Aurora 3D Engine Availiable now

BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/Aurora 3D Engine Availiable now

AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#1]
Aurora, the next generation 3d engine and additional components is out now for BlitzMAX.

here's a brief run down on just some of it's features.

https://gbp.swreg.org/soft_shop/50943/shopscr4.shtml


Full metal conflict. powered by Aurora


A next generation oop 3d engine, networking solution and physics api for BlitzMax. Supports Boned animation, texture shadows, Stencil shadows, environmental mapping, bump mapping, cel shading, full screen post fx compositors, bloom, depth of field,glass shaders, material scripts, post fx scripts.Full very powerful skinnable gui that runs in both in windowed and full screen mode. Very easy to use MaxGui like design with events and callback support.
Full support for Cg, HLSL and GLSL. Drivers for DirectX9 and OpenGL drivers. Full integration with ofusion 3d max pipeline for a truely next generation wysiwyg art pipeline. Full lua bindings and lua script engine to fully embed scripts into your applications with the full power of Aurora at your disposal. Full networking solution powered by the commercial BlitzNet Optica. Avi file support powered by MaxAVI. Two Physics solutions, Newton and Ode. Newton supports Convex hulls, prefabbed geo and full collision feedback. JV-Ode Bindings for jv-ode max owners to fully integrate ode into the engine. Camera Picks, Linepicks fully integrated into the newton physic engine. Debug view. View phyics. Free E-mail Technical support at no extra cost. Free updates for the life of the product. Mac/Linux versions to be released at a later date. Wrote in Visual C++ and BlitzMax for the best of both worlds.



A Demo will be uploaded soon, it is a demo of fmc the game I'm working on, build using aurora.

It's website will be online tomorrow morning.


LarsG(Posted 2006) [#2]
Can we get a demo?
Also, do you have a time schedule for the mac/linux release?


N(Posted 2006) [#3]
What about documentation? I see no mention of it.


Kanati(Posted 2006) [#4]
He's released like 83 things in the last week!! He's a madman...


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#5]
ooooooooooo... what about that studio license, does it let you make and sell all the programs that you can possibly imagine?

looks nice A... just what us anxious Blitzers need...

--Mike


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#6]
$40 seems very reasonable, but you can't expect anyone to buy it without at least telling us what the terms of the license we're buying are. Not all that bothered about the demo TBH, as I would be using for completely different purposes, but I would like know what the license is.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#7]
It's nice and has full support for the ofusion scene loader if your a 3dsmax user. So all visuals can be controled in max, including animated lights, and setting up shadow casting types, and turning on and off cast shadows etc. Anyway if your a max user its REALLY good.

Supports exporting of subanims with loops, so you can set up seperate loop ambient anim sequences like UV's and lmni lights, or transform anims that run at different speeds and it all works great :)


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#8]
Ofusion 3dsmax exporter info Here :)

http://ofusion.inocentric.com/


Amon(Posted 2006) [#9]
Oooh. Just purchased. For anyone interested they add vat so you end up paying £47 in total.

Now gimme da Engine. :)


ckob(Posted 2006) [#10]
theres no website for it or screenshots and no information about it whats so ever? I want to see sample docs, sample code, EULA and features list before I even think of buying it.

Edit: $72.00 USD ermm tell me what your engine has that the free ones do not?


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#11]
Oh, and I'd want to know if full source is included.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#12]
Can we get a demo?
Also, do you have a time schedule for the mac/linux release?

Demo will be released pending approval of the other people working on it. If they say no I'll write a new demo using my own media. In fact I'll do that anyway, can't hurt to have more than one demo.

He's released like 83 things in the last week!! He's a madman...

I'm not mad.(Neither am I.)


ooooooooooo... what about that studio license, does it let you make and sell all the programs that you can possibly imagine?

looks nice A... just what us anxious Blitzers need...


The license is unrestricted. You may sell a thousand commercial apps with it or just one sharewhere app. No royalties or other licenses need to be bought.


but I would like know what the license is.


See above :) No restrictions.


or screenshots and no information about it whats so ever?



Not to question your x-ray vison but there's both info and a screenshot in this thread :)

Oh, and I'd want to know if full source is included.


It includes C++ and bmax source. The C++ source is a dll.(Two in fact) and the blitz source is a oop interface to that dll. As well as other blitz stuff like lua bindings, blitznet optica etc.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#13]
To show how easy the engine is to use, here's a barebones wasd fps viewer.

Strict
Import Dsi.Aurora

Local Display:TDisplay = TDisplay.Create()
Display.OpenScreen()


Display.ShadowMode( Shadows_StencilAdd )
Local Sl:TSceneLoader = New TSceneLoader

Sl.LoadBest("scene.OSM")


Const FPS#=30
Local period#=1000/FPS
Local time#=MilliSecs()-period

Display.ShadowMode( Shadows_StencilMod )


'---- Scene Set up
Local Camera:TCamera = TCamera.Create()
TGui.Init( Camera )

Local InputDevice:TInput = TInput.Create()
Local elapsed#

Local ticks#,tween#
Repeat
	Repeat
		elapsed=MilliSecs()-time
	Until elapsed
	ticks=elapsed/period
	
	';fractional remainder
	tween#=Float(elapsed Mod period)/Float(period)
	
	For Local k=1 To ticks
		time=time+period


	camera.pitch( -inputdevice.mouseyspeed() )
	camera.yaw( -inputdevice.mousexspeed() )
	If inputdevice.keydown(KEY_W)
		camera.move(0,0,-1)
	End If
	If inputdevice.keydown(KEY_S)
		camera.move(0,0,1)
	End If
	If inputdevice.keydown(KEY_A)
		camera.move(-1,0,0)
	End If
	If inputdevice.keydown(KEY_D)
		camera.move(1,0,0)
	End If
		captureInput()
		tgui.freeevents()
		tgui.updateEvents()
	Next
	Render3D()
		
Until InputDevice.KeyDown(Key_Escape)



Here's a slightly more complicated demo showcasing physics and fps movement, linepicks and camerapicks.

Local Display:TDisplay = TDisplay.Create()
Display.OpenScreen()

Local Light:TLight = Tlight.CreateOmni()
Light.Diffuse( 255,255,255 )
Light.Position( 0,30,0 )
Light.Specular( 0,0,0 )
TLight.SetAmbient( 128,128,128 )
Display.ShadowMode( Shadows_StencilAdd )


'---- Scene Set up
Local Camera:TCamera = TCamera.Create()
TGui.Init( Camera )

Local InputDevice:TInput = TInput.Create()
TPhysics.Init( Camera )
TPhysics.SetWorldSize( -1000,-1000,-1000,1000,1000,1000 )
Local Terrain:TEntity = TEntity.CreateMesh("terrain.mesh")


Local md:TMeshData =Terrain.CreateMeshData( "terrain.mesh" )
Print md.vertices()


Local Col:TCollider = TCollider.CreateStatic( Terrain )
Local GBody:TBody = tbody.Create( col,"Ground" )
gbody.attachtopivot( terrain )
gbody.setInertia( Tinertia.CreateCube( 0,1,1,1 ) )
Local Sky:TEntity = TEntity.CreateMesh("sky.mesh")

'--- Gun set up

Local Gun:TEntity = TEntity.CreateMesh("gun1.mesh")
Gun.scale( 0.05,0.05,0.05 )

'--- Set up barrels


gun.setmaterial( "Examples/BumpMapping/MultiLightSpecular" )

'---Target set up

Type Target
	Function Create:Target( x#,z#,xs#,ys#,zs#)
		
		Local out:target = New target
		out.ent = TEntity.CreateMesh( "target1.mesh" )
		out.ent.castshadows( True )
		out.ent.scale( xs,ys,zs )
		Local col:TCollider = TCollider.Createconvex( out.ent )
		out.bod = Tbody.Create( col,"Target" )
		out.bod.attachtopivot( out.ent )
		out.bod.setinertia( Tinertia.createCube( 0.5,2.5,6,1 ) )
		out.bod.setCenterOfMass( 0,0.2,0 )
		out.bod.enableGravity()
		out.bod.ActivateForceAndTorque()
		Local groundy#
		If traycast.cast( x,200,z,0,-400,0 )
			groundy = traycast.y()+1
		Else
			groundy=100
		EndIf
		out.bod.position(x,groundy,z)
		Return out	
	End Function
	Field bod:TBody
	Field Ent:TEntity
End Type

Local targets = 20
Local tars:Tlist = CreateList()
For Local j=1 To targets
	
	Local tar:Target = target.create(Rnd(-100,100),Rnd(-100,100),0.2,0.2,0.2 )
	tars.addlast( tar )
	
		
Next

Local GunFire:TSound = LoadSound("Media/Shot1.wav")
Local FireTime:TTimer = TTimer.Create(100)

'--- Player Vars. Normally would be a type but this is supposed to be an easy to understand demo so not here it ain't. 
Local playx#,playy#,playz#
Local xi#,zi#
Local cinc#
Repeat


	'update physics.
	For Local j=1 To 3
		tphysics.update( 0.1 )
	Next
	
	
	If inputdevice.mousedown( 0 ) 
		If firetime.clicked()
		
	
		If camera.pick( displaywidth()/2,displayheight()/2 )
			
			Local hx#,hy#,hz#
			hx = camera.pickx()
			hy = camera.picky()
			hz = camera.pickz()
			Local bod:Tbody = camera.pickBody()
			
