the top 100. |
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| like if you were to implement scrolling 4 Elements has scrolling: http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/14329/4-elements-ii/index.html |
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| Ahhh, interesting, thanks for that! Giving me some ideas here. |
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| I was quite impressed playing the demo of 4Elements.. that I actually bought it, which is very unusual. Things sure have come a long way in casual games. So much graphics and particles and vertex animation. |
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| Yeah there was a bunch of match-3s where you have to make a path through the level, sometimes to guide a character to switches etc. Pretty cool. My bog standard one is no.2 on iWin today. Call of Atlantis is also very good. Match-3/HOG/Adventure with meta game/story and great effects. |
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| I was thinking it'd be easy to compete with a new match 3 game, but games like this have as much time/effort/graphical prowess as I would've seen in a cutting-edge game back in the 1990's made by a large team over the course of a year or two. Out of my league for now. But apparently there's still some audience for a simpler iteration. |
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| Yeah often those games are made by teams of 10+ Eastern Europeans/Ukrainians/Russians. Guess it most be cost-effective. |
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| So what is the strategy to compete with such titles? |
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| You can't. You just make a pretty good but lesser game that will still make some decent money. |
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| You can't. You can, but you need long arms and deep pockets (i.e. vast quantities of investment capital). Which most of us don't have. You just make a pretty good but lesser game that will still make some decent money. ....that. You can do bigger stuff later, when the smaller stuff brings in some pennies. |
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| If I may, I would like to jump into this thread. I like Gfk have been in Blitz since the beginning and I enjoyed writing lots of cool stuff. I have made about 12 games now and enjoyed quite a comfortable life. Unlike Gfk though I didn't want to go down the route of self publishing and all that stuff. I personally made all the games I wanted to make and ran out of ideas. Plus I knew that I wasn't really good enough to make any new ideas that would sell (and I don't really want to make match 3 puzzle games and all the other stuff that indy developers have to do to make games) We live in a recession and probably the toughest of times. I realised early on that I suck at making games and making games that people want to buy, I just wanted to make games that I enjoyed and that noone else liked. I now live in Tokyo and much prefer making games for other people. Being a cog in the chain is actually more fun that you might think. For one thing, if the game I am working on is amazing or shit, I still get paid. I have no stress because whether the game sells or not is not my problem. I have big respect for people like Grey Alien and Gfk and what they do to survive becoming independent. I admire their bravery, but I don't envy their inevitable stress that it must cause, of having to keep ahead of the game and making stuff that sells. I don't really have any useful info to add to this thread except for well done you guys for making money with games. If was something I was too afraid to try myself. Last edited 2012 |
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| I don't really have any useful info to add to this thread It's actually very useful info because it reinforces what I've said all along - to survive in the games industry - or rather, the casual games industry, you cannot make games for yourself.If you want to make games for yourself that cannot easily be pigeonholed into any particular casual genre, then you need to be indie. But that route bears it's own risk of the rest of the world not "getting" your game, in which case you've spent X months making said game, and nobody is parting with cash for it. The gloomy truth is that there are loads of indie games, but the ones you've heard of probably represent less than 1%. A LOT less. That's actually what's stopping me doing the same, and sticking with the casual market for now. I know how to make money this way and I just don't want to risk a bad investment and not get into that top 1% of indie games. |
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| you cannot make games for yourself. I found that... I have the fridge magnet in that respect! Dabz |
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| That's good for you then Dave. I like making games, but again I just want to do programming, and not research into what sells and do my own marketing (which I presume you do) I know we both worked at Idigicon at the same time but I was much happier when they told me what games to do make and I just made them. I like playing indie games such as Match 3, but I don't think I would want to make them. Another good thing about being a cog in the system in my opinion is that you do what you are good at and if you struggle there is always someone else to rely on / take over from you. I know when I wrote my own stuff in Blitz, I did everything. And if there was a problem, it was me to fix it also. A lot of stress in those days bizarrely. The only stress I have now is 100 hour weeks during crunch times and trying to decipher complex game documents in Japanese. :) Other than that it is nice to not have to think about designing games. |
