Why don't you use BlitzMax for game programming?
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Programming/Why don't you use BlitzMax for game programming?
| ||
| BlitzMax is my favorite game programming language, but it lacks a good community who are interested in programming games I think. |
| ||
| I'm sure there are plenty of people using BlitzMax for writing games. Why do you think there aren't ? Because the forum is not so noisy as other places? |
| ||
| I'm using Blitzmax for writing games. Have done for nearly five years now. |
| ||
| Because the forum is not so noisy as other places? Exactly! |
| ||
| It's because we're busy doing stuff. |
| ||
| I think Darkbasic community is full of kids or teenages there hence why they have so much time on their hand when come posting their forum! Looking at Darkbasic programming language, I have say Oringal Darkbasic was better due tight knitted commands where darkbasic pro had too many commands and in fact, some of them are laughable commands that not need! |
| ||
| Me as well, I hope to release a new game real soon. |
| ||
| I wrote three successful games with BlitzMax. However, support from Mark has all but disappeared, which means as a commercial developer I can no longer use BlitzMax for games, though I still play around with it for my own experimentation. I could easily list a dozen features that I would want in "BlitzMax 2.0", and I would have been happy to subscribe to an annual subscription program to support Blitz Research. Alas, this is not to be. I have began using Unity3D for my future products. |
| ||
| I wrote three successful games with BlitzMax. However, support from Mark has all but disappeared, which means as a commercial developer I can no longer use BlitzMax for games, though I still play around with it for my own experimentation. As a hobbyist developer and a BASIC lover though, I don't care much about whether the language is supported or not, and I don't use BlitzMax for insulting things like prototyping and experimentation. I use it for making full-blown PC games. |
| ||
| However, support from Mark has all but disappeared, which means as a commercial developer I can no longer use BlitzMax for games I don't understand this, for two reasons.First, BlitzMax has hardly been abandoned. It still has this forum and while it might be quiet, just look at the quantity of information to be had. If support had truly disappeared this site would have gone. The community (I hate that word!) supports Blitzmax. Second, I don't get why you can't use Blitzmax any more. Mine is still working. The only reason I'm leaving Blitzmax is because I want to target other platforms that Blitzmax does not support. However, I could, if I wanted to, continue making games with it for years. |
| ||
| I could easily list a dozen features that I would want in "BlitzMax 2.0" I like lists :-) |
| ||
| I wrote three successful games with BlitzMax. However, support from Mark has all but disappeared, which means as a commercial developer I can no longer use BlitzMax for games, though I still play around with it for my own experimentation. I could easily list a dozen features that I would want in "BlitzMax 2.0", and I would have been happy to subscribe to an annual subscription program to support Blitz Research. Alas, this is not to be. I have began using Unity3D for my future products. http://www.blitzbasic.com/logs/userlog.php?user=8077&log=1889 http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=102707 It's not like BlitzMax will die with Brucey around here. |
| ||
| The only reason I'm leaving Blitzmax is because I want to target other platforms that Blitzmax does not support. Whats on your radar Dave? Unity? |
| ||
| I like lists :-) I would take that as an idle comment from any other man. Have you seen what Brucey is working on recently, Tachyon? |
| ||
| @tackyon If you use unity I think it is for the 3d support and mobile targets. Otherwise I can't see any other reasn What are the features you like to see in bmax? Cheers (in any case writing a game series with a limited tool like BlitzMax is great!!) |
| ||
| Whats on your radar Dave? Unity? I honestly don't know. My game just went beta a few days ago so I'm cracking on with getting that finished and out of the way. Then, I'll have a little free time to play around with other products and yep, one of them will be Unity (as much as I detested it the last time I looked). |
| ||
