Suggestion for Blitz Research
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/Suggestion for Blitz Research
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| Hey there! I have an idea for Blitz Research, for the long term path it is :-) Engines like Unreal, Quest3D and Unity nowadays work fromout a visual tool where you tie a script to a certain object, set its options etc. Some engines even don't technically seperat "playing" from "editing". Now, I know Blitz is different by design; you code, and perhaps write your own editor, customised for your game. What I personally would like to see is a Blitz environment editor. Just to place entities, save / load files etc. Some sort of protocol. Imagine the editor loading/saving XML based files, which could be the "official proposed standard". The editor would make use of a library containing all the different media used in the game, and when you drag it onto the 3d canvas, it creates another instance of that object. What I propose is a very generic editor to use for games, with the option that it can be customised to your likings (plugins). Plugins could provide support for 3d sound entities, your own physics library or a particle system that can be used fromout the Blitz game editor. The editor being merged with the IDE, that would be perfect. What I am saying is; the potentional of BlitzMax is great, the language is what attracts me and distracts me from Unity and other "visual programming tools". But, I think it would be the right step if Blitz Research developed tools for Blitzmax, not only Blitzmax. Again; I am thinking long-term here. Perhaps Blitz Research could ask Mr. Gile[s] to build it for them, make a nice deal or sumthing. He has experience with these kind of tools. |
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| I definately think BRL should consider licensing in a toolset for people to purchase. |
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| I was just thinking also that with the complexity of the language now it takes a lot of `thinking` to code something big, it would be better to have higher-level tools that allow most of the game to be created without having to get into actual programming yourself. |
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| it would be better to have higher-level tools that allow most of the game to be created without having to get into actual programming yourself Where's the fun in that? |
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| I definately think BRL should consider licensing in a toolset for people to purchase. Or contract someone to design an editor. Mark's last released attempt at an editor was pretty sad (I speak, of course, of Maplet). |
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| BRL should think about "grouping" some of their own home superapps with their product ... I'm especially thinking of Gile[s] which is giving TGC income instead of BRL which is just sad or even worse ... |
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| I'm especially thinking of Gile[s] which is giving TGC income instead of BRL which is just sad TGC markets Gile[s], whereas Blitz Research would let it sit and rot on their front page without actually doing anything. TGC is working for it, and as such they deserve what they get. |
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| Wouldn't be too sure on that. The difference is that TGC has to do things like that to hide the problems with their self created products, to keep the people quiet and find new idiots that throw some bucks in before they realize that they were tricked. BRL on the other side isn't in need for something like this. With a real product box with Blitz created applications etc it would be of quite some good use for both. The application creators get some costumers, BRL itself has some real apps to show the power (something TGC still does not have if you ask me. Especially nothing that runs on all systems) Oh and they could bundle it to game creation like kits. We all know that Maplet was somewhere a first try for it and it wasn't a really successful one. With apps like TerraEd an Gile[s] as well as AlienCodec stuff, Blitz would get the buff that it really deserves ... new users would benefit of it as well with having the needed tools to create their world, make it living ... Sure all this thing can be found in the toolbox. But you find a lot of crap there too and new users most likely won't search there as they don't even know what they have to search for ... |
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| there is always the option for BRL to enter a partnership with the authors of such tools like TerraED and Giles, and alliencodec stuff, Perhaps they could build Bmax or Blitz skinned versions, and then BRL could sell those giving the original authors a cut of the profits .. Seems like a good idea to me. |
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| Dreamora, I disagree. Although I understand the whole "Dark Basic sucks VS Blitz Basic rules" debate, let's debate BRL. What TGC understands is how to market a product, crappy or not. A language is not going to attract a lot of people if you have to write your own tools. Its just the trend, and neccessary because games get more and more complex. I'm not expecting UnrealEd here. But it would be nice if this tool framework was bundled with BlitzMax (for example in a more expensive package) so that every user can write their extension to handle their games. This could be a list for the framework: - object placement + library - object handling (rotate,scale,resize) - define your own object properties. E.g from XML you could define that objects like 'monsters' have the properties uglyness, energy, etc. And ofcourse there are the standard properties like alpha, shinyness, etc. You then could add your own script to that property so that you can preview it. E.g: alpha would run alpha.script and this simply sets the alpha. Or power ups would constantly rotate in the editor. This way the editor adjusts to your game. I saw a cloud generation tool for Blitz3D in the forums. Imagine this as a plugin for this entity placement tool. - Saving file as text, XML or using your own loader/saver - Grouping objects in portals (like in Quake) - Maya / 3DSmax controls. - Parenting, unparenting, showing you visually what the relationship is. This is shown as a tree in the list of objects. - Sound entities (you can interactivly hear if the doppler, distance, etc is set right) - Lock/unlock, hide/unhide objects. Thats it! No lightmapping nothin'! You can import lightmapped files fromout Gile[s]. Just a stable, decent, lightweight entity placement tool with the power to customise. |
