Mythical 3D Module
Archives Forums/General Discussion/Mythical 3D Module
| ||
| Well, BMAX has been out for two years now (rough estimate). Is BRL going to come out with an official 3D module or not? I see some work going on with MiniB3D, but it's incomplete and doesn't quite cover all of the 3D features yet. |
| ||
| Doesn't look like it. |
| ||
| Definitely perhaps. You may or may not wish to wait. |
| ||
| Is BRL going to come out with an official 3D module or not? Does it really matter at this point? There are plenty of good 3D solutions available. |
| ||
| Does it really matter at this point? There are plenty of good 3D solutions available. Yes.Whilst there are plenty of good 3d moduals about, if you havent learnt any of them yet, then spending the time to learn one, for Max3d to be release halfway though learning it, is a waste. Equaly, someone who hasnt started to learn one of the external engines, maybe might be convinced to take one up if Max3D isnt even on the Horizon yet. My opinion, is that there will be a BlitzMax3D wrapper within weeks of Max3d being released, and as two of the alternative Engines already have this command set, (IrrB3d and MiniB3D), and as Max is OOP anyway.... Ppl should at this point already be programing in 3D, if its 3D they bought Max for. |
| ||
| Whilst there are plenty of good 3d moduals about, if you havent learnt any of them yet, then spending the time to learn one, for Max3d to be release halfway though learning it, is a waste. Why? I see two possible scanarios:1) You're halfway to mastering TV3D (for example). Max3D comes out. You abandon TV3D in favor of Max3D. You start learning Max3D instead. It'll still take you as long as if you'd sat around doing nothing. Starting to learn TV3D is not going to bring Max3D along any sooner. 2) You're halfway to mastering TV3D (for example). Max3D comes out. You have a lot of time invested in TV3D so you pass on Max3D. Your game (or whatever) is finished sooner, because you don't have to learn Max3D in the middle of it. In either case, it's a win/win situation. Equaly, someone who hasnt started to learn one of the external engines, maybe might be convinced to take one up if Max3D isnt even on the Horizon yet. Well it isn't, and they aren't. |
| ||
| Must we keep doing this every other week?? Is the search feature broken or something? There must be at LEAST 20 threads identical to this one. Maybe something about Max3D should be added to the FAQ. And the FAQ made more 'obvious' to stop people from having to ask where it is. |
| ||
| @GFK, its only a sign of what the brauder userbase wants, given that this chap has not seen the threads you have indicate that hes not as forum active as you or I are. there are a hell of a lot more blitz forum users out there that only check the forums when needed, and they miss stuff like this. So I expect we will see a lot more of people asking this question and I welcome it, because any new poke in marks side is welcomed to get his finger out his arse and get it finished. PS. Mark <3!! |
| ||
| In either case, it's a win/win situation hahaha, I read what you posted as a loose loose situation. 1)You wasted time learning TV3d.2)Your stuck using TV3D, when you wanted to learn Max3d (I agree with you totaly about how stupid it is to moan about the lack of Max3D) However I think your two examples show exactly why for some people the need for a time line is important. |
| ||
| have to admit that I agree with H&K here as I read it the same way. |
| ||
| its only a sign of what the brauder (sic) userbase wants, given that this chap has not seen the threads you have indicate that hes not as forum active as you or I are. there are a hell of a lot more blitz forum users out there that only check the forums when needed, and they miss stuff like this. Like I said... there's a Search feature. |
| ||
| GfK you ever ask yourself why no one uses the search function on the forum ? Ask the question, you might find the answer. |
| ||
| GfK you ever ask yourself why no one uses the search function on the forum ? Because they can't find it? Because they've got Glaucoma? Because they just can't be arsed?Ask the question, you might find the answer. I use it all the time. But I'm done searching for stuff for other people who simply can't be bothered to do it themselves. |
| ||
| Because they think they are "special" |
| ||
| I also use it, but I also know some other reasons why people dont use it. 1. Its segmented into groups, thats really annoying when you may miss threads still on the subject your looking for that just happen to be in another section of the forum, and repeating your search like 5 times is well.. to much like hard work. 2. Re asking a question thats been asked before in a new thread allows you to ask the question your own way and gain a specific response to your problem, even if other posts are similar they may not be exactly what your looking for. 3. If people didn't make new threads the fourms would have about 20 posts, and each post would have about a million replies. slightly over the top i know but I am sure you could imagine how annoying that would be to read. having new posts keeps the forum clean and easy to scan and read, As a rule I don't think any thread should grow over 20 posts. thats just me tho. 4. Flaming in any form of anyone asking a question on the forums regardless of what the question is does not look good to those who don't know why your doing it, even if you explain why in your post it will still put those browsing the forums to see if its worth buying blitz, off from buying it based on a hostile forum environment where people get bitch slapped for not using the search button. I have to apologize for my small rant, It's just that having one of those elitist attitudes about forum's coding or anything really annoys me. not saying you are or do, but others might get that impression, and its not a good impression to make, when you want your community to grow and be an open and welcoming place for new users. and old. |
| ||