| Since my post seemed to stir up some comments, I'll elaborate a bit: ...I don't get why you can't use Blitzmax any more. Mine is still working. Yes, it works, for now. But OSes continue to change, and unless someone is going to guarantee me that BlitzMax will continue to work with every new version of Win/MacOS/Linux, then I can't depend on it. This is not my "hobby"; this is my job (my company) and I need to use a product that I know is 100% supported by it's developer. It's also not just a support issue, but also I need to know that the language will grow to support new technologies. A good example is the whole "64-bit" debate. I know we don't need 64-bit support now, but at some point 32-bit apps will be as archaic as 16-bit apps are now. This is a matter of future-proofing the language. re: switching to Unity3D: If you use unity I think it is for the 3d support and mobile targets. Otherwise I can't see any other reason. Those are two very good reasons, aren't they? I was here at the start when BlitzMax was launched, and I looked forward to the 3D module that was never fully realized. Secondly, just like I mentioned above, BlitzMax needs to grow, to evolve, to be thought of as a relevant, modern language. I'd love to see support for iOS and Android platforms. Have you seen what Brucey is working on recently, Tachyon? Absolutely! Brucey is the best thing that could have happened to BliztMax. His continued dedication to it is awesome. I only wish Mark would hand the reins over to him and let him work on BlitzMax 2. I like lists :-) Me too. My dream for BlitzMax 2.0 would be: - Target platforms of Windows, MacOS, Linux, iOS and Android. I don't care about browser targets like HTML5 and Flash, nor am I concerned with video game consoles. These five OSs that I listed are driving every major computing platform today. They should be supported with BlitzMax. - I'd like to see BlitzMax 2.0 "adopt" an open source 3D engine (such as Ogre3D) and fully implement it through native syntax and complete documentation. Yes, I know there have been numerous attempts by the community to do this, but it needs to be done at the developer level so that the module/wrapper stays up-to-date unlike every other community project. Better yet, let's get Josh on-board and give us back native BlitzMax access to his Leadwerks Engine and editor. - Same as the 3D engine, we need a more robust open source audio system integrated into BlitzMax 2.0. My #1 customer support issue is missing/faulty sound on Linux. Plus, I'd love native command access to 3D audio and reverb effects. Yep, I know all about the community wrappers (FMOD) but I need this to be supported by the developer. Community projects always grow cold when the person who starts it is tired of supporting it. - How about a dependable way to play back video? I've asked for this for 7 years. - 64-bit support. - Better multi-thread support (including better documentation and examples). I know BlitzMax has this now, but I think for many of us it would be helpful to understand how we can make multithreaded processes work for us. Sometimes just supporting a technology is not enough- we need examples, real-world situations, and gratuitous documentation to get the most out of it. - Better support for publishing! Let's start by getting easier icon support. Then native support for Steam achievements. Let's not forget in-app purchases and easy integration with popular payment systems. How about exporter options for Apple's App Store (and iOS/Android stores, if these platforms are supported). It took me a week to figure out how to get my BlitzMax app ready for Apple's App store- I would pay a lot of money right now to have an IDE that could automate this process for me. |
| ||
| Thank for the list. It's full of things (someone new to me like appstore and co) really useful and at this point needed. I know Brucey he s doing a lot... But he s sul a human and he can't do all. Mark should take a break from Monkey, read carefully your last post, take down notes, going out for a walking and then ask opinion to Brucey Josh and to anybody else can offer a solution/opinion for what you wrote. There is no reason to have a BMX2 but for a big update (paid) yes Cheers |
| ||
| Brucey is the best thing that could have happened to BliztMax. I'd wish that his modules were more game-related (multicolor fonts, particle effects, etc.)! |
| ||
| Multicolorfonts: write it your own (just walk by each character - recognized command? setColor(x,y,z). ...) Particle Effects: write it your own or use existing ones. Both things are perfectly suited for 3rd-party codes as they can reuse existing commands. Particle Effects can get a full blown system - but then performance will lack/memory usage increases ... @asking brucey and joshk Brucey enjoys doing things for "fun" and his projects are "free". JoshK is doing it as a job, and so for "money". I assume both things wont go together very well. So better stay with Ogre3D or something similar and an official "wrapper" (max2d would then become maxGraphics or so), but it should be kept in mind that the 3rd party lib must support all the platforms that an improved blitzmax targets to support too. @video playback Shouldn't this be doable with some kind of render-to-texture functionality - so you just give access to that texture to a 3rd party lib? Dunno what to do with video sound then. bye Ron |
| ||
| Multicolorfonts: write it your own (just walk by each character - recognized command? setColor(x,y,z). ...) ...or use FontMachine. Particle Effects: write it your own or use existing ones. ...like TimelineFX. |
| ||