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| >>The difference is that TGC has to do things like that to hide the problems with their self created products, to keep the people quiet and find new idiots that throw some bucks in before they realize that they were tricked. Maybe I'm coming late to the party but "tricked"? Is gile[s] that bad? |
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| Yepp that would be ok as well. Wasn't droplet something like that? I feel the same, a 3D game language without a base 3D Tool to create worlds for it, leaks to some point. |
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| Well, some people like to program, some don't. I am leaning more towards the don't, these days, although I used to, so I would probably prefer some higher level tools as well. |
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| physt: no gile[s] is superb and its done with Blitz3D |
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| i dont think it would be a good idea, your buying a programming language, not a game construction set or even something like game studio (with its quake like editor whatsit) an inbuilt editor would be a huge put-off and crap |
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| Yeah.. I'm praying the 3d module doesn't try and do too much for us. |
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| Nobody said inbuilt editor. People are saying suite. There is a difference, usually in that it's an optional extra, a nice little something your vendor is selling you which helps the programming experience, should you choose to buy it. As a side note, even if Max3D does do too much, which is unlikely, being that it's open source, that isn't a problem. Hack it down to what you need. |
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| hey if BRL was run like a real company then tools developers would be able to stake their company's livelyhood on the language, and they'd have the confidence to build tools. they'd know there were *enough* people to buy it and *enough* of a company behind the language that they would not be creating products that would be orphaned in the front. Mark said in his blog that editing the home page was about the extent of the 'marketing' (his quotes) that he was going to do for BlitzMax. What kind of confidence does that give me to base my company and my development on this language? I want him to make a lot of money, and as a coder he just obviously doesn't 'get' marketing. he needs to 'get' someone serious to run the company. someone who understands marketing and hiring and running a company in general. |
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| You may not agree with our marketing philosophy but it would be polite of you to be a little less insulting. |
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| Hmm. Sounds like a [stop swearing on these forums or be banned -- BlitzSupport] idea. |
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| being that it's open source Where was this stated? As far as I know the licensing terms of the 3D module have not been discussed publicly by BRL. You may not agree with our marketing philosophy but it would be polite of you to be a little less insulting. What marketing philosophy? *Rimshot* |
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| 'Open source' is not a licensing term. It simply states that the source is viewable. Like all of the BRL.Max modules and the compiler source when it's released - you still aren't allowed to do anything naughty with it. |
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| I highly doubt the source to Max3D will be available, as then people may end up posting large fixes to it in the Module Tweaks section, and those without the Max3D module would be able to view them, and thus code is given to those who haven't licensed it. You know, that whole thing. |
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| You could do that already and it is already forbidden by BRL License. But I think the new modules might result in module own board sections if they don't become part of standard version. |
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| I also think if would be cool if BRL hired people to make tools that come with blitz products. |
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| Well I think that's why we have skid and co., actually -- an intern wouldn't hurt. Say a remote, unpaid, intern. *Cough* |
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| .. with a big nose? ;) LOL |
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| hey if BRL was run like a real company then tools developers would be able to stake their company's livelyhood on the language, and they'd have the confidence to build tools. they'd know there were *enough* people to buy it and *enough* of a company behind the language that they would not be creating products that would be orphaned in the front. What is a real company? I wasn't aware you could register for limited liability with a make believe company. In either case, any developers foolish enough to stake their livelyhood on one language or product, particularly one that isn't a de-facto monopoly, deserves to go bankrupt. Sensible companies don't gamble like that with other peoples money, but tend to spread the risk out across several products or target audiences.I also think some more high-level tools will be needed in the long run. But then again, BRL have to come up with new and exciting products after Max3D. I should point out that there already are some high quality content creation tools developed by Blitz users in Blitz, and that are being sold commercially. |
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| What's stopping people like you and I from generating our own content creation tools? Just think about it. The editor you create could allow the user to type out Blitz source code for each object there is, which can include calls to functions / methods of your own. Then all you do is save out a direct Blitz source file. Then the user simply includes that in their game project, and away you go. :) You could also include a base working include file, to hold all the standard operation functions, instead of applying that to every build of the user's code. No doubt this is not going to be as easy as it looks. You'll still have to create your editor. But nothing worthwhile is ever really that easy. |