| 1. Its segmented into groups, thats really annoying when you may miss threads still on the subject your looking for that just happen to be in another section of the forum, and repeating your search like 5 times is well.. to much like hard work. There is a "Search All Forums" feature. 2. Re asking a question thats been asked before in a new thread allows you to ask the question your own way and gain a specific response to your problem, even if other posts are similar they may not be exactly what your looking for. How many ways is it possible to ask "Where is Max3D"? 3. If people didn't make new threads the fourms would have about 20 posts, and each post would have about a million replies. slightly over the top i know but I am sure you could imagine how annoying that would be to read. having new posts keeps the forum clean and easy to scan and read, As a rule I don't think any thread should grow over 20 posts. thats just me tho. The forum only having 20 threads, would be better than having a hundred threads where 80 of them are about the same thing. Thats just me tho. 4. Flaming in any form of anyone asking a question on the forums regardless of what the question is does not look good to those who don't know why your doing it, even if you explain why in your post it will still put those browsing the forums to see if its worth buying blitz, off from buying it based on a hostile forum environment where people get bitch slapped for not using the search button. Having an opinion thats different to your own, does not constitute "Flaming" or "Bitchslapping".So to summarise, you came up with ONE reason why people don't use the search feature. And even that wasn't valid. |
| ||
| . |
| ||
| On the other hand... 1) The search function is very good. You can search per forum, per product or all forums for all products. There is a Quick (generally single words) and an 'Advanced' version of the search. 2) Finding multiple, slightly older, matches to your question gives you some history and a 'completed' debate on your subject. Starting a new post might take a few days to get a full picture and differing views. 3) Finding other posts on the same subject allows you to reference them if you still need to post. This provide others with some more background and demonstrates a willingness to help get a solution rather than have it spoonfed. 4) Asking the same question over and over is impolite especially when there is a search function. It's a bit like asking question which are in an FAQ. 5) Finding your own answer can provide a bit of satisfaction much like coding your own routine rather than being given it. 6) Searching the forums might return 'other' discussions which might be useful and/or of interest. <edit> and what GFK said. |
| ||
| I think the problem is not "many threads" against "one thread with 100 replies", it's the lack of official information about Max3D, a sticky post with BRL view on the subject may solve all this, especially if it exposes answers rather than doubts, and if it's updated more than once every 4 months. To answer to this post, I choosed to use minib3d, I trust the community for improving it, I think Brl will support it and I like that I can improve/modify it to my wishes. |
| ||
| GfK, were gona have to agree to disagree, thats fine tho people are entitled to their own opinion, thats what makes the world tic. @Tony, yeah those are some really valid points, I do use the search feature a lot, the problem is that some times, old answers are made obsolite with language changes, and you need to ask the same question again to gain a new insight or new answer, not only that but development styles change as well and again asking the same question can yield new answers as that changes a lot as well. Starting a new thread, and asking an old question is not a bad thing and should never be shunned, you never know what can change in a very short period of time, so the answers you think you have may not be accurate any more. Asking questions is good. Asking old questions, also good. these are forums, made to communicate with people, and some people like to have that communication on their own to allow them to put questions to the community in their own terms. its human nature. |
| ||
| Every time the "where's the 3d module" question is raised there are always a bunch of people saying "you don't need it, there is already a solution in the XYZ mod." Thing is, thats not the question asked. They didn't ask for 'a 3d solution' they asked about the BRL 3d Module. Maybe some people don't want a 3rd party module developed by an individual with no guarantee of support or future development? Perhaps they would prefer to pay for the OFFICIAL 3d solution from BRL, as created by the same team and which is ultimately likely to have the largest supported user base? |
| ||
| I am one of those people Rik. I am waiting for it, Until it comes I will us MiniB3D since its about as close as you can probably get to it, and I dont need to relearn anything. |
| ||
| 1)You wasted time learning TV3d. Which I suppose is somehow worse than wasting time procrastinating on an Internet forum, asking pointless questions that have already been answered 100 times over. 2)Your stuck using TV3D, when you wanted to learn Max3d How do you know you want to learn to use Max3D? You don't know the first thing about Max3D. Then you've wasted two years waiting for something that didn't live up to your expectations. In what reality is that preferable to knowing TV3D? it's the lack of official information about Max3D The official information is "what 3D module?". Maybe some people don't want a 3rd party module developed by an individual with no guarantee of support or future development? There's no such guarantee from first party developers either. BRL can just as easily go out of business as Glimmer Games or Leadwerks. They didn't ask for 'a 3d solution' they asked about the BRL 3d Module. Again. "What 3D module". which is ultimately likely to have the largest supported user base? No offense, but I think it's reasonably unlikely that BRL is going to have a larger userbase than (say) Irrlicht or TV3D. Until it comes I will us MiniB3D since its about as close as you can probably get to it, There is no indication what so ever that Max3D is going to be anything like Blitz3D or MiniB3D. For all we know it could just as well turn out to be an OGRE wrapper. |