| @FontMachine Thought he talked about differently styled text - colorwise. If you want to style your text with bold, italics ... you will have to load "font families" (a normal, a bold and an italic one of the same size). As Bold fonts tend to be 1px larger you might have to take care of it in your font- or textmanager. FontMachine is more a "bitmapfont"-module with included generator. Things like gradients on your custom fonts (glyphs loaded from TTF) could be done using custom image manipulation in your source code (so people could easily replace the used font while keeping overall theming). Same for blurred shadows, but yes, for advanced usage generation tools are the way to go. @TimelineFX Like said, sometimes things tend to feature way more things than needed. But - Bruceys modules are free ones (his modules, and the wrapped sources). The FontMachine editor seems to be a demo and only available as full version when you have blide plus and TimelineFX costs money too. I understand people want to have their jobs paid - but there are users here (like me) who do not want to pay for things which might have free equivalents too, the same way as we offer things for free to others. bye Ron |
| ||
| @TimelineFX As far as I am aware, the module is free. Only the nice wxWidgets-based ;-) particle editor costs money. As for writing your own stuff - not everyone has the time (or even skills) to do such things. Hence, you find something that someone else already made - be it free or otherwise. How about a dependable way to play back video? Do you mean a way to play back any format of video, or something specific. There's a nice theora video module which can play stuff back with audio. Of course you'd have to convert your video if it's in a different format, but I imagine you'd also have to do that with things like BINK. @3D engines This crops up all the time, but I've yet to fully understand why it needs to be integrated as part of BlitzMax itself. BlitzMax is just a language, which happens to include a bit of help for making games. Isn't MiniB3D a reasonably good 3D engine for BlitzMax? I'd wish that his modules were more game-related I'm pretty sure there's a lot there that can be utilised in a game. Perhaps not so much in the showy-graphics part of the game, but more in the stuff that holds it all together. @Linux Audio There are lots of audio modules to choose from which perform well on Linux. I agree that as it currently stands, there are issues with FreeAudio on Linux, but I'd like to think we (as a community, or just Skid himself :-p ) can improve that situation. I did some work removing compile-time dependencies from it - allowing it to dynamically load a given "driver" at runtime, but I didn't look into it much more than that. The next step would be to have a way to determine which one to use automagically, or even add an option as part of your application (eg. Use PulseAudio). Since it is dynamic now, you wouldn't need to have specific libs installed on the system for the game to load. @64-bit Well, it's something I wouldn't mind having too. I've ported most pub/brl stuff to support it, and I have apps/games running native on the three platforms. Windows still requires a lot of work, but the other two are performing very well. There are still some issues with the new bcc which need worked on to get things like MaxIDE running properly on 64-bit, although the MaxGUI examples are all running fine on OS X and Linux (using my GTK module). @iOS and Android The biggest problem I have here is with the need to port the OpenGL stuff in BlitzMax to also work with OpenGL ES 2. And here I'm the first to admit I'm really out of my depth. As for building for ARM, I already have BlitzMax console programs running natively on my Raspberry Pi (which I know is neither iOS nor Android, but covers the major issue of the different architecture). I haven't tried doing *anything* for those platforms as yet though, given the fact we don't have a working Graphics platform yet. My dream for BlitzMax 2.0 would be: Apart from the 3D engine integration, as mentioned above, I'm generally in agreement with all your points. Anyway, as we can see, the community is still reasonably interested in producing games using BlitzMax. :-) |
| ||
| ...but it should be kept in mind that the 3rd party lib must support all the platforms that an improved blitzmax targets to support too. I think that an improved BlitzMax must target to support at least the following platforms: - Microsoft Windows - Xbox One - PlayStation 4 Things like gradients on your custom fonts... And things like texturing. When I was a DOS game programmer I used to program my own font editors and I used to draw each glyph pixel by pixel and I had the freedom to give each pixel what color I want. This "loading TrueType fonts" stuff is somewhat boring for me. |
| ||
| Well you can make a gradient font now. In TImageFont you have _glyphs which contains _image. You can write simple function to apply image to those glyphs and then draw it with default DrawText function. |
| ||
| What's up with all this ios/android/xna/psn mumbo jumbo for a v2 of BlitzMax? Those targets are for Monkey... |
| ||
