New BlitzMax IDE in the works.
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/New BlitzMax IDE in the works.
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| Hi all. I am working on an IDE for BlitzMax that I hope will one day be a professional tool that all BlitzMax programmers would want to use. I am looking for (and would appreciate) some comments, ideas and suggestions from those of you that are heavily entrenched in BlitzMax development. I currently have a working and somewhat useful version of my IDE, but so far it's very basic and far from having the features that I envision. I would also like to know if any of you are interested in eventually beta testing my app to aid in discovering bugs and to help inspire further development of features. I am currently working on the Mac version of the IDE but will eventually offer PC and Linux versions if the interest is strong. I'm eager to hear from you. I welcome any and all positive criticism! Thanks! Currently my IDE provides the following features: Standard editor features (undo/redo feature to come...) Project management Customize look and feel of editor Syntax highlighting Interfacing with BlitzMax compiler to build projects Module browser And more... |
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| sounds good, giz autocomplete |
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| Function Folding? (Could be accomplished through scintilla framework) |
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| auto modulebuilder (blide have this) , intellisense, "framework assistance", support lua script files. |
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| Awesome. I would be happy to be a tester as I do most of my blitz stuff on the mac. Drop me a line at .... (might take a while to get back to you. As long as it doesn't eat my project code I'll be happy to test! Some feature requests: - proper search/replace support + search/replace current selection + search/replace current file + search/replace all open files + history of search replace fields (drop down) + regular expression search replace option - set file target for building/running (probably already included in project management stuff).. eg so if you press run it will build the project instead of that file. - file cursor history, if you need go back/forward to where your cursor was (very useful if you need to navigate your file between sections of it quickly) - inline auto-complete for defined variables / types / functions / methods / constants. I like the xcode implementation where it will try and complete your typed code inline - inline command reference, would be good to have a help reference that displays as you type somewhere in the main editor screen. Eg if you are typing a function call it could display the params needed for that function. Would save a lot of time when having to reference to a help file all the time. - tab groups. possibly two layers of tabs (or custom control) one for a group (eg "project 1") then a second for the files within that project. - split view. Ability to split the view and have two edit panes editing the same code, but with independent scrollbars. |
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| Sounds promising. I've always liked the community editor to work with but there are some bits I'd really like - most of which have already been mentioned. The project manager to have a resource list rather than a list of just source code files so you can link graphic images and sound music files to the project and copy filenames into the code. Function folding has been mentioned but I'd like to see Type folding if that's possible. Large projects are full of type definitions which can make moving around editing a project a nightmare - at least for me. A list of all type definitions in the current source file so you can jump straight to them and an ability to fold a type so that this .... Type TEnemy Extends TGameObject Field Speed Function Spawn() Local temp:Int, temp2:Int For temp = 1 To 4 For temp2 = 1 To 10 Local Enemy:TEnemy = New TEnemy Enemy.X = 10 + temp2 * 70 Enemy.Y = 10 + temp * 60 EnemyList.AddLast(Enemy) Next Next End Function Function Update() For Local Enemy:TEnemy = EachIn EnemyList If Enemy.x < 30 Direction = 1 End If If Enemy.x > 800 Direction = 0 End If If Direction = 0 Enemy.x:- Speed Else Enemy.x:+ Speed End If SetColor 105 , 10, 200 DrawOval Enemy.x-32,Enemy.y-16,32,16 Next End Function End Type could become .... Type TEnemy Extends TGameObject (FOLDED) End Type and you could click the folded word as a hyper link to open it up in the editor again. Considering how much code can actually be built into a type then it would be very manageable source code with them folded. |
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| the ability to just build 1 file (debug only) and play a sound when it is done |
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| Also, being able to do just a quick & dirt single file "type some code and hit run" is a big deal -- some of the alternate IDE's are completely project oriented, which can be cumbersome when you're NOT working on big mutli-file projects. |
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| There is no sense in making an IDE for BlitzMax if the IDE won't actually work with BlitzMax. BlitzMax is multi-Platform. Your IDE needs to be multi-platform. This is the single thing that has made community-made IDEs all but useless for BlitzMax. ;) |
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| Just make sure to open-source it before you kill the project. Also, don't write it in BlitzMax. That's like a death sentence for anything that isn't clunky as hell. |
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| Just an exotic feature: compare sources. Highlight\list all the different lines that one source file has against another. |