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| Thanks ENAY. Yes it is stressful at times and yes I have had to compromise what type of game I'm making to make sure it sells so I can feed my family, but I still enjoy the whole thing (mostly). I know what it's like to work in a company and make what you are told, and yes there is a security in that, but ultimately I found it frustrating, so I personally prefer to be my own boss. But each to their own of course. I would like to make more "indie" games but I keep telling myself I'll only do that when I have made enough money from casual games to support me making indie games for a year of so, but it never seems to happen. Also, like GfK says, it's very hard to get your indie game noticed and to make sales. We only hear about the best ones or the ones that the press love, not about all the failures and I've met a lot of indies with sad stories to tell. Last edited 2012 |
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| I guess it all depends what you want out of life. I know for a fact I wanted to design games rather than program but after realising that game designer and game programmer are very different things. I actually prefer not having to design anything. I hate marketing, I hate researching stuff too. But more importantly I actually felt isolated and quite lonely just sitting on my own working all the time. Whether or not that is just because I worked from home or not. But I enjoy being in a team for some strange reason. Freedom can sometimes be a bit strange. Being your own boss is one thing, but security in an uncertain world is really important these days. I personally feel like I am in the perfect position. I get to make games, no stress of finding what games to make next. And I get to work in the games industry, (as opposed to English teaching in Japan which I really REALLY hated) My job isn't boring and right now, at least I have a job, right now people can't even find a job, let alone do one they enjoy. When I first started out in Blitz I really enjoyed not having to think about what to make but felt happy knowing that I could make anything I wanted. However real business pragmatics get in the way of that, all I know is, I got to make all the game remakes I always wanted to make. I got that out of my system and then I could concentrate on working properly. |
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| I got to make all the game remakes I always wanted to make That is indeed fabulous and what I desperately need to do. Next year!!! |
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| That is indeed fabulous and what I desperately need to do. Next year!!! And I got paid too. :) But that was over a decade ago. Times have changed sadly. Last edited 2012 |
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| And I got paid too. :) But that was over a decade ago. Times have changed sadly. It wasn't much though, was it. I mean, it was OK at the time but there's no way in hell I'd do it now. |
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| It wasn't much though, was it. I mean, it was OK at the time but there's no way in hell I'd do it now. Depends on how long you spend on that game and how much you were paid? But now, you wouldn't be able to get ANY money now for the stuff we used to make, the good old days have long gone sadly. |
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| Interesting continued discussion, thanks all. It's got me thinking lately and realizing that mostly I want to make games that I like and although I think about other people playing them or liking them I don't really want to compromise on them in order to appeal to a wider audience. It's sort of an artistic thing I guess. But like so many people are saying, most of the time you can't do what you want and get paid well. So now I'm starting to think about making the kind of games that other people might like that I might not necessarily like, and trying to figure out if there is enough enjoyment in that to continue with it. Like others I'd love to make enough money from some small projects to be able to `fund` something closer to what I want to do. But it's all a learning curve. |
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| I don't think there is only one way to get sales. See Oddball with his old school video game : Hack, Slash, Loot went on sale on the 23rd January, so just shy of 6 months, and it's made ~$130,000 in all. http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=98324 Maybe instead of creating a simple low detailed game alone, it is better to create a more complex more detailed game with a team, or as Gfk suggested, to outsource the graphics creation. I will never waste my time to build a game that i don't like. And i don't understand how you guys are doing it with the match3 games, but maybe you like these games and if so, good for you. I think there are still many subjects, ambiances, scenarios, gameplays to cover but only a few have the energy and the ability to keep working until the game is finished. Just browse the "indie games" in any store. Most of them have basic functionalities and low detailed graphics. Maybe the solution is to have another activity (a job or an company) to earn the cash and to build a video game one like during the free time. Last edited 2012 |
