Please do this

BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/Please do this

JoshK(Posted 2008) [#1]
We are planning to convert our engine to C/C++ later this year, more due to the stigma of using an unknown language rather than any technical limitations. From a technical standpoint, the switch is going to hurt us, but it has to happen sooner or later. Unfortunately other programmers usually have never heard of BlitzMax, they confuse it with DarkBasic, or think it is a scripting language. Since BRL's focus is shifting back to 3D development, it seems to me the BlitzMax question has played itself out. There is no possibility it will ever become a mainstream language based on "word of mouth", i.e. doing nothing.

There are a couple of easy things BRL could do to change this.

1. Offer a free educational license for schools to use BlitzMax in their course curriculum. Nothing else builds legitimacy like this. By making your technology a part of computer science education you establish it in the industry and create a generation of programmers who use your product. And it costs nothing.

2. Submit news items to GameDev.net, OpenGL.org, GamaSutra.com, and other programming sites. It's free advertising and all it requires is an email. My paper on deferred rendering has been downloaded over 2000 times in a couple of days.

3. Place a banner ad on GameDev.net. It costs something like $300 monthly, but it more than makes that money back in sales. We would not be able to operate without it. They'll even perform a free test run to let you see if it increases your sales.
http://www.gamedev.net/info/media/
advertising@...

A few technical improvements would go a long ways. These are the ones that are crucial for us to continue in the future with BlitzMax. GC with circular references is not crucial. I don't care that much about docs or overloading. The IDE is not crucial, since other code editors like BLIDE are available. I don't even care about modules that much because they can be added to by anyone. I care about core language features. These issues are critical:

1. Fix the freezing debugger.
EDIT: BLIde handles this well so I don't consider it a problem.

2. Have some kind of plan to eventually enable multithreading at some point in the future. Right now the only thing our engine really needs multithreading for is physics, and it is built into the Newton library, but programming is going to become increasingly parallelized in the future. I don't care if it doesn't happen for two years, just tell us that we eventually will have multithreading options.


Mark Tiffany(Posted 2008) [#2]
1. Fix the freezing debugger.

Have you tried Seb's fix for this? Try the latest CE IDE release (link in sig) for size, as this includes Seb's fix to the official IDE. Hopefully it addresses the problem...it certainly seems to address *a* problem with the debugger...

Other than that, for once, I agree with you.


Robert Cummings(Posted 2008) [#3]
Move to C++ for pro development. If it was gonna happen by now for blitz it would have happened by now.

As it is, blitz is perfect for the hobbyist and small title indie developer.


ziggy(Posted 2008) [#4]
I agree to what Leadwerks suggest. I would be plased also to give free BLIde Plus educational licenses to schools or unis.


degac(Posted 2008) [#5]
Considering that Mark is working on his 3d engine+physic support, I think he will find your same problems about multithreading & co: he also decided to 'switch' to C to make the '3d core' (from his last worklog) so other changes could be on the route. And if I remember correctly some times ago Mark spoke about multithreading problems... http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=71743

And about more advertising I agree with Leadwerks, but 'pro-programmer' (I think - I'm a hobbyist) maybe would expect 'pro' tools (like a more advanced IDE than the original one, a one-click-install-everything program, documentation...), not only the language itself. As said thousand times before in other threads...


Who was John Galt?(Posted 2008) [#6]
Yeah it's a shame BRL are 'too cool' to advertise, because they are wasting one hell of a product. Maybe Mark doesn't like the pressure associated with supporting a promoted product?

I program for a living and try to promote Blitz here and there, but they plain don't want to deal with a lesser known language, which is understandable.


Volker(Posted 2008) [#7]
I know, it's the decision of BRL how to publish and advertise
there products.
But Blitzmax is such a nice language and so
I agree to leadwerks, especially point 1. Do something to tell the world
that Blitzmax is there and make it easier for new
people to get in it.

What I think is missing, is something like a start-up bundle
for it.
If Blitzmax for example would be delivered with (compiled versions) of:
- MiniB3D
- Bruceys WxWidget module
- Blide (or the Community Edition)
new Users could start with everything needed without
searching the internet and testing half a year mods
and learning compiling them, installing MinGW etc. (like I did).
Ok, some money would have to be given to the 3rd party developers,
but it would be worth every cent.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#8]
Ok, some money would have to be given to the 3rd party developers,

Not really.


Digital Anime(Posted 2008) [#9]
I still hope all Blitz languages are going to be more well known in the future.

One thing I could do as Developer is to add info in the game like "Created with : BlitzMax" using the BlitzMax logo and webite link to make other people curious.
I would do this for free for Blitz as when they are better known by the world I have a greater chance that I can still use BlitzMax over 10 years.

But I will only do this if the Copyright owners of BlitzMax agree to this.


Winni(Posted 2008) [#10]
Sorry for being cynical, but when you replace "BRL" with "Apple" and "Mark Sibly" with "Steve Jobs", most of the posts about BlitzMax, its makers and its future begin to read as if they came from a discussion on macrumors.com.

You won't change the way BRL (or Apple) run their business. You can only change the course of your own. It's solely up to you whether you base committing business decisions on beliefs, hopes and wishful thinking instead of actual facts, met requirements and available roadmaps.


