Best way to do 3d in Max?
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/Best way to do 3d in Max?
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| I'm looking to do some 3d programming in MAX and would like your input on what to use. I tried to use minib3d but I can't get it to even run the examples that are included. I don't know If I have to compile stuff with mingw and if I do, what file and where do they go, ect.. So with that in mind, I want something that integrates easy with MAX. I have only looked at one other program and that is LEADWERKS and it looks very nice and simple to work with MAX. Comments please. I didn't want to spend $200 on something If there are options so that is why I'm asking here first. |
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| Xors3D is easy to use with max, there is also a discount at the moment. Xors 3D! Last edited 2011 |
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| Xors3D is easy to use with max, there is also a discount at the moment. Xors3D is Windows only, so forget it if you're planning to do cross platform stuff at a later date. |
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| Ya it depends on your targets If you are going windows only then I'd suggest sticking with Leadwerks (very active developer) If you are going Win/Mac/Linux then go miniB3D (Free) and it has other "ports" as well such as iminiB3D. There are other options I believe for cross platform but I'm not sure what level of maturity they are at |
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| Xors is really nice :) it have functions almost the same as blitz3d (name) + alot of extra stuff. |
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| It's generally easier to use a commercial product then a free one. Start at that. The authors had a reason to take the time and get all the hassle away from implementing it (see Blitz3D, Xors3D, Leadwerks). Next, don't worry if it supports only Windows - it's still 90% of the market share, so a lot of computers can still run your game. However, it'll probably be harder to advertise it to publishers (because they always want the broadest range possible, and that is achievable with cross-platforming). Sometimes the "cross-platform is better" propaganda might force you to miss out on a good windows-only engine that you'd be happy to be working with. Don't allow that to happen. To use MiniB3D yes you need MinGW installed, and yes it'll be a pain to put everything in the right place, but it's doable (it was a pain for me and I managed to do it - glad I did, miniB3D is very interesting). All .C based modules will need MinGW, so you might as well install it anyway. |
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| Don't mean this to sound offensive but if you can't get MiniB3D to install you should probably get more familiar with BMax before attempting to branch into 3D. Almost all modules install similarly to MiniB3D, and many if not most NEED to be compiled. And the ones that don't might need to be re-compiled in the future to handle some other changes... Check the beginner forums for instructions on installing modules, or ask for help in the module's forum if you can't get it working. Generally speaking it's as easy as dragging a folder into the Mods folder in your BMax directory. Getting minGW installed however will take the help of a tutorial (again check the forums, there's some stickys for this). Personally I can't recommend MiniB3D enough. It's what I started on and what I still prefer due to the cross platform factor. Kryzon is right, windows is still almost 90% of the market of home PC's however a vast swath of windows systems are used in work environments which will never know the pleasures of gaming. Don't discount the mac (or even linux these days) segments of the market as being to small to matter. However my real draw wish MiniB3D is it's spin off iMiniB3D. With proper planning (and the right skills) it becomes quite trivial to translate a MiniB3D project to iOS, and that's a BIG deal since iOS is so easy to monetize compared with PC platforms. Additionally I've been working on an Android port of MiniB3D which is coming along nicely. So with 1 engine you can hit the top 4-5 platforms, and it doesn't cost a dime to get started, you just need a few skills that you will need to pick up eventually anyway. All of this is not to disparage the commercial or other free alternatives, Everything has it's pluses and minuses and the biggest one is usually comfort level of the individual user. This is just my preference. Just my 2c. |
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| Don't forget abut GMan's irrlicht Mod. |
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| ima747 your don't offend me, but I'm not new to MAX. Been using it since it came out and Blitz Plus before that. I just have never needed to add anything to it before and know nothing of it. Honestly I don't even know what minGW is but I assume it's a C compiler but beyond that I don't know how it works with MAX. GFK I have never compiled any of my stuff for MAC cause I don't have one to test on. So to start with on 3D that is not important and I could always change later if I want to go that route. I guess I'll take the time to figure out more about MinGW on Vista and see if I can get MiniB3D to work. But I will look at Xors just to see what it does since 2 have referred it. About MiniB3D are there any good tutorials on it? |
