Indie game developer, Can you make a living?
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| Hi, The topic says it all. I am wondering how likely it is to become an indie game developer and make sufficient money to pay rent, food, internet connection etc... Do some of you guys, have some experience in that matter? Let's assume that technical and artistical skills are not a problem. Thanks |
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| Let's assume that technical and artistical skills are not a problem This is a fairly big assumption, a bit like "assume no air friction" in physics. Anyway, I'd say if you live with VERY low overheads and produce high quality games then *maybe* you'll scrape by, but the reality is most people won't make enough money at it which is why they do it alongside their day jobs. Some people (low %) do actually make a decent living but they are very experienced/skilled/lucky. That's what I think anyway :-) |
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| Forget technical and artistic skills. You should have : - A flair for creativity - The ability to deliver a finished product - A fair degree of business acumen - A realistic expectation of the potential earnings - A mid/long term strategy - A bucket full of luck - A lot of patience If you want to get into the business because it sounds cool then forget it, you'll get disillusioned very quickly. |
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| I know of a handful of indies worldwide that make a living without having a day job. They are very much the exception. It helps if you have a back catalogue of work to sell, a reputation to go with it, and some spare cash to buy/sell other indies games. |
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| Thank you both for your answers. I agree with you creativity, luck and business skills are keys to success here. But for the cool factor, it can't be as bad as my job today. :-) Between 2D and 3D games, what do you think sell most? I guess my real question is: what is the "profile" of the person who buy an indie game, instead of a not so new super production for 20 bucks. Thanks for sharing your experience. |
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| The topic says it all. I am wondering how likely it is to become an indie game developer and make sufficient money to pay rent, food, internet connection etc... About 1%. Between 2D and 3D games, what do you think sell most? Whichever is most fun. what is the "profile" of the person who buy an indie game, instead of a not so new super production for 20 bucks. There isn't one. What matters is which market segment you chose to focus on first, and then agressively market that. (Marketing != promotion). |
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| GFK had a good crack at this. It's definitely worth talking to him before making any big decisions imho... |
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| 3D games are a lot more work and will never looks as "pro" as AAA shelf titles unless you invest serious money. |
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| Mystic in is sold in about 10000 copy, Zuma even much much more..each one is 20 us$ if I am not mistaken and it means its about 200 000 US$ for Mystic Inn..regarding info I saw on BigFishgames web site, I think many of games over there making this profit, so, its up to artists whos working on title I think (regarding playability-nice looking game)... |
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| Thank you guys for your inputs. There is indeed no definite rules about what a successful game need to be. I guess the important thing is that there is definitively a market for indie productions. People do buy games if there are fun, no matter how much money has been spent to create it. I find this thought very encouraging. I am also gonna check out Mystic and Zuma. It will give me, good examples of successfull indie productions. Do you guys know any others indie titles that sold pretty well? |
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| People do buy games if there are fun, no matter how much money has been spent to create it Regretably this may not be true because the game needs to have up to date graphics otherwise the portal punters won't even bother to download it to see if the game is fun, and many don't read reviews on indie game sites either. |
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| ...well, you'd do well to check out Ambrosia. They've been at this for ages, though they do more than just games. http://www.ambrosiasw.com/ If I recall correctly, Andrew Welch (founder of Ambrosia, author of Maelstrom) makes a modest living off it. |
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| Sadly the indiegame/casual market is saturated with Match3, Puzzloop and Tapper clones - these types of games are also the staple on the major portals. If you look at Mystik Inn, if it only made $200,000 then it's probably running at a loss. This demonstrates that even a very well produced clone will find it difficult to earn a decent return on investment. Thankfully there is life outside of portals and a lot of money to be earned - think big and license with one of the major infrastructure partners and you can't go wrong. |
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| You've heard of Darwinia right? On the shelves, got a 8.8 out of 10, won the independent gamers award? Yup, thats proof right there that you could pull it off. Heard about it on GameDev.net and then saw it on all the shelves. |