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| or as Gfk suggested, to outsource the graphics creation. Funnily enough, I've always said in the past that I don't believe in outsourcing something I can do by myself. I did all the artwork for Magicville and Crime Solitaire myself.With my new game, I was in the position that, thanks to Crime Solitaire, I could afford to outsource. And I got the work done a hell of a lot faster, and to a much higher standard than I could have done by myself. Obviously that freed me up to crack on with the programming and I've probably cut six months off the development time by investing a little cash. The important thing there is that the money I spent on artwork is far less than what it would have cost me for my time, to do it all alone. The upshot is that my new game is out this week, rather than being sometime around May/June next year. I will never waste my time to build a game that i don't like. And i don't understand how you guys are doing it with the match3 games I personally cannot stand Match three games, I find them tedious. Even moreso, having written one. But it's no secret that I'm in it for the money.Another point is that it will help if you change your way of thinking. Why do you enjoy programming? Some folks like to write a game, and then play it and get satisfaction from that (and that's fine). For me, I get a kick out of problem-solving. So to me, it doesn't much matter what sort of game I'm writing as it's the process that I enjoy, and not so much the overall result, because I still get a buzz from creating it in the first place. If you can start to think like that then you can write any game without continually resenting it. |
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| Funnily enough, I've always said in the past that I don't believe in outsourcing something I can do by myself. I thought the same and i have had several bad experiences with freelancers, partly because of my lack of clarity and partly because of their lack of skills or lack of commitment. But recently i have changed my approach when outsourcing and i have had good results for not so much money and now i think it is really usefull if you know how to do it properly. Another point is that it will help if you change your way of thinking. Why do you enjoy programming? Some folks like to write a game, and then play it and get satisfaction from that (and that's fine). For me, I get a kick out of problem-solving. So to me, it doesn't much matter what sort of game I'm writing as it's the process that I enjoy, and not so much the overall result, because I still get a buzz from creating it in the first place. If you can start to think like that then you can write any game without continually resenting it. Yes i think i understand what you say here, planing, designing, coding in itself can be interesting activities, but even if i see that some match3 games are selling well, i have not clue how to design a game like this because i don't want to play a game like this. Maybe i can simply try several match3 games and extract some concepts and game mechanics, but then if i have no inspiration to make such a game then how can it be good ? Another approach would be to create a match3 game on a subject and with an ambiance that i like and maybe add some game mechanics that i think can be fun but i don't know if i will be interested long enough to finish it. Anyway each his own tastes, and i respect you guys to manage to earn enough cash to live from this activity. Last edited 2012 |
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| Yes i think i understand what you say here, planing, designing, coding in itself can be interesting activities Well, yeah, but "rewarding" is really the word I was looking for.But do you know what really kicks you in the bollocks ('scuse French) with all of this? Having to issue DMCA takedown notices before your game is even released. I've sent about a dozen this morning so far. On the subject of piracy; it happens. It isn't nice, and it's certainly taken the wind out of my sails, even though I was fully expecting it. But I do try to keep things in perspective. First off, I won't waste too much time sending takedown notices. Because for every one I send, my games just get uploaded some place else, or a new blog appears in place of the one I just had taken down. Second, I'm not deluding myself for one second that if I prevent somebody from pirating my game, that they're just going to go and buy it properly instead - they aren't. The only reason I bother with the occasional DCMA notice, is because while I can't stop piracy happening, at least I can inconvenience the people who do it by throwing a load of dead links into the mix. This probably doesn't help an awful lot either, but it makes me feel better at least. |
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| As long as you make it so the first couple pages of Google search results don't turn up easy links, I'd consider that a win. |
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| I've sent about a dozen this morning so far. What, your new game... Chuffing 'ell, the *******s!!! Do these stem from Big Fish Games reviewers, if so, is anything done about it, because that's just a cack state of affairs if you ask me!!! Dabz |
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| You know what they say, a person who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway so its not a lost sale, I don't know how much truth there is in that statement but its the ethos a lot of developers go by. I know its annoying to see your game all over the place, more so if its not even officialy released yet pft. |
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| Do these stem from Big Fish Games reviewers, if so, is anything done about it, because that's just a cack state of affairs if you ask me!!! Nah, nothing funny going on. I raised the issue with Crime Solitaire as it happened then, too, and it was explained to me how it happens. And I'm going to leave that particular discussion at that! It is cack, but as John says (and as I already said), a pirate isn't going to go and buy my game just because they weren't able to pirate it. They'll just persevere til they find a working link, or get another game. Either way it isn't a loss of a sale, because there was never going to be a sale there anyway. |