| Of course you can also feel free to add all these glyphs to one image to have the benefit of "atlases" (you can even have multiple fonts on the same atlas - eg when doing that bold/italic/normal-textblock-functionality). @TimelineFX Sorry, so I misinterpreted the "purchase" link ... just saw that the module itself is MIT-licenced. So if there is a free possibility to write the particle effects or the configuration is done in a readable format (xml) it is not that problematic (as you could write your own helpers if really needed). Sorry for claiming "TimelineFX costs money", it is only the editor which is sold. @Targets I do not care for Xbox, Playstation, Wii, Sega Dreamcast or SNES. I care for Android, iOS, Mac/Win/Linux. Other things are "extras". But even if iOS or X is left out because the new implementations do not work... such things happen. @OpenGL ES: Easiest is of course the whole replacement of the graphics engine ... but you then lose many of the modules (relaying on the graphics part). Alternatively OpenGL ES is another "driver" hooking in - so on Win DX/OGL is available, on Mac and Linux you get OGL and on other platforms it might be OGLES. Maybe more experienced programmers (in the matters of OGL/OGL ES) may see chances to get things running... of course it then needs BMX-NG to compile on a platform using OpenGL ES. @Sound As soon as other platforms get added, the available sound architectures would have to get re-evaluated too. @3d-Engine We have "DrawImage", "LoadSound" etc ... so I assume people would like to have "LoadMesh", "RotateEntity" ... too. Both, sprites and meshes are not game specific things, it might be useful for scientific simulations, sketching some architecture or whatever... but yes, there is no need for an inbuild 3d engine, but it would be nice to have something as core module so users know that it will receive bugfixes/enhancements. If the language gets a revival, people will write modules as they might have done it in the past ("for the fun" - or - "potential sales"). Think the same discussion could be done for native GUI-widgets (MaxGUI was sold too before it got included in BlitzMax), networking classes, ... So it is up on the one who codes things whether to include something in the "basic package" or not. If nobody is willed to help/write OpenGL ES code, it just wont be available on that platforms. bye Ron |
| ||
| I'm liking the list and am in full agreement. The console support would be nice, too. Brucey's Theora module works fine for me for video playback. It would be nice to have support for things like scrubbing and saving video, but I don't care about other formats that require licensing fees. Another thing I'd like to add to the list is a solid pre-processor. It should be feasible to expand the language quite a bit. |
| ||
| Perhaps not so much in the showy-graphics part of the game... I do not care for Xbox, Playstation, Wii, Sega Dreamcast or SNES. However I care machines particularly developed for video games and I care building a BASIC syntaxed powerful abstraction layer between the programmer and the underlying architecture, especially the graphics architecture. |
| ||
| To be honest ive had a look at all options i have available and at this time in using: 1) blitzmax - for making a editor for my game as its so easy to code in as the editor is internal to EdzUp i don't care what it works on 2) monkey - for main game mechanics and games itself. i know i have used Unity in the past BUT at $4500 if you annual turnover is $50k no matter the company expenses its not a viable situation as most of the money i make is either plowed into EdzUp or family life. |
| ||
| I cannot imagine a BlitzMax product being a sold triple-A-title for a xbox XYZ or PlayStation XYZ, maybe I am to pessimistic (but I can imagine someone wants to build "tools" in the likes of homebrew tools). Of course everyone wants something different, but in my opinion the whole language should try to narrow down the supported platforms in a way the least-common-determinator is big enough. I do not know much about consoles and the restrictions they have, even Android or iOS have restrictions regarding file access. Newer consoles will surely have more compatibility to todays PCs so it is more likely to get something working on that platforms too. As BlitzMax is targeted for "indie developers" I assumed that "iOS/android" and the default "mainstream" PC OSes would be enough. Even RasPI is more a "playground" than market, same for Ouya. Of course, nice to haves, but not very effective targets for increasing your potential target group. But as said... before even talking about other platforms, the first move will be to get multimedia features (gfx, sfx) working on ARM. Brucey needs something to play for these nice hot days when everybody enjoys sweating indoor. bye Ron |
| ||
| There is no reason a triple-A title can't be made with BlitzMax. But not all features, particularly graphics-related, will work on all platforms. |
| ||