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| Dint sell very well tho did it? Half those boxes are still there on discount. Dont get me wrong I bought it, Im just saying that without the big marketing it still didnt sell very well evn tho it got good reviews. |
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| You've heard of Darwinia right? Dint sell very well tho did it? I remember reading an interview with the author. They said it didn't make any money until they got it on Steam. Now apparently it's made enough money for them to self fund their next project, Defcon.To add to the original question though. I think only those indies that run everything like a proper business have any chance of financial success. And even then lots of hard work and a little luck is needed. |
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| How about people who are doing OK making non-game related stuff? It might not be as exciting but if you can find a niche... |
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| "On the shelves, got a 8.8 out of 10, won the independent gamers award? Yup, thats proof right there that you could pull it off." Success is measured in different ways. Making a living is measured by if you can survive from the sales. As far as that being proof, it's not. Awards/reviews typically are not in proportion to a sales figure. A game may get 5 star reviews and all the awards possible but it doesn't mean that it is selling a lick. A game could also get horrible critic reviews and not win any awards and bring in a notable amount of revenue. |
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| How about people who are doing OK making non-game related stuff? It might not be as exciting but if you can find a niche... Well, writing web apps for businesses, you could charge more for each license you sell than you would probably make in total from selling an indie game. |
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| I do belive that if you produce something whats a far better graphics than typical puzzles and similar bunch of clones as well as game idea itself, you can make good money, but it will cost you some money for production and its not just few hundreds US$ if you wanna do really serious stuff (regarding tools, artists, sound, etc).. |
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| I'm hoping Entropy will pull enough sales to get me started. My artist and I agree we went a little overboard with it, but we're hoping that will let us make a fairly good splash with our first release. The next two planned titles will be a good deal simpler as far as creating them goes, but should still be very good games, especially for the indie market. I just couldn't bring myself to start out with yet another pong, pacman, tetris, or space invaders clone :-) Not that I couldn't do a really good one...ok, getting that idea out of my head right now... |
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| Nennig, with your type of question, you should consider checking out the IndieGamer forum at: http://forums.indiegamer.com/ |
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| Nennig, with your type of question, you should consider checking out the IndieGamer forum at: forums.indiegamer.com/ Make sure to take a very large handful of salt with you.A lot of people (like here, really) tend to enjoy spouting hot air having never created anything of actual worth. Not having a go at anybody in particular, just don't believe everything they tell you there. |
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| [quote name="GameBoy"] gameBoy; Well, writing web apps for businesses, you could charge more for each license you sell than you would probably make in total from selling an indie game. [/quote] Developing custom software (or customizations) as a consultant/freelancer for small/medium companies are profitable. If you have the skills, then thats instant cash. I havent had a effort at game creating yet, but reading from the aforementioned posts u can better do a dayjob in project management and/or C# dotnet consulting. Developing a game from scratch wont allow you to buy a bread after 30 days of coding. Consulting does. I know a few C# consultants with no affinity for games but they do earn a big buck. Code your packman-clone in your after-hours time, stay at your dayjob. Unless any1 have other advice? |
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| Unless any1 have other advice? It doesn't matter much whether you chose to do business applications in C# or Indie games in BlitzMAX. The chances of success are roughly the same. What's important is that you have a plan, and understand the dynamics at play. If you haven't tried either before, my suggestion would be to get a 'real' job until you have enough experience and insight into your target market segment.Coding your indie game after hours is probably not a really good idea, if your day job is also code oriented. Rather than ask on various forums, I think it would be better to maybe read some books about it. On the marketing side, I can recommend "Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey A. Moore (and his subsequent books too), on the organization front Dan Irishs book "The Game Producers Handbook" is also a pretty good read. |