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| Having to issue DMCA takedown notices before your game is even released. I've sent about a dozen this morning so far. Yes i know but this is the right thing to do if you want to keep the sales coming. (For infoproducts/books there is the same problem) It is crazy that the game is already available for free on some sites when it has not been officially sold ! WTF |
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| a person who pirates your game wasn't going to buy it anyway so its not a lost sale I think this is BS and i have seen the contrary in my experience as a buyer and as a seller. It is about ease of access, ease of installation and use, ease of payment. If a pirate does any of this step better than you, your sales will decrease, and if there is no pirate links, or only fake links, dead links, corrupted .zip/.rar, full versions with some parts not accessible, and a reminder to buy the full version on the official website, several pages seo that are authorized to sell the product on the top serps then the sales will increase. (if the product is good) This has been my experience with infoproducts/books and i think it is the same rules for any downloadable product. Last edited 2012 |
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| One thing worth mentioning is that I used to have GFK's old attitude: I'm not paying if I can do it myself. As I have gotten older and my time has gotten more valuable, I have no problem outsourcing now. Someone that is specialized can do it faster and cheaper. I understand if you are flat broke and/or just getting started, but I promise it is worthwhile to have someone else do it if you can afford it. GFK may be able to release a game twice as fast now and that is worth much more money in the long run. Especially if you consider that even though the sales slow down it is a stream of residual income and the more games you have out there the more your monthly income will increase. @GFK: What is your new game, did I miss it? I will pick it up from BFG. Love to support my fellow Blitzers! |
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| You didn't miss it. It's out tomorrow (i think). It'll be under 'tomorrow's game today' from 0800 GMT. Whatever that equates to where you are. |
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| I work at an online retailer doing much of the work on the website, making improvements, adding content, measuring traffic and sales and so on. Something that has become apparent to me over the past years is that while `people` would certainly seem to be humanly different, complex, emotional, moody, each having their own opinions and preferences and so on, when you look at the numbers `on average`, you really see an overall trend in how many people are willing to get to the point of placing an order. Statistically speaking, and from analyzing the numbers and conversion rates, it seems overall that you can almost think of an audience as this giant nebulous single entity which has a given threshold or percentage of willingness to order. Obviously certain factors make that threshold move such as prime shopping seasons (black friday, cyber monday, pre-christmas etc), but you can still end up with an average for how much willingness there is to purchase. So then that leads to the idea - what happens if I make a small change that improves the website/product/service - what happens is you may see that conversion rate increase a little bit. Now you might think that this `little bit` of improvement is unlikely to be measurable because it almost suggests that people are really not as unique and different as we usually think. It almost suggests that `as a whole`, people collectively have certain thresholds and overall the number of people who tip over their threshold and decide to spend can increase. At first it may be just a few extra people who go a little further than before. So then it makes you think, well what if I improve my product/service a little bit more, will I get a better overall conversion rate? And the answer is yes. Again it might be that the improvement leads to just a few more people going ahead and buying. It seems odd, and makes people seem ever-so predictable, but I see this happening again and again. So like when it comes to getting people to buy a game, let's say that as it stands your game gets a given conversion rate i.e. the ratio of the number of people who see it/download it versus how many actually pay for it. Whatever that rate is, it gives you an average threshold at which people are converting their attention into sales. I believe that gives good reason to say that some percentage of pirates or people seeking free copies of games can be `persuaded` to go ahead and pay for the game. Just as in an election for example, politicians do what they can to present their case and try to persuade more people to take their side. Obviously some people in the extreme are either extremely willing to buy or extremely willing to pirate/resist a purchase. But in the middle there definitely is a more gray area with fence-sitters who may just need a little extra nudge to tip them over into a sale, and in fact there can be a lot of people in that area who can be persuaded towards a sale if you put a lot more effort into doing so. It really comes down to how you go about that and whether it's successful - which is something that you need to be measuring and analyzing and getting real test