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| I am currently working on the Mac version of the IDE but will eventually offer PC and Linux versions if the interest is strong. 1. Write it in BlitzMax. 2. Add a GUI designer (with a code generator) to your IDE, either for MaxGUI or wxMax. 3. It should be able to handle projects with svn integration. 4. Let it have a real help system and something like IntelliSense. 5. You simply cannot write such a thing as a one man party, so I second what Nilium said: Open Source it before you lose interest and kill it. Instead of starting yet another IDE-from-scratch project, maybe it would make more sense to build this thing on top of eclipse or Netbeans or even MonoDevelop... Just a thought. |
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| Instead of starting yet another IDE-from-scratch project, maybe it would make more sense to build this thing on top of eclipse or Netbeans or even MonoDevelop... Just a thought. Heavens no.Lightweight should be the greatest of features in an IDE, and I am quite satisfied with GEdit already (no help, compile buttons, intellisense, folding, etc.). EDIT: 2. Add a GUI designer (with a code generator) to your IDE, either for MaxGUI or wxMax. Not necessary. There are already tools for both libraries. 3. It should be able to handle projects with svn integration. Unless you mean extended features for working with VCS (which I do not think you mean), this should be completely ignored, as there's nothing special you have to do to work with files controlled by VCS. 5. You simply cannot write such a thing as a one man party, so I second what Nilium said: Open Source it before you lose interest and kill it. +1 - file cursor history, if you need go back/forward to where your cursor was (very useful if you need to navigate your file between sections of it quickly) Seconded. |
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| Would love cross compile support at least on mac (like the Community Edition IDE using Brucy's BMK, this is the biggest reason I use CE despite having a bunch of problems with it). As was mentioned above it would be really nice if it could be cross platform since bmax is. Good state memory. e.g. if I set something as the build target it should remember each time I launch the IDE (base IDE does this but CE doesn't). If I have expanded some code or help trees it would be really nice if it remembered that when I switch between files (CE resets the code/comment trees when you flip between files). Perhaps some way to mix a code tree with a comment tree. i.e. on my current project I have tons of custom events which I have all flagged with 'MARK: comments so I can jump back to them easily, but since that only shows up in the comment tree in CE, I basically have ended up with marks next to most of the things I'm working on so I don't have to change trees to change place, and don't have to re-expand everything every time I change files, just one thing. Although a GUI designer is not strictly necessary, it would be very nice if one could be made that was tightly integrated with the IDE. Would give it more of a tight feel like interface builder and XCode on mac where IB can see the changes you make to your headers and types and changes it's options to match... Course I have tons of nightmares with IB, but they're nothing that a better base design couldn't fix :0) Good luck on the project, can't wait to hear more! |
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| Yeah, +1 for the GUI editor feature. Make it a Visual Blitz Max. |
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| gui editor could delay release by 2 years he he e h e |
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| If he's doing everything by himself in his spare time, probably more than that. |
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| <edited out, was a double post> |
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| Hi all. Me again. Thanks for the feedback folks. I appreciate it. Please keep them coming if something hasn't been said yet. Some of what was mentioned was already in mind and are in the works. The other ideas are pretty neat and I will consider implementing them. Zeke: What do you mean by "framework assistance", and can you give me some ideas about what you'd use script files for with a Max IDE? skn3[ac]: I might take you up on your offer as a tester. I can't promise that it won't eat up your project so I suggest you work with a copy and make lots of backups when working with a beta! :) Xerra: Having a resource list is something that I was going to work on very soon, probably this coming week. I think that would be a nice feature. I was thinking of also showing a preview of the image or a play button for audio when the file was selected in the project tree, and also maybe an edit button which would launch your favorite graphics/audio software to edit the file. Type folding should not be any more difficult than function folding. GaryV: My IDE will work with BlitzMax, it already does now (Mac only at this time) but like I said, I can create PC and Linux versions (fairly easily) if there is enough interest. On this note, what percentage of BlitzMax users do you think are working on each of those platforms? Kryzon: A file compare utility would be a pretty nice feature, but this probably won't be considered for a while... I think for the time being, I can probably include an option in my app to allow you to specify an external compare tool to launch. I'm sure there are plenty of good tools out there, one of which is ExamDiff Pro for the PC which I really like, and on the Mac I've only ever used FileMerge which is cool. Thanks for the idea though! ima747: A comment tree