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| Personally I can't recommend MiniB3D enough. It's what I started on and what I still prefer due to the cross platform factor. Kryzon is right, windows is still almost 90% of the market of home PC's however a vast swath of windows systems are used in work environments which will never know the pleasures of gaming. Don't discount the mac (or even linux these days) segments of the market as being to small to matter. However my real draw wish MiniB3D is it's spin off iMiniB3D. With proper planning (and the right skills) it becomes quite trivial to translate a MiniB3D project to iOS, and that's a BIG deal since iOS is so easy to monetize compared with PC platforms. Additionally I've been working on an Android port of MiniB3D which is coming along nicely. So with 1 engine you can hit the top 4-5 platforms, and it doesn't cost a dime to get started, you just need a few skills that you will need to pick up eventually anyway. Amen to that. miniB3D is awesome... I am trying to extend it myself, and can't say enough how well done it is. The work Simon did on the engine is outstanding to say the least. About miniB3D are there any good tutorials on it? Besides the programs posted on it's forum, you can pretty much get any Blitz3D program and compile it on miniB3D without changes. Also, check the code archives... lots of code there. You just must try to always use Superstrict and declare variables - this will avoid problems in the future. Not big deal: cameras are TCamera, textures are TTexture, entities are TEntity, lights are TLight and so on... And this is a very basic program: SuperStrict Import sidesign.minib3d Graphics3D 800,600 Local camera:TCamera=CreateCamera() Local cube:TMesh=CreateCube() Local light:TLight=CreateLight() AmbientLight 128,128,128 MoveEntity camera,0,0,-10 while not keyhit(KEY_ESCAPE) cls TurnEntity cube,0,1,1 RenderWorld UpdateWorld Flip wend ClearWorld end You should see a spinning cube on your screen ;) Last edited 2011 Last edited 2011 |
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| Well an hr later and I must be getting somewhere cause I can ctrl+d but then I get a new error. Compiling:blitz_app.c gcc: CreateProcess: No such file or directory Build Error: failed to compile C:/BlitzMax/mod/brl.mod/blitz.mod/blitz_app.c I've installed and reinstalled set var and paths as all the suggestions say to but I'm really stuck. This is crazy for a program as simple to use as MAX to be so difficult in this one area and so many people have had so much trouble with it. |
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| ah new error Compiling:blitz_app.c In file included from C:/BlitzMax/mod/brl.mod/blitz.mod/blitz.h:5:0, from C:/BlitzMax/mod/brl.mod/blitz.mod/blitz_app.c:2: c:/mingw/lib/gcc/mingw32/4.5.0/../../../../include/stdio.h:26:20: fatal error: stddef.h: No such file or directory compilation terminated. Build Error: failed to compile C:/BlitzMax/mod/brl.mod/blitz.mod/blitz_app.c |
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| well, I'm done in my 3d with BlitzMax. I can't get the examples in MiniB3D I don't know if it's minGW or what. So now I'm afraid to try another 3d commercial engine because I have all of the threads on here about getting minGW to work and I can't. I don't know if these other engines need minGW to work or not so I guess it's best to avoid spending money on something I'm not sure about. I have Blitz Plus and Max so maybe I will just buy Blitz3d and have the full set, lol. I hate to spend the time learning another language now that I am getting used to MAX........ |
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| Yeah, that's the pain of installing MinGW. Don't worry; redo the process with greater care. Make sure you caught up on the "official" ways of doing it: http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=72892 - by Mark Sibly http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=90964 - by Ziggy (I already posted this) Also, make sure to get skill in building individual modules by using the command line. The instructions for this are in BlitzMax home page (in your BMax IDE). When over there, select User Guide then scroll down the page to see "BMK". Click that to see the instructions. Typical usage sums up to: bmk makemods sidesign.minib3d |
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| You can download a demo of Xors3d, no cost. All the commands are there, there is just a time limit on programs running. No trouble to set up as well. Maybe come back tomorrow and try to get MiniB3D to run. |
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| Once you can get going with mods there is a whole world of good stuff available to you. It took me a while but once I got going I couldn't stop. |
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| I'm with Kryzon, give installing minGW another shot following an official guide (it's extra annoying with windows 7 if that's what you're running btw... gotta make sure you're instructions are matching the OS because MS LOVES to move things around...). Being able to build modules (and rebuild the official modules to include fixes etc. between full releases, is invaluable. It's annoying as can be to get it installed on windows but once it's set up right it works like you'd expect from max, just select the build modules option from the menu in the IDE and it builds the modules ta-da! And as josk mentioned, most of the pay options have free trials of some sort as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them require you to build something at some point. minGW is indeed a C compiler, which is needed to compile C/C++ source files used in many modules (you can write your own C and use it in your projects too if you wish...) to optimize performance, or for easier code maintainence between related projects etc. MiniB3D uses it specifically for optimized math routines. |