data back from - the numbers don't lie. I think this is partly why there is now a big movement towards including analytics in games, which monitor and report back on user behavior, how long it takes for people to complete tasks, where they get held up, how many `convert` to buy an in-game add-on, what path people take through the game, who avoids what, etc... that's a tonne of data that can be used to give a realistic picture of where your game is getting in its own way. So then you can iterate based on that data and come up with a better product, which is exactly what millions of website folk do every day to increase their conversion rates. If your game isn't a fine-tuned e-commerce machine that's been optimized for sales and not designed well and keeps putting people off, it will show in the numbers even to a very subtle degree... so there is definitely a lot of scope there for improvement that IS under your control, because you CAN make a better product when you have good data to base your changes on, and that means you CAN get some of those `pirates` to turn into actual new sales, and so that means that YES you do lose some sales to pirates because some of those people WOULD pay for your game if you presented it in the right way. |
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| ImaginaryHuman>>I think you forgot a really important part to consider : If John Doe has seen a review of a game and is interested to try this game, maybe at first the demo, and if he likes it, he may buy it. So he opens his browser, goes to google.com/bing.com and types "GameName download" or "GameName demo" or "GameName setup" or "GameName full" or "GameName zip" or "GameName rar" and the top serps show pages where you can download the full game for free. Do you really think that improving the game will do anything to convert him into a customer ? I don't think so, he will just enjoy the free game. Having a good product is only one part of the equation, knowing how to present it, how to distribute it, and "controling the leak" (pirates links) are the others parts. Of course i don't think it is wise to loose time trying to delete torrents or links on private boards, but the top serps must be clean. Last edited 2012 |
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| That's fair enough and that is part of the equation, but not all of it. You then need to change your business model and put something in the full pirated game that provides an upgrade path or extra add-ons or advertisement or whatever to help redirect the flow toward some form of payment. What you're saying is you are really really sure that people will go to the search engines and be met with a search result that's higher/more appealing than the one for your own website (which partly suggests the SEO for your own website sucks), then you should acknowledge that this `behavior` is commonplace and adjust your business approach to accommodate it rather than dig in your heals with an out of date business model. There was a game which the author released `to pirate sites` for free including pirate hats or other pirate-related game elements, which the pirates found intriguing and caused some of them to buy copies of the game. That this approached worked (to some extent) makes me wonder why more people haven't picked up this approach for their games. Moral of the story - you can't change other people or make them stop behaving a certain way, but YOU can change how YOU respond to it. Last edited 2012 |
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| Actually I guess this has something to do with why companies are shifting to `free to play` models - because they then admit that anyone can access `the full game` but then they still make money from the in-game ads, or they integrate in-game payment systems that are so much a part of the game infrastructure that it's really hard for someone to remove them. |
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| Also, check out Big Fish Unlimited. They're 'streaming' games - games that run on a remote server. The player only sees and interacts with video output. Impossible to pirate, and any existing game can work with the technology without any additional faff on the developer's part. |
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| (which partly suggests the SEO for your own website sucks) No, it suggests there are many pages on the top serps (i think the 50 top results are important) and that the top serps must stay clean (without working links to download the full game). you can't change other people or make them stop behaving a certain way, but YOU can change how YOU respond to it. It is not possible to influence the persons who are experimented pirates but it is certainly possible to direct the persons who are not experimented pirates to the right path. That's fact i have seen my sales increase or decrease depending on the state of the serps for the keywords concerning my products (infoproducts/books) I have read some of your posts about piracy and i think you are completely reversing the problem. You want to find solutions to please these guys who do nothing constructive and use your game for free or even worse use your game to make money with ads on their website. I say that's not fair and i won't let that happen to my products. But do what you want if you want to work for free. Last edited 2012 Last edited 2012 |
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| Big Fish Unlimited is going to be great I think, only games over 6 months old on their library will be in it though, but who is to say they wont move over to that model as their main distribution style later. |