is a great idea! I remember back in the Amiga days, I think it was either AMOS Basic or Amiga BlitzBasic where you could specify a label using the syntax .labelname which would appear as a clickable link in a list. I can work this into Max's remarks, maybe something like: ':LabelName that would be interpreted by my IDE as a jump-to point. What do you think? At this point, I don't intend to release my project as an open source project, and I am working on it almost full-time. I've come pretty far already, I think. Although the possibility of losing interest on any project may occur, I certain don't intend to do that, especially if there is lots of interest out there in having a nice full-featured professional IDE for Max. I think Max certainly deserves it. I am a one man show at this time and that there is much work to do, but so far I don't feel that it's so overwhelming that I'd quit. I don't know if any of you heard of the Protean IDE for the PC (for Blitz3D I think) but it was fairly complete and I was under the impression that it was a one man project. I believe the source code was released for it when it was dropped. I am not programming my IDE in BlitzMax. I don't feel that it's an appropriate language to build a complex IDE with. |
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| Oops! Sorry for the double post there. Don't know how that happened. |
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| Let's have a look at what you've got so far then, buddy :) |
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| My IDE will work with BlitzMax, it already does now (Mac only at this time BlitzMax is multi-platform product, if something only works with the Mac version, then it does not fully support BlitzMax. I am not sure how you could claim it does work with BlitzMax if BlitzMax users would not be able to actually use your product. Please, learn the lessons from the BM IDEs that have failed so your product will not suffer the same fate ;)Best of luck though. |
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| Xerra: Soon, my friend, soon! I'll be putting up my website soon to provide news & updates. GaryV: Yes, it does not FULLY support BlitzMax, but I cannot say it doesn't support BlitzMax at all either. But I'm pretty sure you know what I mean. Don't worry, if a pack of PC/Linux Max users come a knockin', I will provide. |
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| PrismaticRealms, something to consider would be working on CollIDE along with wotzka, as a developer. For things like IDEs and non-data-heavy projects (like user interfaces and IDEs) Java is excellent (which is why we have Eclipse!). |
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| (like user interfaces and IDEs) Java is excellent Surely you must be joking. |
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| Java is excellent (which is why we have Eclipse!) Eclipse is atrocious. Even if Java was excellent, I do not see why you would have Eclipse just because of that fact. Many people do silly things in silly languages. |
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| We use JStamps at work. Java doesn't even work properly on processors that were made just for Java. |
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| I am still using Project Studio 2007, it'd be great if somebody could pick up where it left off. |
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| You must do a Mac version ;D |
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| I would like something like xcode for blitz... |
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| Since BlIDE is Windows/Linux only, a well supported high level BlitzMax IDE for the Mac is very needed. Good Luck with this project! |
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| I would like something like xcode for blitz... This would be good. I quite like Xcode. |
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| @Plash: There's nothing wrong with Eclipse. It's a very nice IDE |
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| There's nothing wrong with Eclipse. It's a very nice IDE Clearly that is not my opinion. |
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| It's a very nice IDE You lie. |
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| Eclipse has some very nice features, one of witch is the local history. Amazingly handy. You essentially have backup each time you save, You can go back and compare your current version with previous versions of your code file, cut'n paste from old to new. It's like SVN on speed. It would be very nice to see that feature in other editors. |
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| @Plash: Clearly you are wrong. ;) I understand that IDE preferences are a personal thing. Some people like the bells and whistles approach of Eclipse and Visual Studio, others prefer to use Vim (nobody still uses plain Vi any more do they?) or Emacs, or even Notepad (mentalists mainly, we shall speak of them no further). 95% of my coding at work is done using Vim on Linux, the other 5% is done in Eclipse. At home I use Eclipse (for Perl, Java and PHP), Visual Studio (for C++ and C#) and BLide (for BlitzMax obviously), and these tools make me much more productive. My spare time is very limited due to wife/kids/chores, etc. so anything that lets me fit more coding into less time is fantastic, and those IDEs help me to do that. |
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| Added split view editing to my work in progress IDE, as suggested by skn3[ac]. |
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| Maybe Mac users are interested in this: http://www.blitzforum.de/showcase/381/ However Linux is still lacking a real BlitzMax IDE although it's nice to code with gedit <3 |