| ||
| Stupid question (3d engine related): Is there someone that has created the SAME example running on different engine (miniB3D, TV3d, Irrlicht and so on) compiled with Bmax and ready to run? Yes I know that is not fully correct (some engine supports advanced features than others), but this should be a 'right' answer for all who is interested in developing some stuff in Bmax+3d engine... Just my opionion of course |
| ||
| I'm fully aware of the search feature. I use it all the time. It's the only way one can learn to use BMAX (Given the poor documentation.) I found the previous threads. I started a *new* thread because I wanted to revive the topic. I want to use the OOP features of BMAX to write the game I'm designing. There is a 3D aspect to the game. I only have time to learn the features of *one* 3D engine. It would be nice if there was an official BRL 3D Module (or 3D version of BMAX). It looks like I may end up using MiniB3D. The longer BRL takes to come up with this mythical 3D module, the more sales they are going to loose due to people having taken up one of the many free 3D engines that are being developed in the community. Now please understand, this isn't a jab at BRL. I love what they're doing. I own nearly every version of Blitz Basic (including a version for the Amiga and the C=64) I recommend it to anybody who wants to get into game programming. |
| ||
| I want to use the OOP features of BMAX to write the game I'm designing. I don't think that would be a problem with the 3rd party 3D solutions I only have time to learn the features of *one* 3D engine You can safely assume it won't be Max3D from all the other topics on the subject.In addition, if you have to do it *NOW* then it's got to be something other than Max3D. The longer BRL takes to come up with this mythical 3D module, the more sales they are going to loose due to people having taken up one of the many free 3D engines that are being developed in the community. In addition, BRL have suggested users find an alternative 3D solution so are prepared for the loss of custom. They've even given MiniB3D their blessing (hence the specific forum). <edit> P.S. Blimey, I didn't know there was C64 BlitzBasic. |
| ||
| <edit> P.S. Blimey, I didn't know there was C64 BlitzBasic. Yep. It was a p code compiler. It didn't compile your programs to machine language. But they still ran quite a bit faster. Guess I'll download and start looking into MiniB3D. I just hate the thought of developing something with beta versions of a software product. |
| ||
| I just hate the thought of developing something with beta versions of a software product. Something's got to give though. |
| ||
| I just hate the thought of developing something with beta versions of a software product. It's just a naming convention, TV3D and Minib3D are officially beta and are perfectly usable and stable. Personally I prefer these kind of beta, than a bugged release. |
| ||
| Personally I prefer these kind of beta, than a bugged release. Absolutely! |
| ||
If 3DModuleExists("Max3D")
3DModule = "Max3D"
else
3DModule = "miniB3D"
Endif
|
| ||
| 1)You wasted time learning TV3d. Nope, both loose situationsWhich I suppose is somehow worse than wasting time procrastinating on an Internet forum, asking pointless questions that have already been answered 100 times over. 2)Your stuck using TV3D, when you wanted to learn Max3d I doesnt matter if you know you want to learn Max3D, you know you dont want to learn any of the third party engines. How do you know you want to learn to use Max3D? You don't know the first thing about Max3D. Then you've wasted two years waiting for something that didn't live up to your expectations. In what reality is that preferable to knowing TV3D? |
| ||
| I have to admit that I am one of those people that will be waiting on Max3D, I will like other use miniB3D until it arrives for the simple reason that its a syntax and structure that I am comfortable with. and requires very little if any retraining. Lets face it, how many people could point me in the direction of an Indie game that uses some of the things TV3D has or Ogre has that cant be done with Blitz. I don't think I have seen anything yet, from any new engine that I have thought, oh thats nice, cant do that in blitz. and by do that I mean, cant achieve the same look. |
| ||
| Nope, both loose situations I still don't understand why learning TV3D is a lose situation? you know you dont want to learn any of the third party engines. Don't knock it until you've tried it. I will like other use miniB3D until it arrives for the simple reason that its a syntax and structure that I am comfortable with. and requires very little if any retraining. Why would you even want to switch at all then? Surely if your objection to "trying something new" is that it would be "trying something new" then I wager Max3D is really going to piss you off. Lets face it, how many people could point me in the direction of an Indie game that uses some of the things TV3D has or Ogre has that cant be done with Blitz. Everyone. Heard of "World of Warcraft"? I don't think I have seen anything yet, from any new engine that I have thought, oh thats nice, cant do that in blitz. Believable water, reflections, refractions and shadows that don't kill your framerate. Think that was a cheap shot? Here's an even cheaper one: A single surface terrain/sprite system that uses more than 64K odd polygons. Here's an even cheaper one: a Terrain engine that doesn't suck. There are hundreds of limitations like that which you run into when using Blitz3D - I can only imagine the reason you haven't, is because you're not trying hard enough. |
| ||
| Nope, both loose situations These are all the reasons that it doent matter to you. Your statment wasnt, does it really matter to flameduck. I still don't understand why learning TV3D is a lose situation? you know you dont want to learn any of the third party engines. Don't knock it until you've tried it. |