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| This could be a community project (that I wont be involved in cause I dont own Bmax) |
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| I dont believe in community projects. Its just too much people working on one product and blaming eachother for the fact it ain't finished. The best tools are usually created by 1 or 2 people. I really think BRL should promote Max3D more and contract a Frecle.net kinda guy! It believe it will turn BlitzMax into a better product overall. And, it will attract much more people. I think the scene is a little bit "dead" compared to some years ago, but that might be a wrong impression. It can use a fresh approach. 1. A better website 2. BlitzMax tools 3. A decent games showcase 4. An integrated shop for Blitz products: BRL gets a certian percentage, the rest is for the author. |
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| What's stopping people like you and I from generating our own content creation tools? Take your pick: Skills - Time - Commitment - Money - Stamina. There are lots of excuses to do nothing. The best tools are usually created by 1 or 2 people. Got any examples? In my experience all the best tools are written by specialists in their field, organized by a design team. No solo or 2 man teams could possibly hope to control the complexity of such an endeavour. |
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| Jeroen is completely right. The more you advertise, the more users you get. The more users you have, the more of those rare awesome projects are created. If my product is making more money, I can invest money back into it, and give it better support. For example, if 3D World Studio starts making a lot, I am going to spend money having more textures and meshes made. Even if I barely turn a profit on them, that money would have just gone to taxes if I hadn't spent it improving my own business. Since I improved my site, I have been getting some very interesting offers from very interesting people. It's like you're going to a meeting. You don't show up in shorts and a T-shirt, and hope you will be saved by the graces of your personality. How you present yourself indicates your level of professionalism. You show people that you care enough to put some effort into your appearance. |
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| Exactly !!! |
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| Or somebody else (IE: The end user) could make a really nice and modifiable editor. (Not-so-shameless plug: The real version coming in the next few months) I don't see much wrong with BR's web site as I see it (with the "minimalist" theme). The default theme looks a bit unprofessional though. Perhaps a modified web site would be a good idea, though, since this one has been around for a while. |
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| A language is not going to attract a lot of people if you have to write your own tools. Its just the trend, and neccessary because games get more and more complex. What a load of bull! C++ attracts alot of attention, and I dont see a ton of tools out there to build worlds for a 'specific' genre of game... If you believe as such, then go over to THG and get their stuff and find out how much you can really do with it.. When I write my own tools, I know that I am gearing it to ME, not anyone else, and thus I will get the most out of it rather than some general piece of crap! You may not agree with our marketing philosophy but it would be polite of you to be a little less insulting. I have to agree with you Skid! They are very insulting with this for some reason. I personally care not wether the whole world is using Blitzmax or not, and would think that I would rather allow BRL to spend as much time on their product as they can. To have them spend enormous amounts of time marketing a product would be counter productive for me (sorry to sould selfish here). Sure, TGC can market the hell out of something, but all of that is crap to me. I can see why they are so good at marketing (because their products are junk). Should BRL have a suite of tools or contracts with tool developers? To answer a question with a question is WHY? If others are creating tools you can use, why should BRL contract with them? What is in it for BRL? I mean they advertise for them freely in the tools section and randomly on the front page, why should they add more expensive suites of tools to THEIR product listing that BRL shouldn't have to support (but would be expected to support since they are selling it). Why should BRL have to take the blame for companies like Aliencodec and such who don't respond to their customers for support? So for BRL to offer tools for their language is upsurd in my eyes. If you really want to create a game then your going to have to do the work, end of story. If others have created tools you can use then good for you, but I don't think that it is BRL's responsiblity to give you a creategame() function! You want AAA game, but you don't want to put AAA effort, perhaps you should rethink your ambitions. Since I improved my site, I have been getting some very interesting offers from very interesting people. It's like you're going to a meeting. You don't show up in shorts and a T-shirt, and hope you will be saved by the graces of your personality. How you present yourself indicates your level of professionalism. You show people that you care enough to put some effort into your appearance. True, but that's given the perspective and mindset of the person your metting. I can honestly say that I base a product on how well they layout their site. If the site is all sell sell sell then I steer away from it. A good example is codersworkshop.. Back when it was blitzcoder, it had alot of usefull information and I enjoyed going there. Now that it's codersworkshop its all geared twords sales and their site is impossible to go through to find usefull information. BRL vs TGC just look at their userbase. You have much more productive people at BRL than at TGC. They may be making more money, but consider the complaint/satisfaction ratio of their products. I may be bias to TGC, but that's because I know they will hype something up more than they can deliver for. |