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| Hi all. I'm still here! Workin' hard on my IDE. In the past few weeks I've added the following features: -Undo/Redo Support -Full featured Find/Replace as per skn3[ac]'s message, with a few more bells & whistles too -File Cursor/Browse history -Project manager now supports references to resources -Ability to view image resources (with zoom feature) and play sound resources within the editor -Drag/Drop resource from project into editor inserts full path -Ability to launch a user-selectable external editor for resources from within IDE -Drag/Drop text clippings and files into the editor from OS -Each build target can have it's own build settings that override the default build settings (which are also customizable) -Ability to create a "quick" project to get down to programming without bothering with project setup. -Ability to play a sound when build completes (just for you slenkar!) As you can see I've been pretty busy. No language-specific features yet, but they are coming. A beta will be released soon to select testers before working on those features though.. There are just a few smaller issues that I need to clean up first before releasing the beta. Patience! :) skn3[ac]: Are you still in for beta testing? Any other BlitzMax users interested in testing? (Only looking for Mac users at this time) |
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| thanks for the sound :L) |
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| I would be interested in beta testing it if you are doing a PPC build, I have an Ibook G4. |
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| Jesse, I believe that can be arranged. I'll keep in touch. |
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| smart intellisense, search, and "go to definition" for functions/method calls are critical for me. I can't be arsed with the rest (portability) of the fancy features some IDE's push out. I do like the image/sound pre-view in editor and some other features you talk about above though. |
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| If you're still looking for testers, I'd love to help out. |
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| I'll be glad to help out once you're looking for PC users. |
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| so is your ide based off of the original? Since we get the source to the original w/ maxgui can you modify the original and release that? sorry it sounds like a noob question but ive never thought that people could make their own ide |
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| Xerra: Thanks! I'll let you know when I'm ready for the PC version. Would you say there are more PC Max users than Mac? Nate the Great: Don't worry about the question. I don't mind. No, my IDE has no common source code with the original one. I built it from the ground up. The only semblance my IDE has with the original is the default color scheme. :) It is possible to take the original's source code, modify it and release it, sure. But that isn't what I'm doing. |
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| i would guess there are mostly PC users 1/4 or less mac users and a couple of linux users |
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| Thanks, Slenkar. Your guess is as good as any, I suppose. Anyone have a clue as to how many total BlitzMax users worldwide? |
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| For those of you interested in this project (and other future projects), PrismaticRealms has a Twitter account that you can follow. Web site will be coming in a couple of weeks. Thanks. @Xerra, @Pengwin, @Jesse, @skn3[ac]: Are all of you actively/frequently programming in BlitzMax these days? |
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| I'm not interested in testing - mainly because I don't think I'm very good at providing useful information from testing - but if and when you get it to a state where you can show screenshots of the IDE, I'd be interested to see what it looks like. I'll wait to actually try it when I wouldn't be obligated to deliver good bug reports and such. >_> |
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| Hi Nelson, I am a regular coder, although I don't have much released. All my game development is done with BlitzMax and I would be happy to provide feedback for you. |
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| @Xerra, @Pengwin, @Jesse, @skn3[ac]: Are all of you actively/frequently programming in BlitzMax these days? I am. |
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| Hi all. Many thanks for the replies, I appreciate it. First things first. I finally have a simple web page up and running! I will be posting updates on my IDE project there from now on. Click the link below to visit and don't forget to bookmark it! :) And secondly, please notice that I've modified my nickname on here from PrismaticRealms to AarbronBeast. @Nillium, that's fine. I will be posting screenshots (and video) of the IDE in action on my website real soon. Please visit every once in a while as I intend to update it with content in the next few days. @Pengwin, @Jesse, great! Stay tuned! |
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| Love the site Aarbron, can't wait to see the IDE. |
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| Hi Nelson, I'm running Snow Leopard (on a Mac of course) and would love to test. I've been looking for a better Mac BMax IDE for quite some time now. Nice site. :) |
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| @Chromefly, then you're in luck! I have just posted my first beta version of Blitzin on my website! Try it out and I'd love to hear your feedback, good and bad. Thanks! |