SebHoll(Posted 2008) [#11]
I would do this for free for Blitz as when they are better known by the world I have a greater chance that I can still use BlitzMax over 10 years.

I can't believe BRL would have any problems with this, unless you plastered "Made with BlitzMax" all over the latest virus you've just made.

I think this would be a very effective way of raising awareness particularly if someone like GreyAlien did this on his games.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#12]
Well, for us it looks like the long-term plan should be to leave BlitzMax. We're heavily invested in it right now, and it will still be some time before I'm able to make the move.

I have been using BLIde, and it doesn't have any problems with the debugger (as well as being an awesome editor), so there is half my complaints solved. The big remaining problems are that BlitzMax will likely never have multithreading support, and will never be any more well-known in the general programming community than it is now, even though it is a very viable alternative to Java, C#, VB, etc. It's sad because MaxGUI is so good, and so many schools would jump on it if Mark pulled his head out of his ass for a minute. They want something that lets students make something without scaring them off with too much programming before they see any results.


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#13]
Understandable. Blitzmax makes me anxious as well to work with when technology and software standards are growing so quickly, and blitzmax isn't going anywhere.

However it is true, it is up to mark whether to leave this language to dark dwellers or bring it to a larger audience. Fear is the only totaled logical reason I can think of for why it isn't advertised more. Not to mention, my signature quote matches sense we should have already understood.

I'm used to buying into crap and being bullsharted for updates after. Don't invest in anything that doesn't have everything you wanted in the first place, otherwise the joke's on you.


ImaginaryHuman(Posted 2008) [#14]
I dont think your justifications are entirely globally applicable to everyone. You are working on an engine for which you need to provide an interface for programmers, which ties it into needing to have the programming language be popular. This is not the case for most other developers using BlitzMax who are writing products which do not expose or need the programming language for the user to operate the product. e.g. games and applications which people produce with it. For these purposes it is much less important that BlitzMax be mentioned or even heard of. End users have pretty much no clue how a product was made or with what tools. So suggesting that this is some kind of downfall of BlitzMax itself or mistakes BRL are making is erroneous and exclusive to your own personal product line. Many many people are not going to be affected whatsoever by BlitzMax being a lesser known name. I think your other arguments don't really apply either because given that most end users of BlitzMax-created products have no awareness of what it was written with, it is also not important therefore for them to be a part of a larger population of BlitzMax programmers, or for the language to be more widespread or standard. All of your justifications really only apply to the small niche of software pertaining to creating game engines which have to be programmed or in some other way must be interfaced with a programming language. I would guess that overall is a small percentage of the total products being created with it. I'm sorry that it isn't meeting all of your personal needs but your needs are not shared by the majority. It would be nice if BRL advertised more or made the language more widely recognized but languages are for programmers, not end users.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#15]
I haven't had any problems with the C++ interface. The problem I have is the same as I had with 3D World Studio, as well as side jobs I have done. People will reject BlitzMax in favor of other solutions that will not provide as good of results, because they assume that a programming language they have never heard of must not be worth anything. That means investing time in BlitzMax will lead to lost opportunities.

Most of my suggestions cost nothing. It's not like I am selling them anything or suggesting they take a risk. BlitzMax is mature and can compete with other solutions, but it seems like Mark has no confidence in it.


Gabriel(Posted 2008) [#16]
I'm sorry that it isn't meeting all of your personal needs but your needs are not shared by the majority.

I completely disagree. His needs are shared by the majority, even if many of them don't know or don't care. Additional focus, attention, air of professionalism toward BlitzMax benefits everyone and the fact that it's easily achievable and not done hurts everyone. It's incredibly insular to think that more users, more people taking the language seriously, and at the risk of appearing mercenary more cold hard cash into the pocket(s) of the developer(s) of BlitzMax doesn't benefit us.

Of course, if one was feeling a little bit like a Devil's Advocate, one could almost say that not doing any of these things makes it much easier to stop working on whatever project it might be in favour of something else without noticeably skipping a beat.


ImaginaryHuman(Posted 2008) [#17]
Why does it matter that your software is written in blitzmax if nobody need to know about it in order to use your product?


Arowx(Posted 2008) [#18]
I started using Blitz way back on the Amiga and after eventually doing a degree in computing and working in the industry for a while with C++ and Java I re-discovered Blitz, mainly to mess about with games programming and to avoid all the complexities and layers of C++ or Java.

I think it would be a great educational language!

However maybe people don't put "Made with BlitzMax" on their games because it's not mainstream and it could put off portals or customers as it's not a technology they know.

For example a sales rep was chatting to a potential customer and the customer had mentioned Java, the sales rep affirmed that Java was the bee's knees and would be used, upon completing the call he turned to a nearby engineer and asked him, "What's Java?"!

I think that the territory that were talking about is called "Marketing" with all that weird branding stuff, t-shits, mug's, logo's, slogans, conferences... etc.


DavidDC(Posted 2008) [#19]

1. Offer a free educational license for schools to use BlitzMax in their course curriculum. Nothing else builds legitimacy like this. By making your technology a part of computer science education you establish it in the industry and create a generation of programmers who use your product. And it costs nothing.


I absolutely agree. All it would take is a minor web page change, a stock letter and the right email/web addresses to get the info out there. Perhaps the community could even help in hunting down the latter.

Blitzmax would be perfect for schools. It's actually quite frustrating seeing such a brilliant business opportunity going to waste.