			Local vx#,vy#,vz#,mag#
			vx = bod.x()-camera.x()
			vy = bod.y()-camera.y()
			vz = bod.z()-camera.z()
			mag = Sqr( vx*vx+vy*vy+vz*vz )
			vx = vx/mag
			vy = vy/mag
			vz = vz/mag
			Local strength# = 100
			bod.addpush( vx*Strength,vy*Strength,vz*strength )
			'bod.push( hx,hy,hz,vx*strength,vy*strength,vz*strength )
			TParticleController.Create( hx,hy,hz,"Examples/Smoke",250,1000 )
			
		EndIf
		PlaySound gunfire
		EndIf
			
	Else
		firetime.reset()
	EndIf
	TparticleController.UpdateAll()
	
	'Check to see where the player should be on the terrain.
	If traycast.cast( playx,10,playz,0,-100,0 ) 'cast a ray
		
		playx = traycast.x()
		playy = traycast.y()+4
		playz = traycast.z()
		
	EndIf
	'position and rotate camera based on player input
	camera.position( playx,playy,playz )
	camera.pitch( -inputdevice.mouseyspeed() )
	camera.yaw( -inputdevice.mousexspeed() )
	
	If inputdevice.keydown( Key_W )
		Camera.TFormVector( 0,0,-0.2 )
		xi:+Camera.TFormedX()
		zi:+Camera.TFormedZ()
	EndIf
	If inputdevice.keydown( KEY_A )
		camera.tformvector( -0.05,0,0 )
		xi:+camera.tformedx()
		zi:+camera.tformedz()
	End If
	If inputdevice.keydown( KEY_D )
		camera.tformvector( 0.05,0,0 )
		xi:+Camera.tformedx()
		zi:+camera.tformedz()
	End If
	If inputdevice.keydown( KEY_S )
		camera.tformvector( 0,0,0.2 )
		xi:+camera.tformedx()
		zi:+camera.tformedz()
	End If
	
	xi:*0.9
	zi:*0.9
	playx:+xi
	playz:+zi
	
	'determine gun's position
	camera.tformpoint( -1,-1,-3 )
	
	gun.position( camera.tformedx(),camera.tformedy(),camera.tformedz() )
	
	'Determine gun's orientation
	
	gun.setquat( camera.getQuat() )
	
	
	Render3D()
	CaptureInput()
	tgui.freeevents()
	tgui.updateevents()
	
Until InputDevice.KeyDown(Key_Escape)



Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#14]
The C++ source is a dll.(Two in fact)


Compiled in what? Will anything I write with Aurora reqire the .Net Framework installed then?


N(Posted 2006) [#15]
And what about the documentation, Antony?


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#16]
I compiled it in VC2005

Can't seem to molebox the demo at the mo, so I might make a video. All proceedings from the engine go to ant, and I don't want to give our game away, so Ant might have to make his own demos for you guys to play with.

Did just throw together a quick streaming video though of the game we started working on alongside developing the engine.

http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/FMC1.wmv

Its basicaly the old B3D versions graphics, only the ground is done with a single pass 3 texture unit material. And the whole level has dynamic stencil shadows.

FMC1.wmv


Pax(Posted 2006) [#17]
Hi, I have a couple of questions:
a) Does Aurora support all ogre classes + functions? For instance, does it have all the scene managers? If so, up to what version? (is it Dagon based?).

b) are samples + manual included or this currently stands "as is"


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#18]
If you take out the 3dsmax scene manager it will render ok with the VC 7.1 compiler, I had to use VC8 in order to get the max stuff in. It is Dagon based yes, Maybe a little premature since it's only RC1.

You will have to ask Ant about how complete it is, he's pretty much the C++ wizard and done nearly everything there.

Our plan with the engine was for Cygnus and I to help support ant with developing a decent engine, it's his baby really though, but if we can help him when it gets tough I really think he might actually finish something good for once.

It currently stands as is, Cygnus and I wanted to wait till the game was further along before we released anything. But there was a bit of a crisis on ants side of things which might otherwise have resulted in him losing access to the internet. So he's been working furiously trying to make it availiable to the community earlier than originaly planned.

Currently Cygnus and I are primarily working on the game, and ant Technology.


N(Posted 2006) [#19]
So... documentation? You've clearly worked with it, Evak. So is there any documentation?


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#20]
Looks very promising. What's the situation with the documentation????


ozak(Posted 2006) [#21]
Is there a featurelist anywhere?

Edit: Doh! I see it now :)


N(Posted 2006) [#22]
It's conveniently mixed in with the product description.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#23]
there isn't any documentation at the moment. Off the top of my head the biggest thing that some of you won't like is that we havent yet managed to intergrate Bmax's graphical output into the ogre rendered screen.

So all 2D has to be done through the crazy eddie GUI system which ships with ogre.

Ogrenewt has been wrapped with ogre so you have access to Newton out of the box.

Ofusion sceneloader for 3dsmax has been integrated too.

Ant should really have prepared a feature list before releasing it to the public. A couple of extra days of preperation would have gone a long way to making it a more marketable product :(

Tried to warn him, but he's a stubborn young mule...


N(Posted 2006) [#24]
>there isn't any documentation at the moment.

Aaaaand that's a lost sale.


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#25]
I'll wait for documentation.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#26]

Compiled in what? Will anything I write with Aurora reqire the .Net Framework installed then?



Code::blocks + Vc2003 toolkit. So no net framework requierd. Evak's got a build of the dll compiling in vc2005 as well.

As for docs, as evak stated there are none atm, but there will be by tonight. I'm going to spend this morning writing them, so worst case scenario you buy now and have to wait a few hours.

but he's a stubborn young mule...


I hope that's a typo, yo.


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#27]
With no sign or word of BMAX3d (is it still being developed?) this software has huge potential. Please don't let the lack of GOOD documentation kill this product. :(


N(Posted 2006) [#28]
I'm going to spend this morning writing them


So there will be docs, but they'll be rushed and badly written?


TartanTangerine (was Indiepath)(Posted 2006) [#29]
Nice product Ant, it's a shame that people, including myself, will not take you seriously after the last fiasco. I'm willing you to prove me wrong.

Oh and will the OpenGL engine get compiled for and work on my Mac?

If you can get this working cross-platform, assure me that I won't be left high and dry if I make a commercial project with this, provide damn good docs and lower the price point to $40 I reckon you might have a deal.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#30]
So there will be docs, but they'll be rushed and badly written?

In a word, No.


Oh and will the OpenGL engine get compiled for and work on my Mac?



Soon. A mac(Or indeed linux) version just requires I compile it into a static lib and link to that. The only thing preventing me atm is a lack of either os. But I expect that to change soon.


Vectrex(Posted 2006) [#31]
well it's based off OGRE and newton/ode with full source so at worst you can fix/update things yourself :) Not to mention because of the OGRE base, most of the ogre manual applies directly, also the newton docs.

I never tried the last engine, but perhaps a discounted aurora licence to those 'left high and dry'? :)


Leiden(Posted 2006) [#32]
This looks pretty cool, Can't wait to see how the demo runs. Noel, your pretty quick to come down on this fulla when you hardly have anything better to show for.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#33]
I never tried the last engine, but perhaps a discounted aurora licence to those 'left high and dry'? :)


I have no records of who bought the last engine so that would be hard to offer :)


Can't wait to see how the demo runs


The engine is VERY fast if that's what you mean. On Evak's high spec pc, it runs at 300fps I'm told. That's with stencil shadows, physics and a pretty nice level model. Self shadowing too.
Shocking fast compared to b3d :)


IPete2(Posted 2006) [#34]
Aurora,

I have no records of who bought the last engine so that would be hard to offer :)


Unfortunately that is YOUR responsibility, and no one elses fault but yours. I reckon if you can think of a way for someone to prove they bought it - you may have a ready market, it does look impressive from the video.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#35]
The Api reference docs are complete, they cover every class, function and method and will ship with all following orders.

Unfortunately that is YOUR responsibility,


I know but in my defense we are going back almost 2 years. And I only sold 23 copies total so it's not like there's a wrath of people waiting to claim a discount.


Booticus(Posted 2006) [#36]
Cool about the docs! Waiting for my copy now! Might be fun to fiddle with!


N(Posted 2006) [#37]
Can we see the documentation?


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#38]
Can we see the documentation?


Docs are for developers only. Buy it you cheapskate. :)

HTmL docs are going to be produced within a few days for public consumption though, as I'm writing a doc generator as we speak. Don't anything too fancy, my html skills are not exactly amazing.


JaviCervera(Posted 2006) [#39]
Hey Antony, there already is a product named Aurora. It id a programming laguage developed by the author of IBasic, Paul Turley: http://www.ionicwind.com/


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#40]
Bah, he copied me. :P


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#41]
good luck with this Ant... and the team... great coming together of the minds, so to say... congrats on the release...


one q... can it be used with vc++ 6...

one comment... (and one more lil question)

this spinning mainloop oriented thing, in which function calls are crammed into the main loop... as indicated in the lil code segment above... is this the only way to do things in the engine...

i find this to be the one big drawback (ok, maybe two of the one big drawbacks) in my work with Blitz3d... there is really no way to insure timming continuuity, especially if a burst of new objects are created at runtime (particles, weapons fire, etc) using this method...

are there any callbacks available, or is it possible for the scene manager component (there is one, right?) to manage the redraw and code, and move the custom node functionality back to the class implementation...

--Mike


Alienforce(Posted 2006) [#42]
Ant... Is the engine complete or is it a EA ??