| ||
| I'd be fun to see more communication between BRL and it's customers. We have no clue what's going on. |
| ||
| What is BRL actually working on now? |
| ||
| It's the total and utter lack of updates There's been plenty of updates. We have no clue what's going on. Why do you care? BRL = 2 years of nothing. We recently got an OpenAL Audio driver for instance. I wouldn't call that nothing. What is BRL actually working on now? An improved IDE, better audio support and Max3D from what I understand. |
| ||
| I have to agree with FlameDuck. BRL is doing updates and what-not behind the scenes. Apple does the same thing wth its customer base. They wait until the time is right to mention what they are getting ready to release. I also don't think that learning a technology that you may replace later a waste of time. At the worst case scenario, you learned that technology and decided to move on to another one. You picked up tid bits that could possibly transpire to the next technology, or even to something else you can use later. Seriously, programmers are MEANT to learn and explore technologies. They are by default trying to implement the technology that suites their particular app need. I go through many different technologies in a year. Why? because each one offers something the other doesn't. Eventually I decide which best fits the need. Is it a waste of time? NO. I spent time evaluating what I need to move forward with to solve the need for the project. Unfortunately, people purchase a technology and think it should be their "end-all" technology. In reality, it may only solve 60% of their needs. I understand the need for software continuity, and even the need for something stable. We all want this going into an investment with our purchases and time. I've even gone through MANY 3D APIs, but the end decision is always the same. Does it offer what the project needs? If it answers yes, then that's the API for the project. Who cares that you review and sink time into making that decision? You might personally, because you (using it loosley, not directly towards anyone) look at it as the time it took to do something. I look at it as an investment like FlameDuck stated. If you spend 6 months learning an API and then later decide to move onto another API, fine. You learned it and moved on. Otherwise, you spent 6 months learning the API you decided to use, and can continue progress with it. HOW IS THAT A LOSS? |
| ||
| I'm beginning to think LeadWerks' engine IS Max3D. |
| ||
| It's hilarious that we all think we have some kind of right to expect or demand that BRL be doing anything at all in the future. Like, now they owe us? |
| ||
| One thing to keep in mind here is that most of the aforementioned Modules have been Written IN BlitzMax. That is a shining testament to the power and versatility of the language. BlitzMax is not perfect (no language is!) but is general enough to be used for many types of applications yet specific enough to be a great solution for games and graphics. miniB3D is written in 100% blitzmax. source is included for you to learn from. take a look in the bugbin, Mark has been bug hunting solidly for a long time. that is a very good sign. there is generally a tradeoff between stability and feature-richness. BRL tends to err on the side of stability and I think that is great. All the eye-candy in the world is not going to matter when things don't work. |
| ||
| It's hilarious that we all think we have some kind of right to expect or demand that BRL be doing anything at all in the future. Like, now they owe us? Yes! We bought and paid for their product! They owe us proper support of their product. They owe us documentation that thoroughly explains how to use their product. Whether they choose to create Max3D or not is up to them. But that *is* one of the selling points they mentioned two years ago that helped convince me to buy BMAX. |
| ||
| Yeah, dammit, I paid 80 bucks. Surely that buys me more than 18 months of regular updates, a whole bunch of additional modules that were never mentioned, constant bugfixes, support, help, a maintained forum, etc. Where's my elephant? |
| ||
| I'd settle for a comprehensive users manual. |
| ||
| Yeah, dammit, I paid 80 bucks. Surely that buys me more than 18 months of regular updates, a whole bunch of additional modules that were never mentioned, constant bugfixes, support, help, a maintained forum, etc. Yea, I wanna 'nother theme for the webpage ;( |
| ||
| I understand that specific things may have brought people to the product. Max3D for instance (which I, personally don't care if it comes to fruition or not) has been a very HOT issue over the past couple years since BlitzMax debuted. Sure. It would be nice I guess, but at the same time, there are several other APIs that do the same stuff. I don't recall ever being promised it would be here. And when or if it does, I am NOT entitled freely to it. Same with MaxGUI. People eagerly awaited it. BRL stated it was being worked on. Time passed and eventually it showed up. Maybe Max3D will, maybe not. I realistically wouldn't worry over it either way. NOTE: I am describing my own personal feelings. Yours are free to be different. My point is the BlitzMax was designed for the user community to extend it in ANYWAY they feel beneficial to their needs. That alone attracted me. Each of us have our own reasons for coming to this language to use it however we intend. The fact is you can make what ever you need. If you do not feel like it, then either wait it out and see if BRL will or some 3rd party does. TrueVision3D is capable of being utilized in Max. Granted, it's Windows only. OK. So you say you need it cross platty. GREAT! Don't use TV3D. Look for another. miniB3D is one that can. Don't like it? Fine. There's another option out there. Look and you'll find it. Ask a few questions on the forum if you need to know more of where. FlameDuck also provided another great point: OpenGL. Its readily available. BlitzMax actually HAD 3D capabilities