Gabriel(Posted 2008) [#20]
Why does it matter that your software is written in blitzmax if nobody need to know about it in order to use your product?

When someone emails me and wants to buy the sourcecode - as has happened on several occasions with games I wrote in Blitz3D - it matters what language the source code is in.

When someone wants to publish my game but wants to localize it, and is prepared to hire someone to do the work, it matters what language the source code is in.

When someone wants me to integrate their payment processing system, copy protection system, targeted advertising system, or general value-added content system into my game, it matters what language the source code is in.

When I apply for a job, or a freelance project, and people want to know about my experience, it matters what language I wrote all that source code in.

I'm sure there are many more. Those are a few which affect me personally and would affect most other users. Assuming said user actually finishes something.


Czar Flavius(Posted 2008) [#21]
I was actually thinking about using BlitzMax as an educational language a few days ago. If this is so, one thing that will definately need improving is the documentation.


Zethrax(Posted 2008) [#22]
Another thing BRL could consider to promote mainstream acceptance of Blitz products, is setting up an affiliate program for the various Blitz products (assuming they don't have one already), and promoting the affiliate program on this site. I think ShareIt has this functionality.

This is a very easy thing to setup; is managed automatically by the payment processor; and it just means that BRL would be paying out a percentage of sales they probably wouldn't have otherwise made.

This would encourage people to promote Blitz on their released works, as it would give them an additional stream of income.

It would also allow people to create various projects built around promoting Blitz products. For example; commercial blogs documenting the development of closed and open source projects, that promote the Blitz product the project is being developed in. People reading the blog; viewing the source code, and no doubt thinking that they'd like to tinker with it; would be the perfect market to sell the Blitz product to.


Otus(Posted 2008) [#23]
Another thing: Try searching ShareIt for "BlitzMax". You find 5 products made for BlitzMax, but no BlitzMax or MaxGUI. It can only be brought through the official site.

Great marketing, guys.


Will(Posted 2008) [#24]
I sent a plan for getting Blitzmax adopted in education to BRL about a year ago. I offered to do all of the work, including starting a pilot program at New York University to kick it off!

I sent the email TWICE.

To date I have not received a response. I no longer recommend Blitzmax to people because my interactions with BRL are so frustrating.


DavidDC(Posted 2008) [#25]

I sent the email TWICE.


Good grief. Sigh...


plash(Posted 2008) [#26]
I sent a plan for getting Blitzmax adopted in education to BRL about a year ago.
Hmm.. this explains alot.


plash(Posted 2008) [#27]
I sent a plan for getting Blitzmax adopted in education to BRL about a year ago.
I sent the email TWICE.
Hmm.. this explains alot.


Who was John Galt?(Posted 2008) [#28]
I sent a plan for getting Blitzmax adopted in education to BRL about a year ago. I offered to do all of the work, including starting a pilot program at New York University to kick it off!
Man this is a real shame. Blitz would have been ideal for education IMO.


Winni(Posted 2008) [#29]
Java has taken the place of the main education language a long time ago, and Python is about to establish itself as the first/entry level education language. Java has always been available free of charge, and now it is even Free and Open Source.

"Killer Game Programming in Java" teaches the fundamentals of game programming in Java, and literally thousands of other books about Java cover almost anything anybody would ever want to know about programming. The best introduction to Java by far is Kathy Sierra's and Bert Bates' "Head First Java".

Python has fewer literature than Java, but also some excellent titles. Try the books by Alex Mortelli and Mark Lutz for starters.

There is literally no hard- or software platform on this planet that does not have a free Java or Python implementation.

BlitzMax is nice, but it neither has the marketing (Java) nor the hype (Python) those other giants have. It does not even have the most important feature that you need in education: A proper and exhaustive documentation.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#30]
BlitzMax is nice, but it neither has the marketing (Java) nor the hype (Python) those other giants have. It does not even have the most important feature that you need in education: A proper and exhaustive documentation.

That doesn't matter. They don't have to convince anyone to use it. BRL can just offer it, take it or leave it. I am not suggesting anything that would require any effort. Just add a web form for an educator's license application. The schools aren't going to say "Sorry Mark, your language isn't good enough". He doesn't even have to approach them or even talk to them.

We have one here:
http://www.leadwerks.com/educatorsapp.htm

The schools are very receptive to new ideas and approaches. Our engine is about three weeks old, and it is being used in two universities' curriculum this fall, Blekinge in Sweden and a game program in Atlanta. I didn't do anything except add that form on my site. I have not done any advertising at all yet.

The whole problem schools face is that beginning students get frustrated and drop out of classes if they are using a language that doesn't yield results fast enough. They would love BlitzMax for this reason, if they knew it existed.


Winni(Posted 2008) [#31]
I don't think the problem is that schools would say the language is not good enough. They will simply say that none of their teachers knows the language or knows it well enough to teach it, and that they don't see a demand for courses about that language. Licensing issues come much further down the list, and more important is the question why they should teach a niche language in the first place. What would be their incentive?

I also think that there is a big difference between programming languages and 3D engines or any other kind of application software. For example, Graphics Design schools might be very open to new tools, but Computer Science schools definitely are not. Designers love new tools because they might make them more efficient and give them cool new features and a competitive edge. Programmers on the other hand learn Java because that is where the jobs are and corporations hate expensive changes.