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| Will it have intellisense? If not, why not? I currently use BLIde.... but I recently got a Mac so I'm a bit stuck for an IDE that has 'advanced' features. |
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| I just went to the download page and tried to install it. Problem is, the laptop is really old, it has OSX 10.4.11 so it doesn't run in my system. I know! oh well, I think I'll take it out to the pasture... |
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| @GfK, Yes! I plan on eventually implementing an intellisense feature in Blitzin. You can follow the project on my website. @Jesse, what happened when you tried to install it? Were you able to get through the install process at least? |
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| @Jesse, what happened when you tried to install it? Were you able to get through the install process at least? No. As soon as I tried to install it, It stopped and stated that it required minimal OSX 10.5. |
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| @Jesse, I am curious to know if Blitzin will run on Tiger. I have just replaced the PPC install file on my website with one that will run on Tiger, so it should at least install for you now. Let me know how it goes. Thanks! |
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| Hm, good work so far, but what is it with the keyword text files in the app-bundle? Why not just parsing the commands.txt into the docs folder of the blitzmax installation? Something, which is a real turn off for me is the UI of Blitzin. It looks like you've started to read the Apple User Interface Guideline and missed some points. ;) And before I forget a point: Please let the user decide where to install the application instead of saving it directly into the applications folder. cheers |
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| I for one am looking for a good 3rd party Linux IDE (Someone earlier mentioned that they thought BLide has a linux version, but I could find no evidence of that on their website!) |
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| @d-bug: Good points!! I wanted a file that defined only the language keywords, and not anything else. The commands.txt contains functions and types AND does not define any of the alternate keyword spellings (ex: EndRem, End Rem). So, I made my own simple keywords file. The chances that BRL will add a new language keyword is slim, and if they do, it's an easy update to do. I know... the look of the UI is still not up to par. This is only a very early beta release and the look will eventually change and become more and more standard. However, I would love to hear specifically what you don't like. Would you join the forums on my website and submit ideas? Good idea for install path. I've uploaded new install files to the site that allows dragging to desired location. @JonD: I will eventually compile a Linux version of Blitzin. |
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| (Someone earlier mentioned that they thought BLide has a linux version, but I could find no evidence of that on their website!) There's no BLIde for Linux. |
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| Got your email Aarbrom. downloaded and was able to run it. Good start! Later on today or tomorrow I will register in your site to post some comments. Thanks for the update. |
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| Anyone have a clue as to how many total BlitzMax users worldwide? Well only BRL can tell you exactly how many but we can estimate by looking at how many users have joined since Bmx was released. The newest user id is 11892 and Neji must be one of the earliest Bmx users at 8451 which makes about 3400 but around half of those bought B+ or B3D. So I'd say it's between 1500 to 2000. Btw good luck with the IDE, I'd be interested in a Linux version. |
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| I'm sure that the number will be higher than that: - 'old' userID's can also have purchased Blitzmax: I'm in the 1500s, and use Blitzmax exclusively, just to mention one. There's a lot of Blitzmax users that started off using B3D / BlitzPlus / BlitzBasic, and already had a user ID in the system. - I'm sure that not everyone who purchased Blitzmax registered for the forums, in which case they wouldn't have been assigned a user ID. |
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| I was adding 9 source files by dragging them to the project list and I received the following error: Runtime Exception Occurred Error Message: (0) An error occurred while trying to save project file. Stack: CProjectManager.SaveProjectAtIndex%b%o<CProjectManager>i4b CProjectManager.SaveProject%b%o<CProjectManager>sb CProjectManager.AddExistingFile%%o<CProjectManager>su4o<FolderItem> CListboxProjectTree.Event_DropObject%%o<CListboxProjectTree>o<DragItem>i4 _Z17UpdateMouseCursorv Delegate.Invoke%% Application._CallFunctionWithExceptionHandling%%o<Application>p _Z33CallFunctionWithExceptionHandlingPFvvE _Z8mainloopv RuntimeRun REALbasic._RuntimeRun _Main % main Also, whilst dragging a folder of images to the project list: Runtime Exception Occurred Error Message: (0) Invalid method parameter: fileToAddFi Value: /Users/markoxley/Dropbox/Projects/Senet_old/images Stack: CProjectManager.AddExistingFile%%o<CProjectManager>su4o<FolderItem> CListboxProjectTree.Event_DropObject%%o<CListboxProjectTree>o<DragItem>i4 _Z17UpdateMouseCursorv Delegate.Invoke%% Application._CallFunctionWithExceptionHandling%%o<Application>p _Z33CallFunctionWithExceptionHandlingPFvvE _Z8mainloopv RuntimeRun REALbasic._RuntimeRun _Main % main |
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| Thanks for the info, Pengwin. I will look into it. Would you mind please submitting problems like these to the PrismaticRealms.com forums so as not to clutter up BlitzBasic.com's forums? Thanks! |