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| BFU looks interesting. If I understand correctly, it's essentially OnLive, yes? This might have a better chance of success as BFG is already a trusted name. |
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| This might have a better chance of success as BFG is already a trusted name. I trust the BFG too. http://the-gingerbread-house.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/BFG. jpg Last edited 2012 |
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| Not wanting to turn this into a piracy discussion but yeah my latest release, Holiday Bonus GOLD, was pirated as soon as it went live on iWin and a google search reveals a zillion torrents for it. I sent of a few DMCA takedowns too but I'd probably have to do it for hours to get rid of them all. I don't think someone looking for a pirate copy is a lost sale, but I do worry that people who are searching for the game and hoping to find my site might get distracted by the pirate links and never find my site (or valid portals), so sales could be lost that way. Plus, it's just damn RUDE that pirate links push legitimate sites where you can buy it down the listing. I wonder if the owners of these sites have jobs and how'd they'd like it if someone turned up at their work and said to their boss, "I'll do that guy's job for free" and the boss said OK. Sure you could call it market forces or whatever, but it's still horrible. Last edited 2012 |
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| http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/20614/dr-mal-practice-of-horror/index.html What's this then Dave? :P I've tried it I really like the style and the theme is funny, good luck with it, I'm sure it will do very well! |
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| Could be it. Only thing I'd say is some people were grossed out by Unwell Mel and didn't buy it. Lots of the casual demographic have had horrible hospital procedures or their close relatives have. However, hopefully that won't be a big issue for this game. Amusingly this game also has the same, or at least an extremely similar, font as Unwell Mel. Not inferring anything by that, I just noticed it straight away because I spent a lot of time staring at that font. Last edited 2012 |
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| Cool style. I have some credits on the BFG account, I will pick it up tonight. I have enjoyed the solitaire games since I played Fairway. My wife loves them. |
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| Grey Alien>> I wonder if the owners of these sites have jobs Yes i know some of their practices. The question i was asking to myself was why someone will bother to upload a heavy file (in octets) to a server and take the time to create a website if he has not benefit to do it and also risks some legal problems ? The answer is that some of them make money with ads or affiliate deals. So they make money using your product... (a kind of "piggy back" or "link bait") I sent of a few DMCA takedowns too but I'd probably have to do it for hours to get rid of them all You can probably outsource this task during a few months on elance.com or freelancer.com. Again i don't suggest that you waste your time trying to delete torrents or private boards (only frequented by the "all should be free" mentality) but the pages on the top serps must stay clean so that potential buyers are not distracted. Good luck and keep up man, i like to see blitzers succeed :) Last edited 2012 |
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| Well when I google for Holiday Bonus Gold the first page are all pretty legitimate sites, I don't see any major piracy stuff there. So long as you can position your site high in the rankings you can still get exposure. If you aren't succeeding in getting ranked highly enough then there's something wrong with your website and SEO approach. If people tying in `download Holiday Bonus Pirate` or whatever aren't bringing up your website then you need to make a nice landing page to capture that traffic, ie to be more relevant to the type of searches people are doing. Not that that will stop or remove any of the pirate sites but it can put you in a better position to get clicked on. |
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| Imaginary Human, why do you want to make games? Is it for A) Money B) Fun C) Fame |
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| It sounds like you've already decided what your response will be, so I'm not sure that's really a question? ;-) Partly for fun, partly for money. |
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| I saw this last night and picked it up, it has some nice ideas in there... It did remind me of Unwell Mel too. Good luck with it Dave :) All this talk has got me starting another game too... |
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| GfK's sig is now updated with it, so it must be his game. |
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| Yep, it is. http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=99549 Still full of enthusiasm for my new game, too - 10pm almost and still coding. Give it a few weeks....! :) Last edited 2012 |
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| The fact it had his name in the credits gave it away :P |
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| The fact it had his name in the credits gave it away :P Go on, Hercule Poirot. ;) |
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| All this talk has got me starting another game too... Same here, although I've been figuring on it for about a month now. I set sail come the new year. No sense in beginning during the Christmas rush around here, plus it gives me something to look forward to. |
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