Look how many problems even Microsoft has to push C# and .NET into universities - and they have entire business divisions that do nothing else but evangelize their products. They only have a rather modest success compared to the effort they throw at it, despite the fact that all of their .NET stuff is free as in beer, extremely well documented and even popular among commercial developers.


The whole problem schools face is that beginning students get frustrated and drop out of classes if they are using a language that doesn't yield results fast enough. They would love BlitzMax for this reason, if they knew it existed.



I think they would love Python even more for the very same reasons: It has an interpreter for an interactive learning experience, it does not add the complexity of data types, it is free, has a huge community, can (and has been) used in games, is available anywhere for any purpose and "comes with batteries included".

Still, universities use Java instead. Obviously, SUN did an extraordinary great job with evangelizing their platform.

This is an academic discussion anyway. Like I've mentioned before, it's BRL's business, and it's solely up to them how they run it. And everything indicates that they have completely different ideas about that as many of their customers.

I've had similar discussions about Xbase++ with my management back at Alaska Software at the turn of the century, and they decided not to listen either. Alaska Software GmbH eventually went bankrupt. The same people then founded a "new company" named Alaska Software AG, which also went bankrupt two years later. Now they have founded yet another Alaska Software incarnation, I think this time it is an american "inc.", and from everything that I see, they still have not learned from their mistakes: Still no marketing and no pushing the product into schools. It's hopeless. At least the company is now small enough that they probably manage to live off the established user base. And it seems that BRL is content with that, too.


SoggyP(Posted 2008) [#32]
Hello.

Josh, save time - lie about the language you use.

Goodbye.


Nice_But_Dim(Posted 2008) [#33]
HaHa.Why use Blitzmax if the language is so below you Leadwerks.


SebHoll(Posted 2008) [#34]
Why use Blitzmax if the language is so below you Leadwerks.

I'm not sure he has ever said that - if anything Leadwerks is saying that BlitzMax is great for many uses.


*(Posted 2008) [#35]
We have been saying 'ADVERTISE BLITZ' every since BlitzBasic2d went out of beta but nothing happened (not for trying the old forum before this one was swamped with advertising requests).

In comparison look at DarkBasic that has affiliate programs hell the GDK is on M$'s website. I first heard about it from a PC Gamer coverdisk. Yes advertising works, BRL will die a death in the end and Blitz will go the same way Blitz2.1 for the amiga went. No amount of people using the language pays the bills, its new sales that pays the bills.

Oh and for the record I 100% agree with Leadwerks/Halo/Josh :)


plash(Posted 2008) [#36]
Maybe Mark doesn't want blitz to be big (oh please). Or none of BRL's employee's actually READ the forums.


Zethrax(Posted 2008) [#37]
Before buying Blitz3D I looked at many different game creation languages. In the end I decided Blitz was the best choice and bought it.

Today the choice is less clear. There are many similar products competing in the game creation market, and there will be more appearing in the future. The pond that BRL are swimming in is becoming increasingly crowded.

In short, the "can't be arsed" approach to marketting that BRL appear to adopt, is probably not going to be good enough for much longer.




christian223(Posted 2008) [#38]
When i started my own self research about what language to use for my games, i had no problem finding blitzmax, maybe it doesnt need more marketing?, i have no idea... its a wonderfull product and i recommend it, i have no complains actually.


*(Posted 2008) [#39]
the thing is if your looking for it then you will find it but by and by the people who advertise most get the most revenue then advertise more, this in turn makes it easier for them to get more revenue and puts them more in the public eye when people are looking for a item.

I found DarkBasic well before Blitz the main reason was it was on a PCGamer disk touted as allowing you to create 3d games fast, I own DBClassic, DBPro and a few others. TBH I only heard of Blitz again when I heard on the DarkBasic boards that Mark had started work on Blitzbasic2d.

Most companies that dont advertise do go under eventually yes there are some exceptions but when most people are new users and dont know what to get they go with advertising.


maximo(Posted 2008) [#40]
Leadwerks main guy should be hired by Blitz Research Main guy, how much improvment could be made and how much blizmax would advance in the world of programers, it would go by lightyears.

Mark you have to do something, all the effort you are doing is for nothing if the language it self dies and is never recognised by larger community.

Don't you want for blitzmax to be more recognized then it its today? Today nobody except us here on blitz forums has even heard of it. What exactly is done from Blitz Research side to make sure that this is so? Let the people help you, don't do all things your self, let community help!


smilertoo(Posted 2008) [#41]
Darkbasic promotes itself well, they even have some feeble demos included on the official nvidia Physx installer now.


Canardian(Posted 2008) [#42]
@maximo: I think it should be the other way around, if at all. For me Leadwerks Engine is the main tool, and BlitzMax and C/C++ are just 50/50 tools I need to use with it.


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#43]
but when most people are new users and dont know what to get they go with advertising.


Exactly...Because it shows the company is stable enough to advertise, so it has money, customers, and likely a longterm future. While we (blitzmax users) all know (or hope) that blitzmax won't die tomorrow, how can someone else know the same?

I don't think relying on word of mouth is very professional.