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| I'm going to try to install mingw again tomorrow, there is no way to uninstall the old version other then just erasing the directory right? There is no installer so nothing to undo other then erasing the 2 user vars and the path entry. So if I erase these things then and install again maybe then..... I need to find a good post that explains modules really well, any suggestions? |
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| Thanks Guys, I wasn't going to try again and reading your comments got me to try again. I didn't expect it to work but.....It did! I don't know what I did different I used the same guide by Ziggy. But yeah thanks, alot! I have minib3d working and have ran some of the examples works like a charm! Thanks again, CTP |
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| You have made me look at minib3d again now, i'd just started a new project in Xors3d as well. |
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| I need to find a good post that explains modules really well, any suggestions? http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=42290 - How to make and edit Modules http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=59283 - How to make a Module? http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=68114 - Documenting your Modules Glad miniB3D is working for you now. It's a great engine, but it does lack a few of Blitz3D features: for me the most important one by far is Morph-Target animations, also known as "hierarchical" animations - you only get skeletal; also, it uses Eulers instead of Quaternions, so ocasionally you get Gimbal Lock as a "bonus". Last edited 2011 |
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| Is there a way to get minib3d syntax highlighting for the MaxIDE? |
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| my suggestion is to make sure you try xors3d - at least try it. xors3d is being developed continuously, though very slowly. minib3d is a limited and a discontinued project. about multiplatform issue, i have this comment: i love to ignore monopolists' products and work with linux and opengl and open source software or free products, however, i cannot wait and wait until some people feel like doing me a favor. so when i find a software is priced reasonably and it solves some of my problems, i won't wait a "decade" and i buy that product. |
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| kiami what is the 30 minute trial timer in the free version. I can use the product for only 30 minutes, which isn't enough time for me? Or, programs I write with it only will run for 30 minutes, which I can deal with? If I use the trial version and like it, is it the same as the full version and if I buy it we everything still work? |
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| I'll dl it and try it. |
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| 30 minutes is for running your program. yes, download and try it. if you find bug, report it. if they say you need to buy the commercial version, then think and make decision. i don't say bad people won't put bug in their software to force you to buy their products, also i don't say xors3d guys are bad or good, just to raise this awareness that our world is not that simple, a lot goes on behind the scene. |
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| minib3d is a limited and a discontinued project Not true at all... and still, you get the source, so you can do anything with it, contrary to most of the payed 3d engines - that if you have a bug, or you need some feature you depend on others to fix/implement it, instead of having the option to do it yourself. if miniB3D isn't enough for you, I would recommend to try Unity. |
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| Is there a way to get minib3d syntax highlighting for the MaxIDE? Sure. It comes with it, if you are using the procedural interface (that is, the mapped functions located in Minib3d.mod\Inc\Functions.BMX - it's supposed to be similar to Blitz3D). If you want to use the object-oriented interface, make sure to add the following markup at the declaration of all the Types AND their Methods\Functions (you don't need to do on all three, but you'll only get highlighting to the parts you do): Rem bbdoc: Type whatever you want to appear as a description for the element below. Or leave it blank so you just get the highlighting. End RemIn actual code, this would be like... Rem bbdoc: End Rem Type TMesh Extends TEntity Rem bbdoc: End Rem Method Update() [...] Then, hit "Rebuild Documentation" in your BlitzMax IDE. If you've done things correctly, next time you open a code that has these documented types, methods and functions, you will get syntax highlighting. You can only make this BBDOC markup work in Module code files. This documentation system has much more to it, more markups etc. You can read more about it in this link I posted previously. |