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| What a load of bull! C++ attracts alot of attention, and I dont see a ton of tools out there to build worlds for a 'specific' genre of game... Yes, but Blitz is still marketed and developed as a game language, isn't it? C++ on the other hand is not! You're comparision is a load of bull! And again...like mentioned IN THIS THREAD (See Dreamora's reply)....FORGET THG! "If you don't like this, go there" is just a stupid reply, no one can do something constructive with this lame sentence. Dark Half, I am mainly active in the advertisement industry and I can say you: layout and appearance does matter. Halo said it right when he compared it to a business meeting. You are asking yourself "why market" - Halo already answered it in a post above yours already! To be succesful you have to know that FORM is important, not the product itself. You can sell people sugar water with a flavour, or you can sell TROPICANA POWER DRINK. The latter sells, the former not. The same content. Different form. BRL should do the same. Especially when their latest product kicks ass. And this doesn't mean you have to say "sell sell sell" like you stated (yes I also walk away when people do that). But do you see everything so black & white DH? Is there only "no marketing" and "sell sell sell" to you? Both situations are bad. Why are you so negative when marketing can make a product and company healthy? It would also benefit you as a developer! Halo mentioned it. Also, why do you think that if BRL does good marketing, advertisement and produces tools, the userbase will be less productive and be less satisfying? Because that is what you are saying in fact. Why this lame comparision with THG and BRL? Why not compare Unity and Blitz, or UnrealED and Blitz? Unity and the Unreal users are VERY productive, both commercially and independent, the community is very active, and the products are marketed professionally. Now THAT is a comparision I think. Now THAT is something that's a goal BRL could try to reach. You're being so negative man! Dont forget: BRL already markets themselves or else they would not have developed this site. But they're doing it wrong, IMHO. So this discussion is not about wheter they should or shouldn't, its a discussion about HOW they should. |
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| I suppose they could do with better marketing... The only way I found Blitz Basic was because it was returned by Google in a search for Dark Basic :) While it seems silly to be telling BRL to market themselves better, doing so would make the community more active, and draw in more people with good knowledge of stuff -- which would positively affect what I can do with Blitz products. |
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| So this discussion is not about wheter they should or shouldn't, its a discussion about HOW they should. For what purpose? You think you're bringing anything new to the table? Ragging on BRL for their marketing efforts (as they are) is like everyones pet peeve around here.Personally I find myself agreeing more or less with what Dark Half is saying. Why do you personally care how much effort BRL puts into advertising? Do you own stock? As long as they're making enough to stay in business, why should you care how they market themselves? It's not like Mark and Simon are new to this whole software thing. Heck, they've been making and publishing software since I was a kid! So they aren't doing it the way you would do, or the way the guys over at TGC are doing or the guys at Idigicon, or the guys at Epic. Is that against the law or something? Also, why do you think that if BRL does good marketing, advertisement and produces tools, the userbase will be less productive and be less satisfying? Because that is what you are saying in fact. I'll take a crack at that. Marketing, advertisments and tool production takes time away from BRLs primary business - the development of a high level games oriented programming language. Now less time spent on their primary business (what we're actually good at, if you consult your books) means that upgrades and patches will take longer to develop - when upgrades and patches take longer to develop the people who rely on these upgrades or patches in their current projects will naturally get less productive, as a particular show stopping bug grinds production to a halt (or worse, makes them switch to a different product), while they wait more or less patiently for BRL to release a long overdue patch or 3D module.Sure marketing and advertising will help you ship products - no questions there - but long time commitment and focus on primary business areas, will keep existing customers happy in the long run, and generate a lot less animosity (like how everyone hates BarkBasic, for not being what it's cracked up to be and because DBS [now TGC] had a reputation for outright lying to their customers). Dark Basic in it's current incarnation is still effectively broken software. At no point in it's 3+ year lifespan was there ever a version that could reasonably be considered "safe for production" - this despite the fact that DBS had more funds, arguably better marketing and more full-time employees than BRL. Personally, I prefer the better product to the better marketed one - but I realise that as a person who slings marketing BS for a living, that concept may seem alien to you. While it seems silly to be telling BRL to market themselves better, doing so would make the community more active, and draw in more people with good knowledge of stuff -- which would positively affect what I can do with Blitz products. Be careful what you wish for, and all that. While I can see how what you're saying seems logical, the facts of the matter seems to indicate otherwise.First of all, a more active community would seem to suggest a less productive one. Secondly, and more importantly, the larger the community, the larger the signal/noise ratio, thus making it much harder to actually find what you're looking for. For instance I never visit the code archives anymore - there's just too much information there, and digesting it all to see if the code I need already exists, is often more time consuming than just writing it all from scratch. |
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| As long as they're making enough to stay in business, why should you care how they market themselves? They don't really do that. Every single crapy little basic language is more known than Blitz, no mather how worse it is ... Making it harder to find some specific stuff is not really possible as the search system is that "useless" that you normally don't find what you are looking for anyway ... |