Chris C(Posted 2006) [#43]
the dll is a derived work of orge and covered under the LGPL licence, as such you are legally obliged to publically release the source code for the dll (but not the dll max wrapper), where can I download it?

£40 does seem very steep for a wrapper round a current generation 3d engine, exactly how have you made it "next generation" ?

Do you plan to donate a percentage of your take to the ogre project? how much?


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#44]

this spinning mainloop oriented thing, in which function calls are crammed into the main loop... as indicated in the lil code segment above... is this the only way to do things in the engine...

The spinning main loop orientated thing....am I supposed to know what that means? :)

Ant... Is the engine complete or is it a EA ??

I'd say it's complete enough to make a game, and it's growing every day.

Alot of cool things will be added over time to the already impressive feature list.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#45]
i dunno... if they haven't modded any of the ogre lib or dll, then they are clean... ogre is covered under whatever gpl...

--Mike


ckob(Posted 2006) [#46]
Ant: Despite the crap you did in the past I am willing to look the other way but I would like to see documentation and a price drop to $40.00 there is no way im paying $75.00 for a ogre wrapper when I can use one of the 4 free engines floating around that have documentation :p


Amon(Posted 2006) [#47]
When do I get the Engine? I purchased yesterday. :)

I have proof of purchase if needed.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#48]
This afternoon Amon I'd imagine. Most companies like SWREG say to give two working days and that's not an exception in this case. :)


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#49]
The spinning main loop orientated thing....am I supposed to know what that means? :)

...well, yesss :)

what i'm talking about is, with all update function calls stuffed into the main loop, objects only get updated once each cycle of the loop... which will inevitably vary, depending on how much work each function is gonna require... right...

what about a callback so that each object of a class can update itself at different times on a more regular 'schedule'...

take a look at the custom scene node tut on the irrlicht board...

is some sort of game.tic process available... or message dispatching system...

--Mike


Chris C(Posted 2006) [#50]
i dunno... if they haven't modded any of the ogre lib or dll, then they are clean... ogre is covered under whatever gpl...

Thay are only okay if they have only dynamically linked the dll with ogre libs, any statically linked code is a derivitive


exactly how has it "next generation" ?


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#51]
exactly how has it "next generation" ?


All your base are belong to me.


Amon(Posted 2006) [#52]
lol


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#53]
well obviously chris... static linking makes it part of your code, and therefore it can be seen as derivitve... as outlined in one of the *PL license statements (i think)...

undoubtedly, they'd know this... you do know this, don't you Ant ?

:)

about the mainloop question... anything...

--Mike


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#54]
It's not statically linked.

Callback features will be added Red. some elements like The net library already use callbacks.


Chris C(Posted 2006) [#55]
so its not next gen at all?, just a wrapper for ogre?


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#56]
Stop trying to stir up trouble. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's a simple choice.


Haramanai(Posted 2006) [#57]
I think it's the third wrapper of orge for blitz max but none of them was ever been open for the community.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#58]
calm down Ant... c'mon now...

while chris is obviously trying to raise all sorts of negatives, i dunno what his goal is... i can see where he is coming from with his question...

lets stop and think for a second... everyone likes to call this and that an 'engine'... Blitz3D is and engine... DarkBASIC is and engine... BMax is anEngine, TV3D is an engine.. and so on...

but, really now... what is an engine... stop and think... in it's generic definition, an engine is something that you can turn on, and it does something when you press the throttle (or whatever)...

applying this simplified definition to game 'engines'... this is exactly why i see that none of the above mentioned as being any sort of engines at all... they can't be turned on... they can't do anything... as they are, they offer functional alternatives to an more complex and work intensive set of apis...

the only ones i've worked with so far, that i see as being actual game 'engines', are Torque and irrlicht (rendering engine)...

... and, accept it or not, you code examples above seem to indicate that Aurora is not in the same ball park as either... Aurora does appear to be more of a lib of functions, or a wrapper.

now this does not denegrate Aurora, or is not meant to bring it down at all... i think it will be a great tool for BMax...

take a look at the main game loop from your code examples above, then look at the main loop from the simple irrlicht hello world example...

	/*
	Ok, now we have set up the scene, lets draw everything:
	We run the device in a while() loop, until the device does not
	want to run any more. This would be when the user closed the window
	or pressed ALT+F4 in windows.
	*/
	while(device->run())
	{
		/*
		Anything can be drawn between a beginScene() and an endScene()
		call. The beginScene clears the screen with a color and also the
		depth buffer if wanted. Then we let the Scene Manager and the
		GUI Environment draw their content. With the endScene() call
		everything is presented on the screen.
		*/
		driver->beginScene(true, true, SColor(255,100,101,140));

		smgr->drawAll();
		guienv->drawAll();

		driver->endScene();
	}


can you see here the 'engine' here... the irrlicht device is the engine, and albeit, while it's only a rendering engine, it does quite a bit of work managing the components that are coded in and now are part of the engine by the developer... it's a true engine...

once the irrlicht device is 'turned on', it is running...

there is no Aurora device to turn on... Aurora doesn't appear to manage any aspect of the game code... in fact, the coder has to write whatever 'engine' he/she needs, using the Aurora functions and datatypes provided...

i'm assuming that OGRE is doing something under all this, but i don't know enough about OGRE to comment on it...

if Aurora were a game, and it exposed functionality for extending itself and modifying itself, then it would be more correctly termed an engine... at least that's how i see things...

correct me if i am wrong here... i'm by no means an expert on this sorta stuff... but at the very least lets take it easy on each other...

but what we have here is a good thing... Aurora is a big plus for BMaxers... isn't it...

Ant, you've gotta rise above all this... you've gotta learn that the customer, or potential customer, is always right... regardless... at any rate, this is too good to get bogged down in childish food fighting...

everyone take a time out :)

--Mike


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#59]
"Ant... Is the engine complete or is it a EA ?? "


I'd say it's complete enough to make a game, and it's growing every day.

Alot of cool things will be added over time to the already impressive feature list.


If you want my very honest opinion it is definately EA (Early adopters). You can make games with it, a lot of the core functionality is there. Input, transforms, simple timing limiting code, physics, raycasting, pics, Limited Gui and hud stuff, Collisions and physics, Sound via Bmax etc etc. most of the entity creation is there and so you can definately make simple games. Untested LUA?. Simple networking that has been tested only briefly definately suitable for simple MP, but not been pushed very hard.

Ogre3D takes care of all the areas that ant's old engines failed at, and its way more mature than any of his previous attempts. It also has very solid art pipelines, with 3dsmax support being the best I have seen anywhere, puts B3D pipeline to shame.

I'd say it is an engine, but one that requires a lot of support, and not hit the last 20% it hasn't been tested extensively and isn't going to cover all bases with only about 2 weeks of simple demo's, and what you saw in the video for FMC. It's definately capable of simple games, and demos. But it's going to need feedback and proper support from before I'd call it finished engine. He has made a good start though, and it is useable in its current state.

You can control much of it with regular bmax language, so its a lot like blitz3D. So your going to have to code a lot of things yourself, like AI etc.


Vectrex(Posted 2006) [#60]
just what DOES 'next gen engine' even mean? It sounds like it's just some made up term that no-one really knows the answer to, just like saying 'AAA game' :)
All I know is OGRE can display exactly the same amount of detail as Unreal 3 simply because it supports all hardware graphics features through shaders. I assume 'next gen engine' means more the complete logic setup that unreal has. Well I would consider it an engine because it ties together all the seperate elements. Even unreal is 'just a wrapper' to the Havok physics engine/DX graphics etc.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#61]
/me passes vectrex a brown paper envelope under the table.


ckob(Posted 2006) [#62]
I still havent had my questions answered :(


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#63]
Nice video.

But there are some problems:
- The light on the metalic thing above the hover has serious shadowing problems. That seems to be an engine problem ... either broken normals or something like that.
- The arch where the hover turns around has z-depth sorting errors (but I think that is just a design error none with the engine)


Vectrex: The unreal engine is a little more through its scene graphs and the like ... this algorithmic background makes the difference from API wrapper to and engine :-)


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#64]
Even unreal is 'just a wrapper' to the Havok physics engine/DX graphics etc.


hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa... weeeeeeeeeeee....

you obviously have never touched the code for the UnReal engine... but hey, maybe i'm wrong... could ya show me a lil proof of this... a lil code snip from the Unreal Engine's main loop...

wrapping the underlying functionality for DX/OpenGL is one thing... providing the management and control for rendering, networking, and yes, whatever physics lib it uses... plus, the management and control for game specific functionalities, well, that's the difference between an 'engine' and a non engine...

again i use irrlicht as a simple to see example...
while(device->run())
run... ya see, that's the key... an engine runs... a code lib does not...

this is why i said above that chris has posed a legitimate question...

i see nowhere in the examples above Aurora->device->run... or even RunAurora... how can it be an engine if it doesn't run...

can't you see that the guy/girl using Aurora is gonna have to write up their own game engine...

still and all... that doesn't take anything from the potential to aid game developers here that Aurora can provide... like i said before, this is a good thing...


--Mike


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#65]
yeah, the test level was quickly throws together and never originaly meant to be made public.

Ant's decision to sell the engine was a hasty one made yesteday morning, hence the lack of documentation and specs. I just thought it would help Ant if people could see something done with it other than him just posting code. The engine will display anything ogre does. There are many different types of dynamic shadows you can use in Dagon, depending on your scene and what your requirements are.