builtin the entire time! It's right there. You gotta learn OpenGL, but them the breaks. So... You don't have time to learn OpenGL? Well, the option then becomes... Do I stay with one of the other options until a better one comes, or should I spend a few bucks on another language which provides 3D? I'm not intending on any sort of sarcasim should you have read that from this. It would be nice if certain things came with the product at the time we purchased it or shortly thereafter. The real fact is its not up to us. When we purchased the product, we knew these limitations (at least I realized it). The demos are there to provide insight to the product. You take a gander at it then and if you like and accept what you see, you decide to purchase or not. If the company decides NOT to include something or do include something, thats up to them. We can complain, and MAYBE they'll do different later. In the end, they only owe us what we paid for. I agree I would LOVE to have a manual. Need a tutorial? Wave (if memory serves me) wrote a tutorial on BlitzMax... There's also the one Sloan Kelly wrote "Games Programming for the Absolute Beginner". Don't forget the rest of the tutorials on the forums! |
| ||
| I hate doing it now cos I think he can be overly critical at times, but I have to agree with flame duck as well. There has been a lot of updates, a lot of progress, and very few major bug problems that didn't get fixed fast. Considering the fact the mark is almost a one man team, with mabey 1 or 2 others helping him out, he has done some amazing work, and the fact that he said in his last log that he is having trouble with the 3D side of things does not bother me at all it simply shows that he is not willing to just shove out a halfdone half baked in 3D module, he wants stability, he wants power, and I dont think we will get it until he is happy that he has acheived this in some way. I am happy to wait for it. Thing is, I like marks style, I like his syntax and I love his naming conventions for blitz/max, it suits me and how I code, I could go and code my games in c++/c# hell I could probably go get XNA and use that, I Chose to stay here and use blitz because I like it. thats also the reason I don't like the idea of using other 3rd party 3D Engines, its not that they are bad. simply that they don't feel right, I don't like the function names or something else just does not feel right about it. The most important thing for me in programming and development, is that it should feel right, it should be easy to read and should feel comfortable coding, and thats exactly what Mark provides for me. I also have to agree with some others, @Mark, I know your going to be reading this, I know that you keep a close eye on the forums, I also know that the reason you try not to post is because anything you say tends to get taken as gospel and people moan when it does not happen, but, I think posting every now and then anyway would restore faith even if you have to put up with the people making assumptions about your posts. why not just put "This is my opinion and not that of BRL" at the bottom of your posts or something, only takes 2 minutes to post. ;) |
| ||
| .. |
| ||
| Why do I care?!?!? This is not a hobby for me, I make a living programming.. Brings food on my table.. This is what I don't understand. Why base your business on a product that doesn't do what you want? Why base your *current* business on something that a product might do in the future? Why base your current needs on something that, even when available, might not do what you want? What is it you're expecting Max3D to do that will put food on your table? What products do you have planned that need Max3D (specifically) to put food on your table? What is Max3D going to do that one of the other engines or available products doesn't? |
| ||
| What a fantastic Idea. I will pay $80.00 for a downloadable, hobbyist software product and somehow manage to make an entire living off of it. Amazing! If you feel cheated now, It is probably best for you to look elsewhere. If I was to base my livelihood on programming stuff, I think I would be learning a slightly different set of skills (i.e C#, Python, Java, C++ ) When it comes out, Max3D will probably disappoint you. I will be pleased with it as I am with ALL of the blitz products I have bought. Blitz3D is excellent Maplet is kinda cool BlitzMax is excellent MaxGUI is pretty cool (I just have not done much GUI stuff) I love miniB3D. my 6 year monetary investment= 210.00 that comes to about $2.00 a month. |
| ||
| Why do I care?!?!? This is not a hobby for me, I make a living programming.. So do I, as I'm sure others do as well. What's your point? I make a comfortable living coming up with solutions to other peoples problems. Currently most of that has been transitioning OPC stuff from VB6 to C# (.Net 2.0). Does this somehow give me the right to call Anders Hejlsberg and demand to know his future plans? Of course not - that would be absurd. For the amount of money it costs me to stay informed about recent developments in my particular field (OPC DA, OPC AE and .Net) I could buy a copy of BlitzMAX every day - and still have money left for beer and chips. You get what you pay for, and BRL is not in the B2B market - they don't have a corporate support option, and if they did, I doubt you would be able to afford it, considering what you expect of an $80 USD piece of software. No, there's been patches and re-jigging of the current tech.. that's it. Did you somehow not manage to read my comment about the OpenAL Audio Driver? In a certain tongue-in-cheek fashion I can appreciate your suggestion that switching to OpenAL is the best way to "patch DirectSound", but in all seriousness, the statement is absurd.Also I fail to see how someone who operates a business doesn't think improved reliability is a good thing. Maybe it's because in my field every hour of downtime costs my clients millions, and if my software fails, even for a second, there will be hell to pay, and I will need to switch to a different vertical market. Thought me a valuable lesson, don't base your business on uncertain technologies. The real lesson here is "do your research properly". There are only two things in this life with absolute certainty, death and taxes. In business there is always an inherent risk when making money, traditionally the greater the risk, the greater the money. Capitalism 101. |