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| how about windows build? then im in... :D |
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| @Zeke: Windows build will be coming. So will a Linux build. Stay tuned. |
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| Looks interesting... Cannot wait to have a spin on the Windows version! :) Dabz |
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| Are there any savvy Linux users on here? I'm not familiar with this OS at all and could use some help. At the moment, I am interested in how application defaults should be saved. Mac OS X has the "defaults" Unix command. Windows has the Registry. On my Ubuntu install, I came across GConf which works well, but realized that applies to Gnome interfaces only. Should I assume that all Linux GUIs are Gnome? Or is there a solution that applies to all Linux implementations? I'm also entertaining the idea of simply writing a file with the data that I want, but where should I put it? In the app folder? On some dedicated folder in the file system? What is best? |
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| If the settings are to be global the /etc would be fine If the settings are user specific then in the users home directory (easily found by using the $HOME environment variable. Or a global one in /etc always parsed followed by reparsing the same name in the users home dir. In that sense you can have global defaults and then override as many or as few as you want on a per user basis. If its a config file it possibly good manners to start the configfile with a period (.) to keep it hidden from standard directory commands i.e /home/roger/.blitzed_defaults or somesuch (sorry don't know the name of your editor). if you want it visible then a name like blitzed.conf is a good unix convention for indicating that its text and contains configurable settings (ala .ini in windows). Regards, Roger. |
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| Thanks Roger. This would be for user-specific app preferences for Blitzin. (Editor font/colors, window positions, etc..) So, are you saying I should ignore gconf altogether? It seems that the Gnome UI is trying to standardize the location of app configs in ~/.gconf/apps/appname/%gconf.xml (or in category specific subfolders within appname.) There is an environment variable called DESKTOP_SESSION that, for me, is equal to "gnome". Maybe I'll code for Gnome and non-Gnome UIs by checking this variable...? |
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| I would use a simple configuration file in the user's home directory for the application. Not every system uses GNOME, so you won't always have gconf, and dealing with multiple configuration systems can get messy. |
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| I would stay desktop agnostic, KDE and GNOME are the most popular but there are many desktop managers out there XCFE, Metacity, E, Vanilla X, the list goes on and on. I would do your own simple key/value pair serialise in and out config file reader, a bonus would be that it would work without alteration under OSX if you go down that path as well. (woops just read back, is it an OSX product? I'm confused). I've got windows/OSX/linux so I might go to your website and have a look. Regards, Roger. |
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| You can save all the preferences in a hidden folder '.config' (it would make your app more "moveable" like on a usb drive). I'm a linux user and would love to see a mature IDE. Btw: will it be free? And please, don't use use FLTK for Linux ..., it's so unsexy >.< |
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| Any updates on this? I am very interested. :S |
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| Me too! Please inform us of any updates! |
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| Aye... MaxIDE ruins my joyous experience on programming on a Mac!!! MaxIDE smells of wee, its official*!!! Dabz *Well, since the sodding thing decided to remove a large portion of code that is... Bloody thing! |
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| From what I used of Blitzin, it looks very promising, but unfortunately the development version I was using has expired and there doesn't seem to be another one available yet. |
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| So, can we take it this Mac IDE in progress has gone the way of Norman Wisdom? Just wish Ziggy could do something for the Mac... When it comes to supporting software, the man is an absolute gem! Dabz |
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| I don't swim in gold, but I'd pay a lot for a REAL debugger, with realtime breakpoints during debugging, watching expressions and variables values displayed on mouse over... Developing under Mac/Linux with the standard ide environment is more than painful. :( |
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| @AarbronBeast: I have been watching this thread since it was first posted, is the new IDE finished yet? |
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| CaptainWicker... I clicked the link in AarbronBeasts signature and the first thing I saw was this: Blitzin development temporarily halted. 5 November, 2010 The development of Blitzin has been temporarily halted due to other higher priority projects. Blitzin v0.1.11b has been re-released today with an extended expiry date for longer-term use in the meantime. And the download clearly state it's a beta: http://www.prismaticrealms.com/software.html If you're going to keep digging up these old threads, you're going to have to get a bigger spade. |
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