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| if you go to minib3d site you will see that the project is discontinued and is limited. this is a false argument to say my statement is not correct. To see if i am correct do two things: 1 - see the date of mini3d then see what features are lacking in it, 2 - study logic, go to falsification area, see when a logical argument becomes false. unfortunately, i cannot do it for you, you need to go through the labor, pain and suffering of learning. |
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| re: kiami minib3d's site has never been accurate. Check the forum right here on the blitz community and you will see it's very much alive. Simon (the author of MiniB3D) is still quite active, though it being an open source project and therefore not paying, he doesn't have all the time in the world for regular updates. However the community has stepped up to offer patches between major point releases (see the Small Fix's version of MiniB3D in the forum) to help keep everything running smoothly. Sadly the extended version of MiniB3D from klepto (which adds shader support among other things) has been discontinued as he has been working on a total re-write and it may have been abandoned as I haven't heard anything on that in quite some time. Because a web page (of which there are atleast 3 which have varying degrees of official connection...) says something is dead doesn't make it so. In reality MiniB3D exists almost exclusively in the forum here as all attempts to create web sites for it have languished. In reality it's the web sites that are discontinued. Last edited 2011 |
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| Kryzon, I'm not sure I understand..... Do I have to open a file and then rebuild docs? I did a rebuild docs and I still have nothing highlighted. Do I have to type the stuff you showed for each command? |
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| if you go to minib3d site... The miniB3D site, is the forum right here. Anything else, is not official. Just see the ammount of posts with bugfixes and new features on miniB3D forum, and you'll see its not discontinued, nor limited. Do I have to open a file and then rebuild docs? That's a tough one. I also struggled to get the commands highlighted, and ended up rewriting minib3d.bmx and functions.bmx several times, until somehow it started highlighting stuff. Make sure on minib3d.bmx you have something like this right on top of the file: Rem bbdoc: about: End Rem Module sidesign.minib3d ModuleInfo "Version: 0.53" ModuleInfo "Main Author: Simon Harrison (some@email). Includes routines by various authors." ModuleInfo "License: You are free to use this code as you please" ModuleInfo "Please see readme.txt for more details" and then, on functions.bmx something like this, on every function you want highlighted (it should already have *something*, so no need to edit unless you want a better help file): Rem bbdoc: <a href="http://www.blitzbasic.com/b3ddocs/command.php?name=BrushBlend">Online Help</a> about:brush - brush handle<br> blend - <br> 1: alpha (default) <br> 2: multiply <br> 3: add EndRem This is what I did for BrushBlend command (the text was copied from Blitz3D help section): now not only it highlight the text, but if I hit F1 twice with cursor over it, it shows that text in the help section :) Last edited 2011 |
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| That link I posted previously explains all there is to know about documenting a module, so make sure you are following that. That whole thread is filled with interesting information, so make sure to read the rest and not only the first post. If you want highlighted commands you need to document a module. MiniB3D already has highlighted function names. These functions are located inside Sidesign.mod\MiniB3D.mod\Inc\Functions.BMX, in case you want to see them (and their documenting-code). If something as simple as "CreateCamera()" is not highlighting, perhaps you haven't updated your documentation by hitting Rebuild Documentation in your Max IDE menu Program -> Rebuild Documentation (it's the last option). Doesn't matter which code file you have opened, the IDE will close them all after asking to do so. After the documentation is rebuilt, you'll probably get your highlighted miniB3D functions. Last edited 2011 |
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| any ideas why it is not updating my docs? I have rebuilt the docs several times. I looked a the Functions.BMX and it has all the bbdoc commands in it. |
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| Well, is the module working itself? are you sure you are not using it as an "import file" by having "Import minib3d.bmx"? by using it like so you are not actually using it as a module: your code is just compiling it everytime you run the code. For the module to be working, you should be able to do "Import sidesign.minib3d" and the samples should still work. This would show that the module is indeed working and was recognized by BlitzMax, and there would be no reason for it to not have its documentation rebuilt\updated. |