But hey, what do you know...it looks like we are talking to a wall again. You are a very sturdy wall, yes you are. Oochy woochy coochy coo? ah you're not very ticklish are you?


maximo(Posted 2008) [#44]
You are a very sturdy wall, yes you are. Oochy woochy coochy coo? ah you're not very ticklish are you?


lol :D


christian223(Posted 2008) [#45]
I would like to request a change too, to change the function name mousex() to mouse_x() since i am offended by the mouse intimate connotation, thankyou.


TaskMaster(Posted 2008) [#46]
LOL


Canardian(Posted 2008) [#47]
Well there is no mousex(), it's called MouseX() in BlitzMax/C++ standard, or mouse_x() in C standard, or even Mouse.GetX() in C++ OOP standard.


plash(Posted 2008) [#48]
Well there is no mousex(), it's called MouseX()
mousex() and mouseX() and MoUsEX() and MouseX() all refer to the same function in BlitzMax, so yes, there is a mousex(). BlitzMax is not a case sensitive language.


Canardian(Posted 2008) [#49]
It's not case sensitive when entering code, but it sure corrects your mistakes when you leave the line or save it :)

So it's like soft-case-sensitive.


plash(Posted 2008) [#50]
Not when you use Notepad, a language isn't defined by the editor you use. True though the documentation representation of a function is usually capitalized in such a manner.


KimoTech(Posted 2008) [#51]
I was thinking, maybe it could be a nice idea to write a blitz-like framework for c++ etc. so the blitz-developer would have easier to migrate to c++ .. i mean a framework which includes functions like (Sin with degrees instead of radians, easy String handling functions like ucase, instr etc. and some nice vector/list classes)


boomboom(Posted 2008) [#52]
I have been developing an application in Blitz3D over the last year and I am now in a situation were I have to choose what languages I will develop in the future.

I could stick with Blitz3D but I would really like to take advantage of OOP. So now, as I see it, I have 2 options. Take the BlitzMax route or the C# route. From what I see both are around the same in terms of learning, but C# is a more widely known and used language, which really means I have to go with it, as if the company grows I will find staffing problems sticking with Max.

Also its not doing my career any good by sticking with blitz, as its not used in any part of the industry.

I wish I could stick with Blitz family of products, and I will probably still do b3d stuff in my spare time, but for work its looking like C# and TV3D.


*(Posted 2008) [#53]
that will always be the problem Blitz will have, it will never be a mainstream language unless people know about it. BRL wont advertise otherwise it will get bigger and they will have to do more and it seems they dont want to do that.

I just wish that BRL, The Game Creators and the PureBasic crew got together and hashed out something that will last.


christian223(Posted 2008) [#54]
If you are developing something to use with blitzmax, then why not advertise it yourself?. That way people get to try blitzmax AND your product, and if they like it they will buy both. I see no reason not to do that.


Zethrax(Posted 2008) [#55]
Solstar Games recently started promoting their Realmcrafter product on The Game Creators website. Since they started that, the number of registered users on their forum has increased by about 150 new users, whereas before they were lucky to get a new user every day or so.

I don't know how accurately the number of new forum users reflects sale figures for Realmcrafter, or what percentage they're paying out in affiliate fees - but assuming those figures are an accurate indication of sales then that means they've sold about $15,000 worth of product in the few short weeks since they started promoting the product on the TGC site. That's a pretty healthy injection of capital.

Now Mark's marketting strategy is his business, but this sort of thing is a good example of what effective marketting can do for a company's bottom line.


*(Posted 2008) [#56]
In other words BRL could sell games made with Blitz on here and take a percentage of the profits. This would also make it easier to for them and give the relevant advertising.


Zethrax(Posted 2008) [#57]
Yes that would be a good idea, too.

Actually it would probably be a good idea for Mark to have a shop area to promote various affiliate links for games, game playing related, and game making related items, as well as web hosting and other stuff that would interest the site's visitors. Many companies such as Amazon, Ebay, Real Arcade, etc, have copy-and-paste solutions for online shops, and this sort of thing would be a decent additional funding source for BRL. It would also be useful for the visitors to this site to have all those relevant product links available on the site.

But, we're talking about Mark here. The man who thinks 'Off Topic' and the internet in general is boring. I can't see it happening.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#58]
Funny, we are talking to Solstar games right now...


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#59]
If you are developing something to use with blitzmax, then why not advertise it yourself?. That way people get to try blitzmax AND your product, and if they like it they will buy both. I see no reason not to do that.



I do...it's not our job, it's not our product..why should we focus on something the creator should be? If blitzmax was 'free', sure it would be our duty, but this is not the case.

We are asking Mark to do something that meets common sense with a bigger garbage bag full of money, so he, and the rest of us can do more with blitzmax. We are just asking him to update it (yesss...his own product) and advertise it more.

There's other (possibly less preferrable) languages out there for alternatives, and it's his integrity loss...not ours. I wonder why we try so hard to get this wall to speak back, when clearly the wall doesn't give a rats asshat, and IF the wall responds, most of it will be of no use to us...it's a wall.

I've already decided i'm dropping blitzmax once i'm done my work with it, instead of continuing to 'hope' for things to get done for the future. I offer the same suggestion to anyone growing stressed over the future of blitzmax...don't play stubborn-wars.

And as for advertising blitzmax, if we were completely honest about the cons, I don't think we would be doing any favour for blitz.

*looks at own signature quote* Hey! you're right!


christian223(Posted 2008) [#60]
"i wont do it becuase he should do it"... ok...