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| Find your niche and service it well. As an indie developer, whether you're developing a business app or a game, there's no point in developing mainstream software that competes with with the big boys. By this, don't even think about writing the next Doom3 or whatever - as a lone or small team developer, you don't have the budget, the time the skills(?) or reputation to compete. Instead, find a small segment in which you are capable of developing a product to service in the shortest amount of time possible - this way, you can build your own reputation and expand on the market at a later date. |
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| If you look at Mystik Inn, if it only made $200,000 then it's probably running at a loss. This demonstrates that even a very well produced clone will find it difficult to earn a decent return on investment. It all depends on where one lives. World does not begin and neither does it end with USA or UK. $200,000 would be considered a very large amount in many countries and would, indeed, make living for the developer rather easy and enjoyable. Average salary in my country is roughly $800, so an income of $200,000 would be greatly appreciated by any developer here. :) Barney |
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| It all depends on where one lives. World does not begin and neither does it end with USA or UK. $200,000 would be considered a very large amount in many countries and would, indeed, make living for the developer rather easy and enjoyable. Average salary in my country is roughly $800, so an income of $200,000 would be greatly appreciated by any developer here. :) Not if it cost you $250,000 to make the game or you have to make that to break even after paying all the staff costs. |
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| Barnabius: You're in Croatia right? $800? Is that per YEAR? What are the living conditions of people making that much? I mean, do they have electricity? Running water? Internet? Computers? Cause like $800 a year.. Living at the lower middle class level like I do here in the US, even I could afford to hire a team of six croatians to develop a game for that much. :-) But I don't see how you could import computers and sell them for that cheaply when they're talking about $100 laptops for Africa. So maybe you meant monthly income? Cause if you meant $800 a year those Serious Sam guys must run the country by now! |
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Well it looks like they have running water and electricity at least. :-) |
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| "Average salary in my country is roughly $800" That has to be monthly? If that figure is yearly, I'd highly recommend moving to another country :P |
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| The adverage earning in croata is about E180 an week, so E760 a mth. (But you can get a Bulgarian for E40 a week, so thats only about E2000 a year) |
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| $800 per year! LOL This is cultural differences at work. When we (Croatians) talk about salary it's always meant as monthly salary, while in the US is more natural to talk in terms of yearly salary. So, in Croatia it's around $800 per month. On $800 per year I don't think I would be able to afford a computer at all and would probably do something else in life. And yes, Shawn, we do have running water and electricity. :-) And we were using personal computers at the same time when the west was using them. I was programming IBM and HP mainframes way back in the early 70's and purchased my KIM-1 single board computer only a month after it was available in Germany. There was a small problem of smuggling personal computers into the country because communust government in its eternal wisdom did not allow people to import them but it just made it more fun. Smuggling various goods from the west was a national pasttime then... ;-) Actuaally... it is rather sobering when one thinks of all the people on this planet who are surviving on far less than $800 per year. More like $800 per decade. But that's another and rather sad topic to discuss... Barney |
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| Hey Barney..dont be frustrated becouse of posts you just read..Swifty is a good guy, just have to keep eyes open a bit more when talking about other countries like Croatia (do we have to update folks that Tesla was born in Croatia??) :)) so whatever, I like your country, I spend wonderful time of my life in Zagreb, as a student, and I know what is all about.. ;)) |
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| Barnabius: Okay, well that's interesting to know. $800 a month is $9600 a year. Over here an average salary is around $30K. And if you work in a tech job like the game industry, you can earn around $40K-$50K. Of course yearly salary doesn't mean anything by itself as far as living conditions go, because you could be paying a quarter of what I pay for food, rent, or internet access. Naighty: Heh, I didn't mean anything by what I said, I was just joking around cause $800 a year sounded nuts. I've seen photos of Croatia before. I did not know that Tesla was from Croatia though. :-) So what does a movie on DVD cost over there? I've used that before to try to get an idea of the different costs of living. Over here the average new release is $20. And I did a look around Amazon europe before and I think I found when I did the currency conversion that the cost per DVD in liek Britain or France, I forget which, came to around $30-$35. |