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| Yeah, I use it like that. 1st line in programs is Import sidesign.minib3d When I update docs I don't see it in the final list but there are no errors either. Rebuilding documentation... Building: BlitzMax Help Building: Modules Building: Audio Building: BRL.Audio Building: TSound Building: TChannel Building: BRL.AudioSample Building: TAudioSample Building: TAudioSampleLoader Building: BRL.DirectSoundAudio Building: BRL.FreeAudioAudio Building: BRL.OGGLoader Building: BRL.OpenALAudio Building: BRL.WAVLoader Building: Pub.OpenAL Building: Miscellaneous Building: BRL.Bank Building: TBank Building: Pub.ZLib Building: Streams Building: BRL.BankStream Building: TBankStream Building: BRL.EndianStream Building: BRL.RamStream Building: BRL.SocketStream Building: BRL.Stream Building: TStreamException Building: TStreamReadException Building: TStreamWriteException Building: TIO Building: TStream Building: TStreamWrapper Building: TCStream Building: TStreamFactory Building: BRL.TextStream Building: BASIC Building: BRL.Blitz Building: BRL.Reflection Building: TMember Building: TField Building: TMethod Building: TTypeId Building: BRL.Retro Building: Graphics Building: BRL.BMPLoader Building: BRL.D3D7Max2D Building: BRL.GLGraphics Building: BRL.GLMax2D Building: BRL.Graphics Building: BRL.JPGLoader Building: BRL.Max2D Building: TImage Building: BRL.Pixmap Building: TPixmap Building: TPixmapLoader Building: BRL.PNGLoader Building: BRL.TGALoader Building: Pub.OpenGL Building: Events Building: BRL.Event Building: TEvent Building: BRL.EventQueue Building: BRL.Hook Building: BRL.Timer Building: System Building: BRL.FileSystem Building: BRL.MaxLua Building: TLuaObject Building: TLuaClass Building: BRL.StandardIO Building: BRL.System Building: BRL.Threads Building: TThread Building: TThreadData Building: TMutex Building: TSemaphore Building: TCondVar Building: Networking Building: BRL.GNet Building: BRL.Socket Building: User input Building: BRL.KeyCodes Building: BRL.PolledInput Building: Pub.FreeJoy Building: Data structures Building: BRL.LinkedList Building: TLink Building: TListEnum Building: TList Building: BRL.Map Building: Math Building: BRL.Math Building: BRL.Random Building: MaxGUI Drivers Building: MaxGUI.CocoaMaxGUI Building: MaxGUI.FLTKMaxGUI Building: MaxGUI.Win32MaxGUIEx Building: MaxGUI Building: MaxGUI.Drivers Building: MaxGUI.Localization Building: MaxGUI.MaxGUI Building: MaxGUI.ProxyGadgets Building: Other Building: Pub.Lua Building: Language Building: Advanced topics Building: Interfacing with C Building: Memory management Building: Pointers Building: Arrays Building: BASIC Compatibility Building: Collections Building: Comments Building: Conditional compiling Building: Constants Building: Data types Building: Debugging Building: Exceptions Building: Expressions Building: Functions Building: Identifiers Building: Literals Building: Modules Building: Objects Building: Program flow Building: Projects Building: Slices Building: Strings Building: User defined types Building: Variables Building: Licenses Building: bssc Building: ftl Building: glx Building: oggvorbis Building: sgi Building: zlibpng Building: Tutorials Building: BlitzMax overview Building: MaxGUI overview Building: User Guide Building: bmk Building: maxide Process complete |
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| I installed Xors trial as well and it's not in the list and no highlighting on it either? |
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| Then you're installing it wrong. :D No offense intended, just be suer to have this folder structure: [blitzmax folder]\mod\sidesign.mod\minib3d.mod and inside the minib3d.mod, a file called minib3d.bmx that has the header: Module sidesign.minib3d If that's not exactly like this, the module is not properly installed. |
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| ok I have that, [blitzmax folder]\mod\sidesign.mod\minib3d.mod but I also have this [blitzmax folder]\mod\minib3d\sidesign.mod\minib3d.mod so maybe I delete the 2nd folder then? both end up with the minib3d.bmx file. EDIT, So I deleted that folder and rebuild docs and still nothing minib3d is still working so I guess that folder was another version I downloaded at some point. Last edited 2011 |
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| Yes, delete the second folder. It is doing nothing :D Then, be sure that the minib3d.bmx file you have in the minib3d.mod folder has this sentence at its begining: Rem bbdoc: minib3d End Rem Module sidesign.minib3d 'ModuleInfo "Version: 0.53" 'ModuleInfo "Main Author: Simon Harrison (simonh@...). Includes routines by various authors." 'ModuleInfo "License: You are free to use this code as you please" 'ModuleInfo "Please see readme.txt for more details" Be sure that the sentence Module sidesign.minib3d is not commented. It was on latest release and it has to be uncommented. After checking this, save the file if needed, and rebuild documentation (and maybe restart the ide). It should work. |
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| \mod\minib3d\sidesign.mod\minib3d.mod Every folder inside the MOD folder should end with ".mod". This first "minib3d" folder does not belong there - delete it. The structure should be like Ziggy said: BlitzMax\mod\sidesign.mod\minib3d.mod\. |
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| Ziggy that line was commented out, I uncommented it and rebuilt and it is working now. Thanks alot for all the help guys. CTP |
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| closettoperfect, for xors3d help go to xors3d forums. it has forum for different aspects of the engine. i found blide to be the best ide for blitzmax. it has a free verson which you can download it in the ide forum. but if you pay for it you will help the project too. blide seems going to be like visual studio. it has intellisense. |
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