SHADOWTYPE_NONE = 0x00,
SHADOWDETAILTYPE_ADDITIVE = 0x01,
SHADOWDETAILTYPE_MODULATIVE = 0x02,
SHADOWDETAILTYPE_STENCIL = 0x10,
SHADOWDETAILTYPE_TEXTURE = 0x20,
SHADOWTYPE_STENCIL_MODULATIVE = 0x12,
SHADOWTYPE_STENCIL_ADDITIVE = 0x11,
SHADOWTYPE_TEXTURE_MODULATIVE = 0x22,
SHADOWTYPE_TEXTURE_ADDITIVE = 0x21,

the docs for Ogre will give you all the info you need as far as rendering goes.

You all know exactly what it is and just being difficult for the sake of arguement. It's basicly Bmax working in much the same way as Blitz3D does, A programming language with a renderer, physics and collisions etc plugged in, all ready to use with your favourite game programming language. The rest is up to you.


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#66]
Erm that with the run is a little situation dependant. ->run makes only sense if the engine runs in its own thread but thats a little tricky with BM as this would break the garbage collector. (hope this will change even if we must use mutexes)


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#67]
Erm that with the run is a little situation dependant. ->run makes only sense if the engine runs in its own thread
that is exactly what disqualifies it as being an engine...

but thats a little tricky with BM as this would break the garbage collector.

you can run irrlicht apps coded in BMax, and it doesn't seem to break anything... irrlicht apps also can be coded in .NET languages, and the clr is famous (infamous) for it's internal garbage collection... and there doesn't appear to be a problem there either...

i think Evak has given us what looks like a solid definition of where Aurora is at currently...

--Mike


N(Posted 2006) [#68]
Docs are for developers only. Buy it you cheapskate. :)


How am I supposed to know they're any good then?

Cipher has sample documentation.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#69]
that is exactly what disqualifies it as being an engine...


You couldn't be more pedantic if you became the mayor of Pedantic Land and changed your name to Mr Pedantic Pedanticson. An engine is a collection of tools whose sole purpose is to provide a 3d/networking framework to create a game with.
It is that. You need physics? You got it. Need Shaders? You got it. Need Networking? You got it. Need collision feedback? You got it. Need particles? You got it. Need scripting? You got it.

If you're insisting that to be an engine you must adhere to a given genre and provide a framework for that genre like unreal does, then you're wrong. That's just one type of engine. We live in a world of many definitions.

Aurora is about flexiblity, like b3d was.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#70]
How am I supposed to know they're any good then?


It's not you Noel, I'm just paranoid about releasing these things publically given the number of trolls who love baiting me these days.
If you really want a look, give me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail the docs to you, provided you keep them to yourself.


N(Posted 2006) [#71]
Ant: In my profile.


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#72]
Ant, are you actually in a position to deliver this? If I buy this now, it's because I want it now. Amon doesn't have his yet, so if this is something you're not yet ready to deliver, I'll wait until you are.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#73]
I'm this second sending out the first batch so you'll get it pretty much as soon as I see the sale on the site. Was just cleaning it up all from the various demos we were doing. ALOT of files laying about, but it's a nice clean build now.


ckob(Posted 2006) [#74]
I would like to see the documentation as well my email can also be found in my profile.

My question since you have documentation done is what does your engine offer now that Sweenie's or Gmans does not? and a few of us have mentioned dropping the price what do you say to that. I refuse to pay almost as much as I did for bmax for a module.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#75]
Price is not likely to change. It would have if I didn't get any sales but I'm selling them at a fairly decent rate given the size of bmax's community. It's all about supply and demand I'm afraid!

But no probs on the docs, check your inbox.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#76]
You couldn't be more pedantic if you became the mayor of Pedantic Land and changed your name to Mr Pedantic Pedanticson.

well... i guess that says it all then, doesn't it...
no need for me to respond...


ahhhh what the heck...
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:7CRnWzvjdhHFjM:waltonfeed.com/pic/ostrich.gif http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:CU_TqxgJMnXzmM:www.natural-health-information-centre.com/image-files/head-in-sand.jpg http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:ee_W_Z-xYKZTBM:www.windmillsprogramme.com/images/animals/ostrich_full.jpg http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:8KcCuO1lQmJeGM:onwardoverland.com/offline/therapy/avestruz.gif http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:5e1KI0GmOUjUIM:www.karaoke-land.co.uk/albums/Davechanns-Funny-Gallery/ostrich_head.thumb.jpg

An engine is a collection of tools whose sole purpose is to provide a 3d/networking framework to create a game with.

well... your dev teammate seems to differ slightly in his opinion of what Aurora is...
It's basicly Bmax working in much the same way as Blitz3D does, A programming language with a renderer, physics and collisions etc plugged in,

Aurora is about flexiblity, like b3d was.

why, you even admit it yourself...
plus...
he's a stubborn young mule...
looks like developments are proving him right there too...

ahhh well, what can i say... Anthony is Anthony... i should've expected this... hey, good luck anyways... *as i put my plastic back in the wallet*...

pedantic, huh... ok... one more customer lost...

--Mike


N(Posted 2006) [#77]
The documentation works. Beats BlitzMax's anyways, as it's at least descriptive and tells you what stuff does.

In light of this, I'll probably buy it.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#78]
You're a very wierd individual Red. Kindly remove yourself from my presence.
-

Thanks for the compliment noel. (Well I took it as one :) )


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#79]
Kindly remove yourself from my presence.

no Lord Anthony... because you wish it...

--Mike


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#80]
Sounds good, Ant. If Noel is pleased with the docs, that's good enough for me.

Just wondering, is there any reason you didn't do this as a pure Mod with BMX and CPP code all compiled into a mod rather than more DLL's? Any reason I couldn't do this myself ( for my own purposes only obviously ) if I wanted to at some stage?


EDIT: Rest Removed.. I misunderstood.


Haramanai(Posted 2006) [#81]
Calm down man.
It's just that everyone saving money for Max3D.
Personally I am a little bit afraid to give money to any module that is not made from BRL and a 3d module like Aurora will be forgoten the time Max3D comes out.
The reasons are not that Aurora it's not good or anything else. The reason is that the users of Max3D will be more of any 3D module for the BMax.
You know you are creating a 3D engine and your site of it it's just plain text! Man! Buy some space make your site to look more beutyfull upload some executable demos write some tutorials.
Think about it. You better stop posting here and work on this tasks and as you finish create a new topic and shut down our big mouths and let our eyes to judge.


LarsG(Posted 2006) [#82]
Running something in a thread doesn't automagically make it an engine, just as another program can well be an engine, even if it's not running in a thread..

it's all in how the specific program handles all it's objects, how they are presented to you, and how you can affect them..


N(Posted 2006) [#83]
Any reason I couldn't do this myself ( for my own purposes only obviously ) if I wanted to at some stage?


There's the licensing issue with OGRE being under the LGPL. You can't statically link to it without subsequently placing your code (and, as a consequence, anything that uses the module) under the LGPL.

It's unfortunate, but at the moment it's the only way to get around the LGPL's effect.


Bremer(Posted 2006) [#84]
When you say that the Docs are for developers only, then your are absolutely right. How else will they know if this is something that they will be able to use in their project if they have no idea about how its used and what specific features they can expect. And its precisely why its a wise move to allow people access to the documentation.

They aren't about to take your word for it, or anyone elses for that matter. People want to see for themselves and make their own judgement, and the documentation is a good way of doing just that.

So I think that Noel is right, when he is asking to see the documentation, and I think that you will find that not all people are looking for a chance at picking it apart, they just want a better base on which to make their decision on whether to go for it or not.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#85]
i personally would have no problem licensing it (if the price were a lil lower) while waiting for the BMax 3D module... if that were the only consideration...

its the attitude of the person who seems to be in charge that would be my determining factor... i'd feel more confident waiting 'till Evak gives the go ahead before making a final decision... he seems to have a better grip on the reality of marketing and promoting this to a group of experienced coders... Anthony, on the other hand, appears to need a lil more training in the art of product marketing and promotion :)

i think that Aurora looks like it could be a real asset to the BMax developer, in the short and long term...

@Lars...
Running something in a thread doesn't automagically make it an engine,
you are right... and i never said that it did...

... but lets take a quick look around at some of the ones that definitely qualify as game engines.

ok... from OGRE...
	EventProcessor* eventProcessor = new EventProcessor(); 
	eventProcessor->initialise(root->getAutoCreatedWindow()); 
	eventProcessor->startProcessingEvents(); 
	// event engine is running, now we listen for keys and frames (replaces while loops)
	CSimpleKeyListener* keyListener = new CSimpleKeyListener(); 
	eventProcessor->addKeyListener(keyListener); 
	CSimpleFrameListener* frameListener = new CSimpleFrameListener(
		eventProcessor->getInputReader());
	// you can have many frameListeners
	root->addFrameListener(frameListener); 

	//----------------------------------------------------
	// 8 start rendering 
	//----------------------------------------------------
	[b]root->startRendering(); // blocks until a frame listener returns false. eg from pressing escape in this example[/b]

from Crystal Space...
void Simple::Start ()
{
  csDefaultRunLoop (object_reg);
}

/*---------------*
 * Main function
 *---------------*/
int main (int argc, char* argv[])
{
  iObjectRegistry* object_reg =
    csInitializer::CreateEnvironment (argc, argv);
  if (!object_reg) return -1;

  simple = new Simple (object_reg);
  if (simple->Initialize ())
    simple->Start ();
  delete simple;
  simple = 0;

  csInitializer::DestroyApplication (object_reg);
  return 0;
}

from Nebula...
// trigger the gfx server once every frame
00075     // Trigger() returns false if you close the window
00076     while (gfxServer->Trigger())
00077     {
00078         gfxServer->BeginFrame();
00079         gfxServer->BeginScene();
00080         gfxServer->Clear(nGfxServer2::AllBuffers, 0.0f, 0.8f, 0.6f, 0.4f, 0.0f, 0);
00081 
00082         gfxServer->EndScene();
00083         gfxServer->PresentScene();
00084         gfxServer->EndFrame();
00085         
00086         // allow Windows to multitask
00087         n_sleep(0.0);
00088     }


as you can see, the concept of a running code entity, something that can dispatch and query messages, appears to be universal to the definition of an engine...