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| Hey guys, I am not frustrated at all. I know Swifty is a good guy. After all I am one of his customers. ;-) I took it all in a good stride and did not mean to sound harsh when I was answering. New DVD releases are between $25-$35 but you can get older movies for $5-$10 at newsstands. A pretty good value. DSL internet access (flatrate at 2 MBits/s) is $70 per month but the price is steadily (but not quickly) going down. I don't want to think how it was when commercial internet access was forst available, but now it's O.K. (at least for me). Barney |
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| Well that doesn't make any sense... You make a third of US average salary, but pay slightly more for DVD's and internet access? (6mb internet here is $50 a month.) I'd probably buy 25% of the number of DVD's I buy now if they cost twice as much as they do now. So you have to be saving money somewhere... How much of your salary goes towards taxes? Here it's about a third. And how much does it cost to rent a 1BR apartment? Here it's around $750 a month on average. Does the average person have a car? Over here it's about one car for every adult. If you do all have cars (For all I know everyone works within walking distance there, and it looks like you have narrow streets not made for driving.) how far do you drive on average to work each day? It's typical for someone here to have a commute of a half hour to an hour, and driving at 60mph that's 30 to 60 miles. What would a typical meal at a decent restaraunt cost you? Not a steak, but something average. Here it'd be between $15-$20. That's including tip. |
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| When I lived in China, I rented an apartment, ate out at restaurants every day, used taxies to get around, and shopped like crazy. If I'd wanted to, I could have employed a cook/cleaning woman too, but I felt uncomfortable with the idea of employing a "servant", so I didn't do this. I could do all of this for about £300 per month and still save money for a rainy day. |
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| When I lived in China Sounds a lot like New Zealand too. Except their Internet is expensive and crappy. |
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| How much of your salary goes towards taxes? Here it's about a third. I thought it was less than that in the US. In the UK there a various bands depending on what you earn but normally it's 23-25% for Tax and National Insurance (pays for the NHS and other stuff) |
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| 40% tax down this way (south africa), with perhaps the *cheapest* 512k ADSL in the world at around £100/month... :-/ And with the £/R spiralling away into a big hole I seem to earn less and less every month... So, yeah, if you don't mind walking everywhere (as you certainly wouldn't be able to run a car) and doing without internet, you could probably get by making indie games in south africa. Still, the food and the weather is great, so I can't complain... :-) |
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| Hmm... I think you guys have a completely wrong picture regarding car usage in Croatia. Obviously we can't compare to the US (1 to 1 ratio) but when I drive around it looks like everyone has a car and here in Zagreb the traffic congestion is just as bad as in any western city. Liter of petrol is around $1.50 and it never stopped us driving. :-) And to answer Swifty's questions: - The $800 I've mentioned was after taxes. It's much easier to discuss salaries that way as you don't have to worry about different tax groups. Taxes are 15%, 25%, 35% and 45%. - 1BR appartment would be considered two rooms apartment here and rent would be somewhere around $500. A single room apartment would cost you between $250-$350 depending on the location and age of the apartment. But you can't look at it from the same perspective as in the US. It's quite common to find up to three family generations to live in te same house or larger apartment and you must take into account that a lot of people are house owners so renting is actually the least prefered way of living here - I've already mentioned cars but to answer your question: yes, average person owns a car and you'll be amazed at the number of German produced cars running around - My commute is only about 10 minutes by car and 20 minutes if I take a tram. Which one I'll use depends solely on how I feel that particular day or what I have to do. Trams are quick and nice way of travelling the city if you use them outside rush hours. Otherwise be prepared to feel like a sardine in a (very) tight can :-) If you are unlucky enough to live at one side of Zagreb and have to commute all the way to the other side during the rush hour, expect a travelling time of an hour. - Quick meals will cost you anything between $3-$10. A decent restaurant meal will cost you $7-$20. After that, anything goes. In some restaurants you can easily pay $50 or more, especially if you drink bottled wines. Barney |
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| > I thought it was less than that in the US. For federal income tax it depends on the bracket, the highest bracket is 33%, and then on top of that there are state taxes which vary widely by state, from nothing at all up to 10% I believe. Then there are other city, state, and county fees - but I assume other countries have those as well. |