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#61]
No, I won't do it because I have my own crap to worry about advertising, as do others? I won't put focus to it also because I didn't pay for a product so I could advertise it, even if it was cheap. What i'm saying, is that it shouldn't be our job, as it seems to be completely up to us as to whether it gets advertised, because mark (who should be) is not.

I'm not saying "NO DONT DO IT! KITTENS WILL DIE". It just shouldn't be relied upon us..

Also, even if we succeeded in getting the language well-known, without any influence to and from mark, the language would begin to die if he doesn't keep up with the times on features and at least 'some' popular vote requests on things we cannot update, as opposed to 'yet another 3d engine', which will begin to fade after a few years after its release when he gets bored of it and moves onto yet another product.

Blitz is pretty amazing...it's just it could be so much more if mark (the wall) kept his head on a bit tighter with things.


christian223(Posted 2008) [#62]
Well, i think that if the reality is that you cannot expect advertising from the creators of blitzmax, and you would like it to be advertized so that it also benefits you, then there is only thing left to do, and im not talking about complaining. Either advertize blitzmax alone, or advertize your product and blitzmax at the same time, i would go for the second, if you want it then dont hope for someone else to do it for you, do it yourself, you tried the complaining and it didnt work, now try the action part and see what it does.


Jesse(Posted 2008) [#63]
I think Mark is walking on his third leg and find it dificult to keep up with technology. He is trying hard to stay afloat when the overload is pushing him down. Besides, I have gatten to think Mark is a loner and by no means a business man(gambler) with a vision. He is playing it safe maybe because of personal experiences, staburn behavior, or old age(I don't know :)). Most of us here sees the end of the road for BlitzXXX and while dreams are the last thing to die, I hold my breath and hope for a miracle but my limbs are numbing.

I'm starting to wonder how long before Mark Puts his copyrights for sale.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2008) [#64]

I think Mark is walking on his third leg



Is there such thing as a penis reduction?

personally I've started the move to C++ already. we have some libs to release to the community, but after that i'll not be producing any projects with Max, only supporting what is released.


Gabriel(Posted 2008) [#65]
Either advertize blitzmax alone, or advertize your product and blitzmax at the same time, i would go for the second, if you want it then dont hope for someone else to do it for you, do it yourself, you tried the complaining and it didnt work, now try the action part and see what it does.

I'm guessing you don't have any products to advertise? If you did, you'd know that advertising is about picking the right audience. People who play games are not a worthwhile audience to advertise BlitzMax to. You might as well advertise cookery courses to people buying takeout pizza. You'd probably also be aware of the possibility of destroying sales of your own product while you failed to do anything for BlitzMax in the same breath. Bad idea all around.


Mahan(Posted 2008) [#66]
I disagree with some theories/opinions in this thread:

I think Mark is walking on his third leg and find it dificult to keep up with technology


BlitzMAX is not made to keep up with technology, it's made to make it easy to make games. (One cannot seriously think that one can compete with Java/Sun and C# M$ today with a small organisation. It's however possible to be a player on a small niche.)


Because Mark designed BlitzMAX ontop of established open source libraries from the beginning, and made it extensible we can already do lots and lots with BlitzMAX. Simons excellent MiniB3D and Bruceys all database/xml/etc. implementations and wrappers shows how much other people can add to the language externally.

Java has taken the place of the main education language a long time ago, and Python is about to establish itself as the first/entry level education language. [...]



I've written both Java and Python(and ofc. lots of other languages too) professionally.

I only play around with game programming as a hobby. I'll tell you why I choose BlitzMAX eventhough i know both python well and Java very well, and eventhough I've tried writing small games in both Java and Python before:

1) Integration - Getting libs/JAR's (and their JNI-attached dlls etc.) running is a pain for me. And to start any "game-ish" you might need to install a whole lot of these whereas BlitzMAX is focused on games so eighter you'll have everything you need builtin or you install 1 or 2 modules and get going fast.

Don't get me wrong: I understand JARs and JNI well and I've written several JNI solutions myself. Configuring and setting things like this up in my spare time is something i really want to avoid.

2) Distribution - Both java and python applications are a bit messy to distibute in an easy fashion due to the need to distribute the JVM/Python-engine with the product. And you usually need to write some little launcher of some kind and you need to provide paths to mentioned libs and stuff mentioned in #1 (and do it in a way that does not break existing python/java installations on your customers computer etc).

With BlitzMAX your minimum installer could be as easy as a selfextracting archive. With a little additional work one can use an installer system from SourceForge to get an nice installer that creates shortcuts on the desktop and that stuff. And no messing with setting up JVM's, CLASSPATH's, paths to DLL's and stuff.

I do understand how a professional game developing company chooses C++ for .NET etc. for a professinal game ofc, but for small scale (or hobby) development all "corner-cutting" counts :)

(excuse me for any bad grammar/spelling. I hope you get my points anyway.)


Jesse(Posted 2008) [#67]

BlitzMAX is not made to keep up with technology, it's made to make it easy to make games

yes, games that either wont run or wont run at its potential in future operating systems or newer processors.