--Mike


N(Posted 2006) [#86]
Advice to anyone paying attention to Red Ocktober: don't. He's insane and not worth the time spent to decipher his rambling, pointless posts which are typically only there to incite a flame war.

So remember, kids: don't do drugs. And don't listen to Red Ocktober.


Pax(Posted 2006) [#87]
I would also like to have a look at the documentation, my email is in profile.


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#88]
There's the licensing issue with OGRE being under the LGPL. You can't statically link to it without subsequently placing your code (and, as a consequence, anything that uses the module) under the LGPL.


Oh shoot, yeah, forgot that. I think the LGPL says that a clearly defined application using the library doesn't have to be open-sourced, but you're right, my module would, and I can't do that with someone else's closed source dll. So yeah, can't do that.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#89]

Advice to anyone paying attention to Red Ocktober: don't. He's insane and not worth the time spent to decipher his rambling, pointless posts which are typically only there to incite a flame war.

So remember, kids: don't do drugs. And don't listen to Red Ocktober.

QFT


I would also like to have a look at the documentation, my email is in profile.



On it's way.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#90]
Anyone wanting the docs just ask, I don't mind e-mailing them out.


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#91]
I ordered earlier today. Would you please send me the documentation. You shoulod have my email - James hobden


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#92]
Advice to anyone paying attention to Red Ocktober: don't. He's insane and not worth the time spent to decipher his rambling, pointless posts which are typically only there to incite a flame war.

hahaha... your record on flaming people speaks for itself... i need not even take time to quote you, as it is common knowledge...

me on the other hand... well, i'll let my statements in this post alone speak for themselves...
i personally would have no problem licensing it (if the price were a lil lower) while waiting for the BMax 3D module...
still and all... that doesn't take anything from the potential to aid game developers here that Aurora can provide... like i said before, this is a good thing...
good luck with this Ant... and the team... great coming together of the minds, so to say... congrats on the release...

i think that Aurora looks like it could be a real asset to the BMax developer, in the short and long term...


your advice to anyone, seeing as you feel the need to make a public proclamation, should've been... "don't listen to Noel... he's got issues... just copy and use his code :P and give him credit for it, or not"...

good luck people... i'm gonna wait a while on this...

--Mike


Nennig(Posted 2006) [#93]
Please send me the documentation too.
Many thanks


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#94]
First orders have just been shipped, check your inboxes and if you didn't receive it please inform me.

James, as stated i've just sent out the first orders so you'll have the docs in that.

Nen, no prob.


LarsG(Posted 2006) [#95]
I'd like to check the docs as well, if you don't mind, Ant.. :)


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#96]
new video. Cygnus just added some simple AI to the ships and a big stack of physics blocks to the FMC level :)

http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/FM1.wmv


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#97]
I've not received anything yet. Is it a zip file attachment and if so how big is the file.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#98]
Ant, your sig's getting just a little bit large :P

I'm currently programming what you see in the video, using "Aurora". I can say the engine is pretty good. I've not had any bugs crop up. Might get some more video updates soon :)


Amon(Posted 2006) [#99]
I've not received anything yet either. Waiting patiently. :)


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#100]
looks really hot Cyg... thx for the show...

hey, are those walls on the stadium border bumpmapped?

--Mike


Booticus(Posted 2006) [#101]
Email me the docs too please! I bought the package yesterday, but I want something to look at while I wait for my payment to be processed!


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#102]
My mail server rejected the initial send so i'm just resending it now as a rar instead of an exe. Should be with you any moment now. Sorry for the delay.
Mario your payment has been processed. (Unless there's two marios who bought it :) )


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#103]
no I havent added any shader stuff yet, Ogre has material techniques that let you either have fallback materials or LOD materials (like mesh lod, only shaders and stuff are degraded with distance). I'm just woking on the basic materials for low level cards at the moment, and will add more advanced techniques later.

I have a larger more ambitious level I'm working on which will determine how extensively we can use the dynamic shadows in a complex level, That one in the vid is pretty low poly.


Grey Alien(Posted 2006) [#104]
Cool, good luck with this. Shame I'm not doing any 3D right now, but I can wait for it to be fixed and docs improved so that's OK.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#105]
thx for the info Evak...

--Mike


Booticus(Posted 2006) [#106]
Haha! I got it Antony! Thanks much!

And there can BE only ONE Mario. ;)


Amon(Posted 2006) [#107]
I got it. Now, time to mess around. :)


Alienforce(Posted 2006) [#108]
Any more screenshots or videos ??


gellyware(Posted 2006) [#109]
I'm interested in seeing the docs.

Please email to support@...


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#110]
What's Gellyware? :D good name, haha :)


kenshin(Posted 2006) [#111]
Just got it. Looks great.

Is there any way of disabling that annoying config window that appears everytime I run the demo?


Kuron(Posted 2006) [#112]
Looks like a winner, Ant! Don't have a need for 3D, but if I did, this would be the one I buy.

is there any reason you didn't do this as a pure Mod with BMX and CPP code all compiled into a mod
with BMax's history of breaking existing code and existing mods and requiring many mods to be recompiled for each new version of BMax, it makes much more sense to make it available as a DLL. Easier to use, less hassle and less compatibility problems to worry about.


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#113]
with BMax's history of breaking existing code and existing mods and requiring many mods to be recompiled for each new version of BMax, it makes much more sense to make it available as a DLL. Easier to use, less hassle and less compatibility problems to worry about.


I don't really see how. He's gotta have a honking great chunk of BMax code to have the OO design anyway. Making it a pure module would mean more imported c code being compiled in GCC, not any more BMX code.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#114]
The aurora official forums are now open

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Aurora_Game_Engine/

There are privat forums and guest forums. Guest forums anyone can post without registering, private forums require moderator validation to the accounts. Anyone's who paid can log in and create their account. Please use the same e-mail you purchursed with so I know you're a legit license holder.


ckob(Posted 2006) [#115]
I've seen the docs and I would have to say if Ant keeps up on this he will have a very good product. The documentation from what I have seen is coming along nicely and if anyone is looking to get in on the ground floor of a engine being developed this might be it. Good luck Antony


MikeHart(Posted 2006) [#116]
Aurora.... Aurora Game engine, Aurora programming language Aurora Baking flower.

To much Aurora for me. Someone may pull you into a brand rights trial.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#117]
Ok Mr Armstrong.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#118]
Ant, I kind of agree that "Aurora" has been used quite a bit, you might want to use your name-generating skills to think of something even more supercool :)


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#119]
Ok, let's do a public vote on some ideas..

Vopia Advance Game Engine.

Fusion Engine.

Turon Design API

Inventor API.

Lucid Plasma

Next3D

Edit I have a good name. Name. Open Name..or Namer. Or (I can't believe you don't shut up - apu) What the? (First of all you take a name that can't possible be good, then you )(Several minutes pass) (I mean what were you thinking! I mean thank you, come again)


This is too much like hard work...ending post in 5..4..3..2...


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#120]
Next3D


You're not trying, are you? ;)


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#121]
Your mum.

:)


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#122]
Now, why you would call a 3d engine "Adele", i have no idea.

:P


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#123]
Well it's better than next3d :)


popcade(Posted 2006) [#124]
I have to say it's very impressive,
about the name, Aurora3D sounds good.


JaviCervera(Posted 2006) [#125]
So, Antony, if I get it right, you have wrapped all the OGRE dlls inside a single one?

In that case, I guess that you now that, in order to comply with the LGPL, you MUST make the source of that dll available to ANYONE, not just for the people who bought the engine.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#126]
Work on the doc viewer is coming along nice. It's wrote in bmax and uses a true canvas graphics display for cool looking borders etc.

Will post it for anyone to download once done. I feel a little better about releasing this public than a pdf. Because if you slag this off, I know you're lying. :)


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#127]
As long as you keep a PDF for "owners" so it is printable with acceptable results :D (not like .html helpfiles and the like :-) )

I normally tend to use TreePad for documentations ... great power and users only must download the TreePad viewer to read the docs :-) (it allows direct hierarchy export to html which is great for the online documentation part :) )


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#128]
Yeah the docs are generated at runtime from a text file. So it's easy to generate a pdf from that.

Can anyone host the docs for me? I'm looking for free space now but they all have limits. IT's a exe viewer so it's a little over 1mb.


Vectrex(Posted 2006) [#129]
Jedive: They're not violating the LGPL because they aren't altering OGRE itself. All their extra functionality is through the wrapper, which isn't statically linked.