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| Barney, I found all of that interesting. Thanks for posting it. Why0Why |
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| Ahh...only a few years ago.... Lots of hot chicks in Croatia. I'm remember during my tour in the Marines when we stopped at Dubrovnik and Split. Unfortunately, we got banned from the local bars in Split when a couple of Marines beat up some locals for pulling a gun and knife on them at some bar.....ahh the memories. Had a great time there while it lasted though. Ok, continue indie gamer discussion. |
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| heh, I'm planning my next game now (cos the current one is nearly done) and trying to work out if I'll make a) a big loss b) little loss c) nothing d) small profit not worth it or e) OK profit, and of course f) loadsa money. Note how more of the options are negative than positive... |
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| Errr Grey, A and b are negative, c is neutral, d, e and f are positives. Thats 2 negatives and three positives. (Mind you I bet you've used a tolerance Variable that make c and d as negative) |
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| @Grey Alien: If I remember correctly your new game will be a platform scroller. Right? In that case just turn it into an add-on for your excellent game framework and you will definitely not loose money. ;-) Barney |
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| H&K: yep tolerance variable. c and d are not neutral because who wants to spend two months working full-time for nothing or very little. see ;-) Barnabius: No it's a match-3 game. The plaform engine was going to be done part time but I haven't had any spare time :-( Maybe I'll do it in the winter as I *really* want to do it and add it to the framework as you say (thanks for the compliment btw) |
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| So Grey, you were looking forward to hearing more about my Space Beetle game, what do you think of the art I posted in the graphics forum EH? :-) |
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| ah I never look at the forum, going there now ... |
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| we do have running water and electricity. :-) Dont be offended Barnabius I have been asked by an American if in Milan , the water from the tap is potable :-) |
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| That question was probably asked because tap water in Mexico, which is ADJACENT to the U.S. is not potable to U.S. folks. |
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| That question was probably asked because tap water in Mexico, which is ADJACENT to the U.S. is not potable to U.S. folks. It's all relative -- compared with tap water in Northern Europe, US water is plain nasty. Might as well drink bleach straight from the bottle. |
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| Off topic... (again) <sigh> |
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| The topic says it all. I am wondering how likely it is to become an indie game developer and make sufficient money to pay rent, food, internet connection etc... Very unlikely... I'm sure that some minor googling will unearth a ton of horror stories from people that tried exactly that, and failed miserably. Will you fail too? Not necesarily, but it is a major gamble, and not something you should think of lightly. As with any private business, you better make sure you have all your ducks in a row: have a solid business plan, realistic expecations, and be prepared to work your behind off. (That's all assuming you do indeed have what it takes, and can consistently create 'fun', high quality games) Keep in mind that even if you are successful it will still take a significant time before your investments (time, effort, money) will pay off -- so think long and hard before quitting your job chasing this dream -- more than likely, you'll depend on it to pay your rent, food, internet, etc. for a considerable time. However, if you ARE seriously committed to making this work, you could look into how much money you actually need to make ends meet, and see what you can do with that. Maybe you can switch to a part-time job, making just enough money to pay your way while also freeing up additional time to dedicate to your programming endeavours... Personally I'd try to get a good head start on things while having a full-time job on the site though -- have a steady, reliable income, and possibly also be able to put money to the side for when you need if you DO take the plunge later on. Just keep realistic, and consider the worst-case scenarios as well. Like they say, most business fail in their first year of operation... and I have a gut feeling that that percentage is conssiderably higher among indie game creators. |
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| Many thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts. I think, I may not be ready now for the plunge and will continue to use my leisure time to improve my skills. |
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| Maybe the point is that Indie programmers try to compete with commercial software houses thus they are bound to fail What about niches games ? I purchased MindRover by CogniToy some years ago A fantastic and original game, in my opinion They are still selling it, after so many years I suppose they paid back their developing cost |
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