| ||
| Well I think that after hope, comes disillusion and right after comes anger. I can understand it, I had the same while waiting for blitzmax ;) However as a professional programmer you should find a solution(good to know that there are solutions!) to your problem and complaining on these forums, isn't one which is very efficient. Join the minib3d or the TV3D efforts! (or the irrlicht, or the leadwerks, or the Flow/ogre, or ...). |
| ||
| .. |
| ||
| I ditched BMax years ago Well then... you *DON'T* care do you? BTW : Not sure that many of the 'fanboys' who responded cared that much that there was no 3d module still or even agreed with it. |
| ||
| Um, Mark Sibly could sort this out with a word? Any reason not too...? I know he does not HAVE to but it would be nice for all the folks who have supported BlitzMax (and him) by investing there money and faith into the original promise of a 3D engine. "None" would not be that bad, people would simply pool their resources into whatever 3D engine is the best instead of hesitating of which direction to invest there efforts into. |
| ||
| @TonyG I think most of the customers hoped it would come out at some point. |
| ||
| I've skim-read most of this thread, however it has highlighted those people who simply have no idea what they're talking about. The way I see it, if you've used Blitz3D in the past and are looking for a 3D solution like myself, you have several options available to you now: 1. Stick with Blitz3D (not as bad as you think!) 2. Move to Blitzmax with Minib3d (works well) 3. Use Blitzmax with TV3D 6.5 and Gabriel's wrapper (soon TV3D will be open beta - and currently works well) 4. Other engines I haven't bothered with yet Personally I think all of these options cater for every type of indie developer, e.g. casual, hardcore, etc. I'm agreed that it'd be nice to see a native 3D engine created by Mark in Max, but there's much more complexity to it than first meets the eye. You'd understand this if you actually try to create shaders or develop with any DX9 / DX10 engine. |
| ||
| Yes, and I agree with you Sonicfactory. It has way more involved when you build a 3D engine for even a single platform. Multiply that by 3 and ensuring each OS will respond in a similar fashion with the same commands. No easy task. A "good" 3D engine takes years with a full team full time on deck. mark is pretty much solo from my understanding. You re-iterated my points. :) I am perfectly happy with Max as it exists today. 2D is fun for me to mess around with. I also appreciate the needs others may have in wanting a 3D module officially released by BRL. I've even sunk my teeth into DX D3D. No easy feat that is. OpenGL seems more attractive IMHO. But just dealing with those APIs make you better understand and appreciate the work authors of any 3D engine provide. 2D is also included, even as "simple" as it appears. Again, you also lean towards the idea I posed earlier about programmers being creative and wanting to test out new technologies. You CAN do what you need with what exists currently in BlitzMax. Its a matter of do you want to proceed or not? |
| ||
| I always figured that if you had a job to do, you purchased the right tool to get that job done. No 3D module for Bmax you like? Use it for 2D, and buy something else that does what you want. You can't complain about having to relearn- relearning and computers go hand in hand. If you lack the time to learn something, don't. Just take what you have and use it to finish your project. Once that's done, learn what you have to for your next project, or redesign your project so you don't have to. I can see why some people want the 3D module they expected to be released, but... life doesn't always offer up what you want. If you have lemons, make lemonade, or go and buy some different fruit. |
| ||
| I bought BlitzMax because they said that afterwards they will work on and release Max3D. In the meantime i could learn how things work in BlitzMax and do some 2D stuff. Then there came no Max3D so i bought Unity. I now do have 3D. As for 3D with BlitzMax i'll be curious about gman's irrlicht module and maybe some day the official module. Maybe Flow will also be an option but in my situation i just don't feel this much after buying a 3D package for Max beside of the official one. And if i got it right and they rewrite the editor than i somehow don't see them working on 3D a lot at the moment. I suspect that a) it takes them a serious amount of time to come up with a proper and smooth 3D solution which also could be partly intention due to DX10 or they b) rethought their strategy and now want to build on an existing 3D engine as well and integrate such an engine as good as possible. But maybe 3D is even on a lower priority because they fully concentrate on providing a better 2D package (reworking BlitzMax, ARM support, Physics for 2D?, ...). But it was already clear in summer/autumn last year (can't remember exactly) that we won't see a 3D engine from BRL soon as Mark wasn't even sure about which SM he want's to support so ... My guess is that depending on the route they'll follow, a lot of months will pass until you'll see something. |
| ||
| Um, Mark Sibly could sort this out with a word? Any reason not too...? Because:1) He already has. 2) STFU might not go down too well with potential customers. I think most of the customers hoped it would come out at some point, it didn't. How do you figure that? When did "at some point" come to pass? Are we at the end of time? |
| ||
| Are we at the end of time? No it just feels like it. |
| ||