Red Oktober: well I normally wouldn't encourage someone who's obviously quite mad, but as for the 'never touched unreal programming' bit, I've worked on large mods programming and level editting and was on planetUnreal, plus I teach Unreal and BlitzMax... so, I win :)


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#130]
@ Vec...
normally wouldn't encourage someone who's obviously quite mad
good policy... indeed...

as for the 'never touched unreal programming' bit, I've worked on large mods programming and level editting and was on planetUnreal, plus I teach Unreal and BlitzMax... so, I win :)
yeah... and i stayed at a holiday inn the other night... so i guess i win...

first of all, the 13 year old down the street has modded UnReal levels... almost every game nerd on the net as played with it... but again, the comments you made sure don't indicate that you are one of em...

but like i said, i could be wrong... show me a bit of code...

second... who are you teaching it to... just who are these Unreal students...

i dunno Vec... sounds to me like your in the middle of another one of your bedroom coders lucid wet dreams... talk to me when you wake up :P

--Mike


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#131]
Yes but you must use the standard DLLs of OGRE which are already 6+ DLLs on their own. As I don't own the lib yet, I can't say if there are only 2 DLLs but thats what is mentioned above

Statically linking to OGRE would mean, that you must give out the sources as this is counted as derived work. (see the "what LGPL means" short clarification on the page)


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#132]
I link to the dlls, nothing is statically linked.


Alienforce(Posted 2006) [#133]
I can host the Docs for You Ant.. if you want. Just mail them.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#134]
Thanks for the offer but I found a patsy, I mean person to host them :)


LAB[au](Posted 2006) [#135]
About the Past ...

"I know but in my defense we are going back almost 2 years. And I only sold 23 copies total so it's not like there's a wrath of people waiting to claim a discount."

But probably all this customers , including me, are still reading these forums. I wouldn't buy this engine because of the past, lost time and money..., and to deny a reduced price on the account that there is no list seems to me a quite doubtfull attitude.

"Lifetime Updates" for aurora, yes, well , just keep in mind aurora may live only a few weeks everybody, nextgen goes well with obsolete! And if the number of sold copies is under 23, well you will be dumped without any regrets from the main developper in favor of the next nextgen engine.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#136]
Not buying it is your choice. You're only denying yourself, not me.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#137]
Not buying it is your choice. You're only denying yourself, not me.

ooohhhhh boyyyy... so the people who supported you in the past can just go and eat cake... huh...

not really the sort of attitude that would give any prospective new customers a feeling of confidence...

--Mike


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#138]
Jesus christ Red you're a shit stirrer and a half.
Just stop talking. For the love of god, stop talking.


TMyke(Posted 2006) [#139]
I bought Aurora to form an opinion.
And I must say that I am very very disappointed.
For such an expensive product, there is not a true internet site,
the package does not include any example, just this:



and , the doc is very very summary, and this price
for a wrap, humm, I find that really too expensive.
It's a good idea too do this wrap/engine , but your product is not yet ready to be marketed.
work on your package and packs a little more, provided a demo, screenshot, etc...,
it is very important for the new customers.

one should not sell to work, but work to sell


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#140]
And if you have any talent at all, soon you'll have something running like this,




I have no idea what makes you inaccurately claim that as a demo, it states clearly in the docs that it's just a quick compatibility test to make you set everything up right.

A cube is not a demo, repeat after me, a cube is not a demo.

As for the docs that's a matter of opinon. They were good enough for noel. And I'm inclined to believe he's a better coder than you going on what I've seen from both of you.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#141]
Jesus christ Red you're a shit stirrer and a half.
Just stop talking


wait a minute... wait a minute Ant!!! please...

who is actually stirring up the shiite here... you were the one who just dismissed a potential customer with your off the cuff response...

now do you that that was right...

naaaahhhh baby... you're the one doing the stirring... not me...

and you should treat these people with a lil more consideration... after all they are your bread and butter... they are your peers... and they are your community brothers...

by that i mean, this community... not the looney tunes dimension that you exist in in the other world :P

I'm inclined to believe he's a better coder than you going on what I've seen from both of you.

more nicey nice from Ant to the rest of us... have ya even looked at Eliza3D yet... you might be inclined to revise your opinion a bit...

c'mon Ant... grow up... be a success... we're all rooting for you...

--Mike


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#142]
OK Doctor Roberts.


Robert Cummings(Posted 2006) [#143]
Can't say you haven't been warned people.... yet you still buy and still get ripped off. It's stupidity at it's finest.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#144]
Bravo "rob".


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#145]
yeah rob... and i was the first one way back, who was willing to give this guy the benefit of the doubt...

... just look at how he's treating me now.

i feel so abused...

**me starts crying**

--Mike


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#146]
I really wish the mods would just ban the majority of the blitz irc'ers. You really are the worst bunch of trolls to frequent any internet forum in the whole damn world.

I'm passing on all further trolls to the mods, and I'm not replying to anymore of your vile comments. Do your worst.


N(Posted 2006) [#147]
Any purchase is a calculated risk. You don't do it based on good faith, you do it based on whether or not it provides a solution to your problem. If Aurora does not provide a solution to your problem, them you really shouldn't buy it. If you do buy it just to 'form an opinion' or for the sake of buying it, then you're just making yourself look bad for wasting your time. I'm going to buy it as soon as I manage to convince my parents to lend me their credit card again (not hard, but what with Easter there's other things on their minds -- like visiting their parents and such).

As far as I'm concerned, Antony knows what he's doing. You just have to stop staring at his writing.


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#148]
We will see.
I trust that this time it, it will end differently or should I say: not end in the near future? :)

If people do not trust in a product and create usefull feedback, it often will suffer of losing production focus. Why not? Without usefull input you could assume, that the product is ok as it is.


CodeGit(Posted 2006) [#149]
I purchased the product.

Here are my two cents...

I think the product has great potential....but I agree it needs a lot more work on the docs and a lot more examples covering all aspects of the software. I think Anthony has to remember that most people that purchased the wrapper will not understand Ogre at all. An idiots guide to Ogre and the wrapper is really important for this product to succeed.

Unfortunately, without the examples and a massive improvement in the docs, the product will fail. I hope this is not going to be the case as Bmax3D does not seem to be any closer to being available and Ogre is a good substitute.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#150]
I really wish the mods would just ban the majority of the blitz irc'ers.
you mean, like you were banned not too long ago Ant...

noone is trolling Ant... you take things too personally... we want you to suceed...

that doesn't mean we've gotta stick our heads down a hole and ignore the facts as they clearly appear to be... c'mon now...

Noel makes a good point... and a bad point too...
Any purchase is a calculated risk. You don't do it based on good faith
... not really true... think about it...

but the gist of what he is saying sorta rings true...

but as the promoter of a viable product, you really have gotta learn to be above all the tit for tat stuff... and you've gotta learn the most important thing of all...

the customer is always right... regardless if they aren't... calling your potential customers names, well... that's just not the best way to gain their confidence... wouldn't you agree...

at any rate, i'm gonna wait until Evak and Cyg, people whom i have a lil more faith in at this point, make some more positive statements, before i jump into the Aurora party boat...

Antony knows what he's doing.
lets hope that your parents feel the same way Noel...

boy, you really outta get financially independent before you start givin' out purchasing advice to people who have to earn there own money... your parents!!!! :P

--Mike


Robert Cummings(Posted 2006) [#151]
I really wish the mods would just ban the majority of the blitz irc'ers. You really are the worst bunch of trolls to frequent any internet forum in the whole damn world.

Firstly, I have defended you time and time again in the past and offered advice about polish, selling and so forth - all which has not been appreciated. I personally don't want to derail this thread but you're doing a much better job of derailling your own threads.

Secondly, I don't do IRC. Haven't for a long, long time. I think you need to wake up and understand why the people who bought your products are complaining. Thats all folks from me.


N(Posted 2006) [#152]
boy, you really outta get financially independent before you start givin' out purchasing advice to people who have to earn there own money


I earn my own money, but I can't get a credit card until I'm 18. So I use their credit card and pay them back in full.


Red Ocktober(Posted 2006) [#153]
i said financially independent... and you come back with something about earning your own money...

you are obviously still financially dependent on your parents... hey, don't take offense... i was just playing with you noel...

actually... i envy you... i wish i had someone to go to and get some cash from from time to time :)

--Mike


SebHoll(Posted 2006) [#154]
Aurora: I've got to agree with Red on this one - I don't understand how you expect to have any customers at all when you mock anyone who raises a half decent question. I think you should rethink your company policy before posting anything else - the people who post here would like a 3D engine and as Red says, the community wants you to succeed - but your outbursts and agressive attitude is appalling.

I wasn't going to say anything but I feel it necessary to contribute some outsider comments.

Seb


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#155]
When I came up with the idea of the Ogre Engine project. My plan was to wait a couple of months and get a marketing guy with industry experience onboard, then start selling the engine when the game was in a state that was ready to push to publishers. The engine itself was going to be secondary to the game.

Marketing guy was also going to take care of the webpage design and development and general running of the business, finances and non tech support.

Unfortunately since the C++ side is allmost all ants, it's really ants engine so when he decided he needed to sell it yesterday to pay some bills we let him.

I'm no longer in charge of the engine, Cygnus and I will help ant where we can, but he's the only one that benefits from sales, so he gets to be your main point of contact and help you with support issues.

Were going to press on with the game to the original plan, but hope to support ant in his efforts in making the engine as good as it can be.

Posting this mostly to answer the people that emailed me lastnight and on here too.


H&K(Posted 2006) [#156]
Unless it talks directly to the Hardwares driver, I would just concider it a Wrapper for Directx or opengl or whatever. Mind you even then I would just call it a wrapper for the Hardware driver ;-)

Oh and call it "StopGap" -i.e. till max3d is out


Alienforce(Posted 2006) [#157]
Ant.. is it 100% Source for everything (c++ and bmax)??
If i buy it today will i get it today ? 8)


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#158]
I think you only get the the wrapper DLL for windows. He wanted to sell a seperate version with static libs for Windows Linux and Mac and possibly C++ source later on.