I am just writing nonesence. Ignore me.


christian223(Posted 2008) [#68]
I'm guessing you don't have any products to advertise? If you did, you'd know that advertising is about picking the right audience. People who play games are not a worthwhile audience to advertise BlitzMax to. You might as well advertise cookery courses to people buying takeout pizza. You'd probably also be aware of the possibility of destroying sales of your own product while you failed to do anything for BlitzMax in the same breath. Bad idea all around.


I was talking about the specific case of building tools for bmax, not games. You just aim the advertizing to devs and problem solved.
The creator of the thread suggested advertizing on a site, why not that that himself?, im serious, if it benefits their product, i think they should do it, i would if i had a tool for blitzmax to sell.


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#69]
yes, games that either wont run or wont run at its potential in future operating systems or newer processors.

I am just writing nonesence. Ignore me.



Nice dodge, but i'm with you. Even in current times games made with blitz aren't running their full potential in modern 'average' systems with 2+ cpus. Ignore me too though, incase.

i would if i had a tool for blitzmax to sell.

Would you advertise blitzmax if you 'made' blitzmax? Mark doesn't have to, but some of us are judging him for little/no action.

BlitzMAX is not made to keep up with technology, it's made to make it easy to make games

Multithreading isn't new for one. And yeah...n64 is still a great system, but over time...does anyone make games for it now? Unlike n64, blitz products can be updated to come close to new technology, and not completely lose towards new competition.

One cannot seriously think that one can compete with Java/Sun and C# M$ today with a small organisation.


No, but instead of trying to compete with the *counter rising* amount of already *done it* 3d engines that will obviously go above and beyond mark's (one person) engine, which will fall behind in features as well soon enough after its release, as history repeats itself; why not improve the current products to meet a common level of interest between businesses and indies, oh, and current customers (waoh bro! forgot about those, or just don't care. * minus integrity *) and get on with it?

These comments aren't meant to be aggressive towards mark, they are meant in response, since you don't seem to understand where some comments are coming from. It's also funny, because the people who go *i love you i love you, shutup its the best ever* always come back when they start to hit the bacteria spots on the scope of reality in a product.

This language holds no real future for me, so I don't truly care what mark does in the end, but I think the debates are pretty popular and the topics become more and more interesting. I'm just curious to see the end results and what the rest think of it all.

Time


Mahan(Posted 2008) [#70]
Even in current times games made with blitz aren't running their full potential in modern 'average' systems with 2+ cpus.


Games of today don't generally utilize 2 cores well (not to mention 4 cores). I've monitored CPU usage of quite a few modern games and noticed that lots and lots of games barely use 2 cores and I have yet to see a game that makes both cores work equally and really spread the cpu-load. Most games use much (80-100%) of 1 core and just a little if any (< 5%) on the other core.

Two cores are however good because other processes (like antivirus etc) can run on the other core when a game is running, but this advantage is the same even in single threaded games.

Multithreading isn't new for one.


I agree multithreading is important and I'd probably give it prio#1 myself if I was in charge (because some things like networking and "on the fly"-loading of geometry can be written so much better with it imho.)

What I'm trying to say is that by the looks of system utilization in todays games most are written in the usual (1 cpu) way:

while !terminated {
  readUserInput();
  recalcData();
  redrawBackBuffer();
  swapBuffers();
}


What I think will happen in the future is that there will come new idioms that will make games benefit from 2, 4, 8 .. n cores (more that just networking and pre-caching offload etc.).

I think that BlitzMAX will get multithreading someday. Ref-counted garbage collection combined with multithreading is not a huge mystery and has been done before. (Example: www.freepascal.org/ with the use of IInterface and TInterfacedObject. And freepascal runs perfect on Windows, Linux, OS X, FreeBSD ... and so on)

A languages future is determined of what is made with it.


Jesse(Posted 2008) [#71]
I am a hobbist programmer, I like Bmax and I will probably will be using it long after it dies out(just a thought), but from what I seen here, I think Mark Will make a new one then he is just going to abandon Bmax like his previous other products. First to work on the new one is he going to have to ignore the current one and ultimately abandon it. Secondly Without proper advertising how else is he going to get sales? Some of us have been here long enough to see the patern.


*(Posted 2008) [#72]

A languages future is determined of what is made with it.



I think a languages future is partly down to what its made with, the other part being what it supports and how easy it is to access it.


Mahan(Posted 2008) [#73]
I think a languages future is partly down to what its made with, the other part being what it supports and how easy it is to access it.


Agree 100% (much better summary than mine!)


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#74]
I would not call BMX "abandoned" considering there was a new version released about 2 weeks ago.

I have noticed the presumed superiority of CPP has been dropping away lately, especially with the popularity of C#. I do a search about once a week for our engine, and I have never read anyone complaining about it not being written in CPP. In fact, most of the CPP programmers I know are endlessly tinkering around with structures and ideas and never producing anything uesful. It's sort of become like Linux; a few nerds will loudly preach its supposed superiority, but people who need to get work done quietly use something else.

I also know for a fact that we have prompted a number of people to buy BlitzMax licenses who would not have otherwise.

But I am not happy about this shift back to a 3D engine. Obviously I have no interest in it, and to me BlitzMax is a much broader more interesting product, but I guess I am biased. Unfortunately the development of a new 3D product probably means the end of serious BlitzMax development, and we will never see it go beyond what it is now. And it is so damn good, I was just hoping for a few more features. I always thought BRL was just preparing their technology before they started making a push to promote it. But if we are seeing the height of it right now, and no attempt to inform the public it exists, then we programmers who use it are always going to be considered "off the map".