| 3. Use Blitzmax with TV3D 6.5 and Gabriel's wrapper (soon TV3D will be open beta - and currently works well) The problem here is cross platform compatability. I'm looking for something where I can take my source code from PC to Mac to Linux and compile with limitted *or no* source code changes. Like we can already do with Max2D. I think MiniB3D has that potential, but it doesn't support all the features yet. *YET* (I've been playing around with MiniB3D, and I think it's brilliant. Keep up the great work!) The only thing I can fault BRL for is poor documentation, and that they depend on their customer base to do the work for them, i.e. (BMax Wiki, MiniB3D, etc...). It's this kind of lack of support that is the reason BMAX will always be a hobby language, and not a serious indie game developer's tool. Look at the folks at The Game Creators (Makers of Dark Basic). Tons of support and supporting products for a far inferior (IMHO) programming language. |
| ||
| I'm waiting for the soon to be released 3d module for Cobra. |
| ||
| CoderLaureate, I agree that the documentation is minimal at best, and the user base helps out with the lack of the official docs. The best thing that can help with that is the community. Everyone that contributes adds to the ability for someone else to learn the language. I can't argue that there are companies out there that offer products that we feel provide less ability than BlitzMax, but seem to have proper documentation, a better IDE, or other stuff that is far more user friendly. I'm not sure if the intention on BlitzMax was to go above hobbist tools or not. I think if anyone has the desire to make it do so, then it will happen. By this, I mean any of the users of BlitzMax. BRL is the obvious first choice to drive the product in the direction it needs to go. Again, just pointing out stuff, not an arguement of these. The community takes the second seat, and is able to launch the language by using it, helping others out by any means possible, and releasing their own products which show off the capabilites to others whom potentially want to write apps with it. I also agree with you on the cross platform capability for an engine in Max. As I stated before, OpenGL is always available, but there is a cost of time writing an "engine" and learning it (if you don't already know it) In defense of BRL, The Game Creators has a larger team (from my understanding) than BRL. So to the extent of providing tools and documentation, documentation falls short. Even my own professional apps at work fall short in this area. We have 6 professional well seasoned software engineers full time working on projects. In fact, today I am "forced" having to play catchup on documentation. I'm not sure if the documents will get the proper attention from BRL that the users request from them. |
| ||
| Even my own professional apps at work fall short in this area. We have 6 professional well seasoned software engineers full time working on projects. In fact, today I am "forced" having to play catchup on documentation. LOL! I've been in that seat before. Fortunately we have some pretty excellent technical writers on staff here at the office now. Any how, sure TGC has a bigger staff. But they weren't always big. It's all about marketing, keeping people interested in your product (I still get the newsletters from TGC), and keeping them comming back for more. |
| ||
| I WISH we had technical writers! OH how I MISS them! Documentation is a nightmare. Always. I guess thats the difference between this business and the last one I worked in :| TGC does have a larger staff than it did in the days of the original DarkBASIC times. I constantly went between PureBasic, BlitzBasic, and DarkBasic back then. I chose DB (not pro... wasn't available then) because it was capable of 3D and B3D wasn't around yet. PureBasic seems too 'different' from basic to me, so even with its abilities, I stuck with what I got. When Max appeared, it was on :) |
| ||
| It's this kind of lack of support that is the reason BMAX will always be a hobby language, and not a serious indie game developer's tool. If that's true, and... Look at the folks at The Game Creators (Makers of Dark Basic). Tons of support and supporting products for a far inferior (IMHO) programming language. that's also true, then how come The Game Creators are the laughing stock? Surely one of your statements must be at the very least inaccurate. The only thing I can fault BRL for is poor documentation Well conventional wisdom says you should have your good programmers develop, and your mediocre programmers write documentation. Thus the only conclusion is that there are no mediocre programmers at BRL. It's all about marketing, keeping people interested in your product Except in that case it's probably more a case of "one born every minute". |
| ||
| Is BRL going to come out with an official 3D module or not? No. Not until you see otherwise. |
| ||
| that's also true, then how come The Game Creators are the laughing stock? Surely one of your statements must be at the very least inaccurate. That is merely a perspective... Besides, the two points you made have nothing to do with each other as support for a bad product has nothing to do with no support for a good product.. The point is still the support, not the product, or the overall image of the companies involved. |
| ||
| that's also true, then how come The Game Creators are the laughing stock? Surely one of your statements must be at the very least inaccurate. How are TGC a laughing stock? The only people who consider it a laughing stock are the studios who view anything that isn't C/C++ to be a laughing stock. So in that case, BMAX is a laughing stock too. Well conventional wisdom says you should have your good programmers develop, and your mediocre programmers write documentation. Thus the only conclusion is that there are no mediocre programmers at BRL. I think *all* the programmers at BRL are excellent! I have not once said anything negative about BMAX. I think it's the best version of an OOP Basic language to date. I have criticized their marketing, and documentation (in a constructive way). At my job I do a lot of work for the US Department of Defense. Imagine if I spent a year working on a big project for the Marines, then turned it over to them and said "Here ya go, you'll have to poke it with a stick to figure out how to use it." Do you really think they would come back to me with more work? Except in that case it's probably more a case of "one born every minute". That may (or may NOT) be the case, but atleast TGC is making sales, and supporting their users with thorough documentation. Dark Basic has a very noticeable presence in the industry. TGC has a lot of supporting documentation and tutorials that entice new programmers into wanting to learn more. I would *LOVE* to see that for BMAX. As a programming language BMAX is MUCH better than Dark Basic can ever be. |