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| When I used to work in Blitz3D, I got snubbed by a lot of artists because they had never heard of it, and told me the site looked unprofessional, or like a toy. True story. |
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| Blitz has great "word of mouth" marketing. When looking for a language to port my game to, I came across a slick shareware program that I was very impressed with. The author was kind enough to return my email and said he used Blitz as his development platform. I purchased my copy of Blitz Max a week later. |
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| Flameduck For instance I never visit the code archives anymore - there's just too much information there, and digesting it all to see if the code I need already exists, is often more time consuming than just writing it all from scratch. Well, to be fair, a search function would help greatly. ;) Halo When I used to work in Blitz3D, I got snubbed by a lot of artists because they had never heard of it, and told me the site looked unprofessional, or like a toy. True story. That seems a little silly. What do they care what language you're doing the game in? Seems like they're getting their noses in places they don't belong. It isn't like you're critiquing their choices of art programs (right?). |
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| That seems a little silly. What do they care what language you're doing the game in? Seems like they're getting their noses in places they don't belong. It isn't like you're critiquing their choices of art programs (right?). You wouldn't believe how arrogant some people actually are. For example, check out the TrueVision3D forums. They consider anything not written using C#,C++,Delphi,VB....etc "unprofessional toys" and the people who uses them are "stupid". Hell, even the Torque3d engine is considered a joke to them. Ironically, I have yet to see anything professional comming out of TV3D and not a single game or app written using it was even sold (to my current knowlege)...yet it's considered "professional" cause it requires a "professional" language to use it. Good thing too, cause I nearly shelled out $150 for nothing...glad I saved $70 and spent it well on BlitzMax. |
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| Having the best product of its class is a pretty powerful marketing tool ! |
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| I do not own stock, but I do care about BRL because when the company grows, their products will grow (faster) because they can hire an additional programmer, they have more resources, etc. It's in my best interest to see the company get out of the "underdog" situation, which is the case IMHO. |
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| Having the best product of its class is a pretty powerful marketing tool ! Sure, but it isn't magic. People can't buy what they don't know about. |
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| I do not own stock, but I do care about BRL because when the company grows, their products will grow (faster) because they can hire an additional programmer Except you've just argued that they should hire marketing people, not programmers. It's in my best interest to see the company get out of the "underdog" situation, which is the case IMHO. Is it really? Maybe you just haven't thought it through? You realize ofcourse that the larger a company gets, the less valuable each customer is as an individual?In fact it would be in your best interest if you where the only customer BRL had, and they did exactly what you told them to. |
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| TGC consists of 3 people and they can do marketing as well. And they sell like hell although the language itself tops any other language when it comes to bugs and "stone aged" (types are not by ref for example, making it impossible to create datastructures with them. not even counting bugs). Its not like they would need to spend much of money on their marketing. Its more that they should care more about engine listings, common places where people would search for it (for example artists often look for a simple language to bring their static visions to life but can't find much usefull stuff. At least its what I got from my experience as longtime curvy betatester and moderation team member) Having mouth to mouth marketing is a great and very important thing. but there are 7 billion peoples on earth and only several thousands even know that blitz exists, of its strengths and I don't think that this people know people that know people that know people ..... to even have the possibility to spread the word of Blitz to others. The community has a quite strong tendency to flock with each other than with new people ... I might be totally wrong ... *I will go on as always, sending people here if they are looking for a simple and powerfull way to bring their visions to life* |
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| TGC consists of 3 people and they can do marketing as well. How do you figure that? Who aren't you counting? |
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| I'm counting all 3 of them. 2 Programmers that are doing that since Dark Basic and Rick who does support, homepage, marketing. Which ones are you counting then? Board moderators or module writers? I don't count them to TGC as they aren't. They just use TGC to sell their stuff like halo or fredborg too. |
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| Well here's who I'm counting: Lee and Chris Bamber, the two brothers who started it all. Richard Vanner, who as you point out handles support and what not. Mike Johnson, programmer hired to make DBPro not suck. David Milton, programmer hired to make Dark Game SDK. Now that's at least 5 by my counting, and I'm sure there are some I've missed because I haven't exactly been following the going ons over at TGC very closely (like the "new" IDE, which if memory serves was/is written by a 6th person, whose name escapes me at the moment). I'm counting people who are recieving monthly paychecks from TGC, that's what I mean when I say employee - someone who is hired by a company to to produce something (in this case software) in excahange for a regular pay check. |
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