It sucks because NVidia has told me they want to support other languages with their SDKs, and Newton 2.0 is going to include a BMX module only because of my work with it. So I am doing quite a bit, but it's like how much can you stand up for someone who doesn't even stand up for themselves? I feel stupid going on to other people about how great BlitzMax is, when it seems like the developer can't even be bothered to get out of bed.

And of course we have seen the extent of BRL's attempt at product promotion. Back when the idea of BlitzMax first came into light, Mark made it out like it was going to be an end-all be-all combination of OO and BASIC. He pretty much succeeded in this, but of course Mark has the business sense of an autistic 12-year-old. I can picture him putting his hands over his ears, screaming, and rocking back and forth any time he hears the word "advertise".


Gabriel(Posted 2008) [#75]
I was talking about the specific case of building tools for bmax, not games. You just aim the advertizing to devs and problem solved.

Oh, I completely misunderstood then. You're suggesting that programs which are designed for users of BlitzMax should advertize BlitzMax to users who already have to own BlitzMax, not just know about it, in order to be looking at the tool in the first place. Well in that case, I withdraw my objections, as it's clearly a brilliant idea.


Amon(Posted 2008) [#76]
lol!


Retimer(Posted 2008) [#77]
I can picture him putting his hands over his ears, screaming, and rocking back and forth any time he hears the word "advertise".


"I like...I like the green room" (inside joke from the movie 'Cube')

It seems you have done a lot for blitzmax leadwerks. Unlike fantasy land, good deeds usually have no reward.
Blitz has the community that could make the difference for blitz, but yeah...mark would need to get out of bed.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#78]
Another conversation today on the Newton forum:

Julio: There is a person who asked me to add him to the developer group, and I did it but he cannot read the forum. Does anyone know what else I need to do? His name is xxxxxxxx and he also uses darkbasic.

Me: Yeah, I talked to "xxxxxxxx" as well on MSN. But we do not use DarkBasic! We use BlitzMax. DarkBasic is an interpreted language that uses DirectX to draw 3D graphics. BlitzMax is a cross-platform object-oriented BASIC language with no graphics engine.

Julio: Sorry I meant BlitzMax. I do not know why I confuse the two.

Koom: I made many times the same confusion too hehe no idea why exactly.



puki(Posted 2008) [#79]
When I did the You Tube test and posted "fredborg's" JSL environment test on YouTube, people where like 'WOW!!! is that Blitz3D - no way!!!'

It's one of the most watched Blitz3D videos out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuccl9ywyKQ

It possibly has created Blitz3D sales, if not increased demo downloads, in the past year or so.

I think we could shunt BMax by using Leadwerks Engine in the same way.

The commercial public just don't get excited over this 2d puzzle game and that 2d puzzle game in the same way they drool over something look cutting edge, with current features.

Many people must have bought into Blitz3D looking to make a FPS or snazzy/cool-looking 3D game of some sort. I bet a lot of Blitzers would like to make a HL2 or a Doom3 or something that is technically and visually advanced. Well, with Bmax and Leadwerks Engine you can - just think of how cool it would be to be working on a project that visually looks like the big-boy stuff out there.

"halo" has been putting effort into the video tutorials and PDFs and most of this is aimed at BlitzMax.

I would certainly hate to see Leadwerks Engine depart from Blitzland. I feel that those people who had always wanted to make an FPS (or still do) should seriously consider Leadwerks Engine.

You've seen the videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAYPTWqgF5U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmN7OLy6yUY

You know it looks exciting.

You want it.

You know you do.


JoshK(Posted 2008) [#80]
Well, the first consequence of this is I am no longer producing BlitzMax tutorials. It's okay to expect BlitzMax users to follow a C++ tutorial, but it is not okay to expect C++ programmers, who are a majority of our users, to follow along with a language they have never heard of.
http://www.leadwerks.com/files/Tutorials/

The second thing is that I am rethinking our use of BriskVM in favor of Lua. BriskVM is probably a better solution for us, and it is very easy to use, but I am not sure if the Blitz-like syntax and association with Blitz is a good idea (which is probably why the author renamed it "Brisk"). I think in general we should be moving towards more standard solutions. I am sick of the confusion of people thinking I wrote LE in DarkBasic.

And finally, I have been working with C++ a bit, and it is likely that our engine will be written in C++ at some undefined point in the future, once I feel the transition can be made without too much pain.


*(Posted 2008) [#81]

And finally, I have been working with C++ a bit, and it is likely that our engine will be written in C++ at some undefined point in the future,



Yup thats something that we will hear a lot more of in the future, basically when people reach the end of the road with Max/3d/+ they will move to something else.

Im using PureBasic atm because of inline ASM, Threading etc. If Max had these I would still be using it but that was squashed right away so I moved to something that does have it. I love BlitzMax its good to code in and debug BUT it doesnt have the features that I required. Ive also been playing with DarkBasic Professional v7.0beta's BUILT IN CSG functions that seem fast, want to test it with a big level tho.

As for advertising you would have better hope of the second coming, unless we advertise it you havent got a hope.


Chroma(Posted 2008) [#82]
Ed...you're using PureBasic with what graphics engine?