| ||
| Someone mentioned DarkBasic!!! *Dabz digs out his hit hat and hides behind the sofa* Dabz |
| ||
| Don’t know if this is relevant to anything we should care about, but I saw mention of a ‘Blitz3DSDK’ in a recent Win32MaxGui update: ModuleInfo "History: 1.36 Release" ModuleInfo "History: Renamed internal bbLoadFont command to avoid conflict with Blitz3DSDK" |
| ||
| I wouldn't read much into that. Maybe skidracer accidentally used something he was working with in miniB3D and it went out? I dunno... |
| ||
| Heheh WEHEY!! Another time wasters posse thread. You've gotta laugh haven't you? I noticed CoderLaureate posted this exact same thread in the Blitzmax update forum some time ago but everyone ignored him. |
| ||
| No, this is that thread. It was moved here, for some reason. *shrugs* |
| ||
| I actually *did* post the message in the Upgrades section first. I figured since Max3D would be an upgrade to BMax that was the appropriate place to put the thread. Noone answered. Probably because people don't usually look in that thread until there's announcement of a new upgrade. So I reposted in BMax Programming. *Then* it was moved to general discussion. Which is probably where I should have posted it in the first place. ;) |
| ||
| The Game Creators has a larger team (from my understanding) than BRL TGC has 3 people - 2 programmers and an artist... The good think about TGC is that Mike and Lee get involved in most areas of the forums, and thus there presence is felt pretty much all the time. Personally, I took from Marks previous comments about an official 3D module, is that there wont be one - at all. |
| ||
| Actually what I find amusing about the comparisons with TGC is that the TGC forums are currently full of people complaining that they haven't heard from anyone in TGC about all the bugs in Dark Physics. I'd say no comment on bugs that make the software "unusable" was a lot worse than no comment on a 3d module in the future. |
| ||
| I'll say this, its very uncommon for a BRL update to actualy break everything you have done. And if it does, Mark at least tries to fix it. Having both DGSDK and FPSC, when TGC do update things they more often than not break eveything. (And up the Min Specs) |
| ||
| True, but at least they post quite often. Hopefully, with a Vista version of DBPro, Lee & Mike will learn from their previous mistakes and create a rather more bug-free (especially at the start) utility. |
| ||
| True, but at least they post quite often. I'm sorry. How is that in any way preferable to having a working product? Hopefully, with a Vista version of DBPro, Lee & Mike will learn from their previous mistakes and create a rather more bug-free (especially at the start) utility. Hahah. People said the same about DB Pro. Always reminds me of the saying that marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence, and second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience. |
| ||
| Heh, I keep mistaking TGC = Torque Gaming Community. |
| ||
| C4 is a way to go..excellent engine, and multiplatform too..and very cheap.. |
| ||
| Is BRL going to come out with an official 3D module or not? In case it's not noticed in other threads, Mark's just-updated worklog addresses this. The short answer is "Max3D is still in development, but will be moving in quite a different direction"; the long answer is at: http://blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1043 |
| ||
| heh, looks like some kind of competitor to Torque Game Builder and not at all the 3D API renderer we had hoped for the past 2-3 years. Still, gives the various 3rd party rendererd a good opportunity. Looks like there will be quite a few to choose from before long. |
| ||
| I am not active here any more so i'm not as plugged in to what is going on with Blitz or not. I've picked up from my ocassional surfing that other people have plugged into other engines, but i've not seen anything as a complete multi-platform product yet. Maybe I missed it from not looking close enough, does this mini-3d work on Mac aswell as PC? Why am I asking... By asking i've just breached user forum rule #1 ... there must already be an answer somewhere on this forum. The thing is there are a lot of forums on the internet, and all the forums with 3 or more people have users who say "why cant you use the search feature?" My asnwer is, "because it's human nature - and you could have found that out if only you'd used the search feature". So my question: Does this mini3D work on all platforms? Or is it Win only? I have to say as a Mac user i've found support for Blitz Max frustrating, it's one of the reasons I dont come here much. I do also use it for the PC though - but I dont get stuck as often as I do with a Mac. I'd also like an IDE that doesnt change tabs when I ctrl-left or ctrl-right. Again I could use the search feature, but then I also get a gazillion other posts for B+ and B3D too, or I might, in any case it's not in my nature. Actually that's a lie, I do use the search here quite a lot as that is easier than posting, but i'm building to something here. There's a lot of great modules, but unless you are plugged into the community there is no way of knowing where to find them. It's not my fault I dont know what to search for, i'm not here enough to know what words to search on. Is there a place that lets you look through completed expansions, like IDE's and 3D modules? Why am I asking... I should just search. |
   |