You do get source for everything Bmax side though.


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#159]
Anyone having trouble using the OFusion plugin with 3dsMax 7? If I load a model and then activate the Ogre Viewport, the viewport goes black and then Max locks up completely.

I realise it's nothing to do with Aurora, but it is the only thing that made me interested in Ogre, and if I can't get it working, I probably won't buy Aurora just yet. Just wondered if Evak had any ideas really.


Alienforce(Posted 2006) [#160]
Thanks for the reply Evak.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#161]
Last video on this thread:

http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/FMCb.wmv

this one has music, simple shooting weapon, physics blocks you can shoot at everything. And everythings still casting shadows including the bullets and physics blocks.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#162]
Ant.. is it 100% Source for everything (c++ and bmax)??
If i buy it today will i get it today ? 8)


I don't mind giving the C++ source to license holders who need it, to make modifications.

If you buy it today you'll get it today,yes. The only reason others had a delay was so I could write the docs so people wern't left stranded.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#163]
Gabriel, I never had any problems with getting the viewports working. Have you tried both D3D and OpenGL?

I have max8 in D3D which is a lot faster than GL, and it's never failed to work yet. My video card is a 6600GT 128mb AGP with forceware 84.25 (the oblivion ones).

You can change between GL and D3D in the ofusion drop down menu, under the viewport section.

PS. there are Ofusion forums, and Lioric the author is very helpful.

http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2addons/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=abd08d66f872ce68d64d261fd5aad256

Expecting an updated version soon, I for one will be buying the pro version, and may end up using the 3dsmax-ogre scripting language that also comes with a library much like the loader does.


Booticus(Posted 2006) [#164]
Yeah the oFusion plugin is working fine for me in 3dsmax 8. The product seems cool. I can't do much other than loading a mesh I exported from Max8, but hey thats a start!! Rest assured, Antony's forums will get plenty of posts from me about the basics. :) But for now, I'm sifting through the OGRE docs.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#165]
looks like the engine changed now, since my version.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#166]
Thats no longer working Ad, it's now

TSceneLoader.LoadBest(file)


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#167]
Gabriel, I never had any problems with getting the viewports working. Have you tried both D3D and OpenGL?


Yes. Both work fine with an empty scene. As soon as I load in my animated model and turn the Ogre Preview back on again, boom, it goes black and Max locks up.

I have max8 in D3D which is a lot faster than GL, and it's never failed to work yet. My video card is a 6600GT 128mb AGP with forceware 84.25 (the oblivion ones).


Yes so do I. Exactly the same card and drivers. Perhaps it's a Max 7/8 thing then. I'm not paying for a Max8 upgrade I don't need, so I'll try the OFusion forums, thanks.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#168]
Booticus, to load an OSM scene file you have to use:

TSceneLoader.LoadBest(file) 
Display.ShadowMode( Shadows_StencilAdd )


you have to add the shadow type your using for some reason, but if you create an OSM and want to load it just requires you to comment out the light values and replace the TSceneloader line.

you can change LoadBest to something else in the aurora.bmx I changed it to LoadOSM which is a lot more intuitive :)


Booticus(Posted 2006) [#169]
Thanks for the tips Evak!!


kronholm(Posted 2006) [#170]
I would like to take a look at the documentation as well. Email's kronholm@.... Thanks!


Chris C(Posted 2006) [#171]
I must be so dumb to think that it so unfair to rip people off to the tune of £40 a time for a wrapper round ogre, somthing that quite a number of people here could do anyhow...

an then you gotta feel sorry for all the people who wasted their time developing ogre so others could rip their work at £40 a time and not get anything for it themselves...

maybe I'm missing the point and not seeing that its okay to take someone elses work and claim its a "next generation engine" but I personally think its DAMN UNFAIR


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#172]
Yeah, to be honest with you I agree. Sinbad and the othe guys must have spent a good 3-4 years on ogre, plus crazy eddies GUI, and OgreNewt etc. At least Ant offered to provide C++ source for the wrapper for those who bought it.

I thought it was going to be $40 not lbs, but still. If you want to make a game with a decent render engine there isn't much to choose from thats Bmax friendly and has a good art path. Ogre3D is getting a non LGPL console license too :), which is something that offers hope for prople wanting to get onto 360 or PS3 later. Not that the wrapper is going to help much there.

There's alreadt Ogredotnet, when C# gets more libraries that are useful for gamers (quite likely with the C# based 360 SDK). I think there will be a lot of potential in ogre in the future. Just really nice to see that there are some nice open source tools out there that will let you compete with expensive products.


kenshin(Posted 2006) [#173]
It needs a lot of work regarding documentation/examples.

I like to support the 3D engine scene which is one of the reasons I've purchased it. Sort of like an incentive to continue developing it. Unfortunately this hasn't worked for me in the past (BasicGL, Gamebench..) but I keep trying. I've been making my game 3D engine independant as much as I can because of this continual problem. That way when the engine is no longer supported, then moving to another engine is not too painful.

The people releasing these wrappers need to understand that if a person is going to hang a game off their wrap then continued development/support for the working life of the engine is a necessity, particularly when the cash is on the table. It's this continued development/support that I'm looking for when I pay the cash, not the initial wrap. When it gets pin droppingly quiet for a month or 2 shortly after the initial release then it doesn't inspire my confidence in doing any form of long term work with the engine.

Also, initial engine sales are normally people just testing the water. You will attract more sales by continued development of the engine over the long term. This is because the new buyers will be feeling confident in the engine's future.

The future of ColdSteel, gmans irrlicht wrap and Eliza seem pretty safe at the moment. Time will tell if Aurora follows suit.


xlsior(Posted 2006) [#174]
this one has music, simple shooting weapon, physics blocks you can shoot at everything. And everythings still casting shadows including the bullets and physics blocks.


...and some Z-ordering issues, it seems -- unless it's intentional, but it looks like the orange shapes on those circular portals are visible through other objects including walls.


Hambone(Posted 2006) [#175]
Call me underwhelmed. Ogre3d? Should Ugger3D. It's an open source rats nest and a mess for uber nerds only.

When Gabriel is able to release his BMAX interface for TV3D, Aurora, or whatever, will be next to useless. TV3D has Newton, Networking and a very fast, feature rich rendering methodology. For all the folks out their who keep throwing good money after bad trying to find that "Magic Bullet" for 3D, Physics, networking etc ... Just buy TV3D when Gabriels wrapper is released and maybe throw some money his way in appreciation for all he went through to move it along.

TV3D 6.5 is very, very good. With the pending ability to compile with GCC and thus BMAX it will be a slam dunk.

Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong :)

Allan


N(Posted 2006) [#176]
TV3D has Newton, Networking and a very fast, feature rich rendering methodology.


Um, it doesn't have networking.


Hambone(Posted 2006) [#177]
Noel, check the features of 6.5.

From the feature list of TV3D 6.5:

# Network Engine:
# Optimized for real-time game networking
# Client/Server, or Peer-to-Peer support
# Reliable and Unreliable UDP Socket support
# Automated ping function with lag detection
# Integrated bandwidth throttling
# Optional bandwidth limits for hosts and clients
# Multiple packet channels
# Lightweight yet powerful, without DirectPlay overhead

Nuff said.


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#178]
Xlesior, the Zorder problem was me :), I was trying to get the glowy thing at the top to not get shadows just before I made the video. There are options to play with the depth buffer in the material editor, and when messing with it I wasn't sure what the default was. So far ogre's Z sorting has been rhobust, I havent seen any issues that I didn't make myself.

TV3D is only for windows, don't know if it has as good an art path for max users either. The community edition of Ofusion thats currently free is pretty good but lacks a lot of the advanced features that the pro version has. Which includes direct export of max native material editor shader creation tools into Ogre shader materials.

I havent been able to see TV6.5 yet, but wasn't all that impressed with TV6.2

I am interested in 6.5 when there's an actual demo for it, and I can see the art pipeline tools I'll be interested. The few screenshots look nice, but nothing that I havent seen elsewhere.

Cygnus and I are currently using JV_ODE in blitzmax for FMC in our game, even though Aurora comes with Newton. Mainly because Cygnus and I have been using ODE for over a year in our other projects. There's also other libs that could be easily added to Aurora, including Tokomak and Ageia PhysX. Ant chose Newton because it was the simplest to use.

Look forward to seeing what TV3D has to offer :)


N(Posted 2006) [#179]
Noel, check the features of 6.5.

From the feature list of TV3D 6.5:

# Network Engine:
# Optimized for real-time game networking
# Client/Server, or Peer-to-Peer support
# Reliable and Unreliable UDP Socket support
# Automated ping function with lag detection
# Integrated bandwidth throttling
# Optional bandwidth limits for hosts and clients
# Multiple packet channels
# Lightweight yet powerful, without DirectPlay overhead

Nuff said.


Have you actually used Truevision 6.5? It doesn't have networking support (yet, at any rate, and it's been a good while since they started -- I'd count on it being a feature that gets cut out).


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#180]

When Gabriel is able to release his BMAX interface for TV3D, Aurora, or whatever, will be next to useless. TV3D has Newton, Networking and a very fast, feature rich rendering methodology. For all the folks out their who keep throwing good money after bad trying to find that "Magic Bullet" for 3D, Physics, networking etc ... Just buy TV3D when Gabriels wrapper is released and maybe throw some money his way in appreciation for all he went through to move it along.

Calling Aurora next to useless just shows a lack of understanding of what the engine is capable of.
The material system is probably the best in the biz. It has postfx. It has networking thanks to BlitzNet optica.
It's a cracking engine, and certainly better than the last version of TV I tried. I found tv to be archaic. And you really can't even begin to compare the art pipelines.
In evak's words, Ofusion is the best he's ever tried.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#181]
When Gabriel is able to release his BMAX interface for TV3D, Aurora, or whatever, will be next to useless. TV3D has Newton, Networking and a very fast, feature rich rendering methodology. For all the folks out their who keep throwing good money after bad trying to find that "Magic Bullet" for 3D, Physics, networking etc ... Just buy TV3D when Gabriels wrapper is released and maybe throw some money his way in appreciation for all he went through to move it along.


Okay, I can clearly see that constructive critisism isn't one of your strong points. You have no reason at all to attack Aurora like that.


boomboommax(Posted 2006) [#182]
i think its pathetic to sell a wrapper for someone elses open source work at £40, lowest of the low imho (smaller cost would be more exceptable but 40 quid, ffs its not even your own work)

more exceptable would be to give some of the income to the creators of ogre itself, after all a wrapper is nothing without the thing it wraps


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#183]
BlitzNet costs 15, MaxAvi costs 10, Aurora costs 15.

Total 40.


ckob(Posted 2006) [#184]
so if I make a game with ogre I shouldnt sell it for money because its disprespect to the authors? Also if Aurora was just an ogre wrapper I'd understand why he shouldnt charge for it but it isnt, Aurora has a ton of other stuff included as well.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#185]

i think its pathetic to sell a wrapper for someone elses open source work at £40, lowest of the low imho (smaller cost would be more exceptable but 40 quid, ffs its not even your own work)




Looks like you don't know what you're paying for. I know "Aurora" has put alot of time into making this work with Max and I don't think he's just wrapped Ogre functions in C++. there's a *lot* of other max side stuff he's done too.

I'm with Evak when I say I wanted the engine to be shown off much later on when the game was more complete, but what is there is good and it's not "low" to want to get something back for what you've done.


ckob(Posted 2006) [#186]
I am using Aurora and other then the lack of examples I think its very easy and it does not wrap just ogre he has a bunch of other things as well. I plan on writing some examples to help Aurora and his team out and the small community of Aurora users.


Nennig(Posted 2006) [#187]
Good idea, personally, if I could see more examples (code + exe), I would consider buying it.

I am sure I am not alone on this one.

Indeed, I don´thave the time to figure out on my own, how to use the product.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2006) [#188]
I have to say too, that it's stable. When coding the video above I came across no bugs (related to the engine being made anyway!)

There are some things missing- non urgent things, but i'm sure these will come with time. I'm looking into some of them myself and when I find the solution I'm sure we will see these things added to Aurora.

For people wanting to throw insults or just critisize, You should think about what has actually been done here. If you're thinking "I could have done it", then, go and do it. I've not seen any of this done in Max before, thats why we did it our own way!

I've not seen any real arguments against what's been done is all and I feel Aurora is getting way more than his fair share of critisisms here.

[edit]

Ckob, Examples made by users is very likely a good thing. great idea.


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#189]
Come on people, get settled again.

Aurora is really nice.

It has a 3D rendering part using OGRE, which is known to be good.
It has a networking module using BNetEx, which is good as well.
And it has AVI support, which definitely is nothing bad as well.

Sure, 40$ / € would be better than 40£ (£ is still an extremely overrated currency), but still its cheaper than other shader capable 3d libraries and it is already BM usable. Something most others lack until you write a wrapper which will take weeks to months depending on the systems design.


Kanati(Posted 2006) [#190]
Ant... You need to have some kind of discount program set up for those that have purchased Optica and/or the AVI modules or the aurora engine costs 40 gbp irregardless of the other modules. Which isn't what you said up above.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#191]
Good point Kanait. I'll add a 25 pound version for blitznet owners. easy enough to do with swreg.

Make sure you buy with the same e-mail address so I know it's you.(You being whoever bought net optica, not just you kanati. although there wern;t many sales :) )


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#192]
Ok, it's up. Just select the drop down menu from the shop page and you can select the 25 pound version.

It's not advised anyone orders with this if they havn't bought blitz net optica, as i'll just refund the order.


Hambone(Posted 2006) [#193]
After re-reading my post this morning I realize that it came off as an Aurora bash instead of a TV3D plug. Sorry, I really need to stop posting after midnight. I really like having lots of choices to choose from.

My point was mainly to address the people who were complaining about the past, present or presumed experiences. Aurora is clearly fresh out of the gate and a proper appraisal is some ways off.

BTW Ofusion may be the greatest tool for Max since sliced bread but for the non-Max users out here Ogre3D's pipeline is no better or worse than any other, so unless you "own" 3DSMax it's not really that big of a selling point.

But I digress, yet again. Most of us have been around long enough to know how these "my engine is better than your engine" arguments serve no purpose and only inflame the good folks who come around.

So again, I apologize for starting this excellent thread down the wrong path.

A hearty congrats to all involved with Aurora. If this community gets behind it consider your job well done. The people around here are a tough bunch to please.

Allan


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#194]

So again, I apologize for starting this excellent thread down the wrong path.

A hearty congrats to all involved with Aurora. If this community gets behind it consider your job well done. The people around here are a tough bunch to please.


No problem, and thank you. This place would be better if people didn't take things so personally really. It's like one wrong word and the whole thread is derailed into a series of slagging matches. It really serves no purpose other than to show off this community in a really bad light.


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#195]
In evak's words, Ofusion is the best he's ever tried.

And also in Evak's words, he's never tried TV3D ;)

Calling Aurora next to useless just shows a lack of understanding of what the engine is capable of.
The material system is probably the best in the biz. It has postfx. It has networking thanks to BlitzNet optica.
It's a cracking engine, and certainly better than the last version of TV I tried. I found tv to be archaic. And you really can't even begin to compare the art pipelines.


You obviously didn't try 6.5, since you can't without buying it and it's a complete rewrite since the last possible version you *could* have tried. It's much faster, and much more powerful.

I've played with materials in both, and I can't see anything Ogre has which TV3D doesn't on this front.

TV3D also has post-processing shaders. Nvidia FX Composer shaders work without changes, and their bloom shader looks beautiful. RenderMonkey shaders work with minimal changes too.
In fact, it has a huge number of internal shaders you never need to know about. It's high level, so you just pick the feature you want and if TV needs to use a shader to achieve it, it does.

As for not being able to begin the compare the pipelines, I've used both in 3dsMax, and I disagree with Evak's evaluation of OFusion. It's nice at first ( if you ignore the fact that it crashes Max if I try to use any animated characters ) but you soon realise that the realtime viewport is not really making much difference.

Also, OFusion is only useful to a tiny number of people, whereas the TV3D pipeline is equally good for everyone. It comes with an app called ModelView which is where you play with your textures, shaders, even create normal maps from high and low poly versions of the model. It's great.


Now I appreciate that you were stung by Hambone's criticisms, but I would really prefer it if you didn't piss all over my work and the work of the TV3D guys, particularly since you're making ( incorrect ) cast iron assertions about an engine you've never used. I've been on this thread a few times, and I've made no reference to TV. I haven't been disrespectful or even made comparisons.

In fact, I said I was considering buying it, and I was. TV3D is perfect for my major project, but it might still be fun to knock something together in Ogre as a learning experience. However, I would really prefer it if you found a way to defend your product without slagging off something I've put a lot of work into too.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#196]
Woah your horses Gaberial, I made no mention of your wrapper. I'm looking forward to trying it, I was just basing my response on my own personal experience of tv. it wasn't good. I've found Ogre to be a much more flexible easy to use environment. Mainly becauses its like b3d in a lot of ways


Gabriel(Posted 2006) [#197]
Woah your horses Gaberial, I made no mention of your wrapper.


I realize that. But in the same way that Hambone made comments about Ogre ( the engine underlying your wrapper ) you made comments about TV3D ( the engine underlying my wrapper ) and - aside from being misleading and in a couple of cases, incorrect - it reflects on my hard work in the same as it reflects on your hard work.

You clearly didn't appreciate what Hambone had to say about TV3D vs Ogre, so I'm sure if you sit and think about it for a few, you can see why I didn't like what you had to say about Ogre vs TV3D.

I don't have a problem as we stand, I'm just asking you to remember that I put a lot of work into my wrapper, exactly as you did into yours.


AntonyWells(Posted 2006) [#198]
Yeah fair enough Gab, I'll refrain from bad mouthing TV unless absolutely required in future. :)


AdrianT(Posted 2006) [#199]
Sounds like you have been struggling with Ofusion Gabriel, It grew on me after a couple of days. And I'm used to using max as a level editor. Your used to using tools like UUnwrap and didn't seem to get on with B3D pipeline either. Just depends on what tools and how your used to working. I've mostly worked with max as a level editor since 1999 on commercial games, and find it second nature to work that way.

So far I havent had any serious problems with ofusion, just the kinds of little glitched you expect with beta software.

I'd have been interested in TV3D if there was something out there to prove it was any good without putting money up front and purchacing it without testing it first. Allways on the lookout for something thats both nice for coders and artists and keeps everyone happy.


skidracer(Posted 2006) [#200]
Overflow!