| I think the problem here is AAA titles can be made with BlitzMax even Blitz3d can its not a case of language but of media. Back in the day AAA was a 2d game with simple graphics now its seen as a million dollar production but its all just media and code which can be done in anything. |
| ||
| I think it will get really hard to get fundings for a triple-A title with the entry "BlitzMax" in your tool chain. This is not a rant versus the language. That's just real world economy and risk aversion. bye Ron |
| ||
| Why do you need to put Blitzmax in the list, Worms was such a title that used Blitz to prototype and look how well that done. as i was saying its not what you use its what you do with it. |
| ||
| I agree with Derron, so he should just put the compiler in the tool chain. However who do you approach for funding? |
| ||
| Ah well, funding is a different matter. I think what you can demonstrate is more important than the buzzwords an investor has heard of, but perhaps that is naive. Guess I'll know soon enough, since I will be looking for funding within a few months. |
| ||
| Good luck with getting fund(ed?). @Worms Think that was some decades ago. Youth of today wants other things. Even the housewives of today are playing different things than they played 20 years ago (if they played then :D). I wont argue about the fact you can produce "nice" games, but you wont be able to mess with the really big players ... just because the big players use different techniques and mostly want you to play with their tools instead of yours. bye Ron |
| ||
| I think what is needed here is to define "Triple-A" and "Big Player." Having worked on the former and for the latter, I can say that there is no ultimate strategy that all big players use. Some are very forward thinking and build their own technology and others are more interested in using tried and true tech (Unreal, etc.). They do usually want you to use their tools because it's a known quantity. If someone builds something in BlitzMax, who will continue their work or maintain it if that person leaves? For a small indie team, it can still make sense to use BlitzMax because they can knock something out much quicker. Triple-A, to me, is really just about the scale of the project and that is more or less independent of the language used. |
| ||
| I dont use blitz max because it seemed so much more complicated than earlier blitzs however I did try monkey and loved the improvement over blitzplus or 3d but when I found out blitzmax language was a step behind monkey I was turned off and in the end I went straight to java. |
| ||
| About 3d engine Is not the need of new engine, but the need of a stable, official and BRL supported wrapper (multi os targeted) (not offense to any of the users that created wrappers). |
| ||
| I dont use blitz max because it seemed so much more complicated than earlier blitzs however I did try monkey and loved the improvement over blitzplus or 3d but when I found out blitzmax language was a step behind monkey So you avoided Blitzmax because the language was more complicated (i.e. more language features), jumped to Monkey which is even more 'complicated' than Max, now discount Max because it is behind Monkey (less language features/complication)? |
| ||
| Heh... that's what I was thinking too ;-) |
| ||
| Well, I for once switched to Monkey, and can't see myself going back to bmax... too many good language features, and the multitude of targets is a very big plus! If I can learn how to create new targets (not based on existing ones), then I'll be unstoppable :) |
| ||
| How do you know I don't use BMax?...Who have you been talking to!?... ¬_¬ |
| ||
| This thread reminds me of "The Parable of the Silly Sod"*, about a farmer who got up every morning to watch the sun rise, because he thought it wouldn't happen if he didn't. * Title may vary from what it's actually really called |
| ||
| @GFK: lol! Well technically 'reality' is a 'perception',an interpretation of our brain. So *maybe* a constant observation of the source code of BlitzMax can revela us new realities! :P |
| ||
| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gb3A-nENWM&list=UU-O183okYKf7E-ZQik-xNSA enough said! |
| ||
| I think it will get really hard to get fundings for a triple-A title with the entry "BlitzMax" in your tool chain. This is not a rant versus the language. That's just real world economy and risk aversion. I disagree. Biz people don't typically care about the details of technology and are pretty pragmatic if something saves time. |
| ||
| This only is true if you just have to deliver a "finished product" ... but not if you have to reuse assets they have, reuse technology they have used in the past ... or just have to work on something "bigger", so you have to work with other sub-groups. Of course there surely exists companies outsourcing everything to you, so it is upon you to generate the desired result/product. bye Ron |
| ||
| I'm making games with bmax and plan to continue as long as possible. Of course finding another engine for the 50% of people playing now with tablets/smartphones is mandatory. The choice for alternate engines is growing but sadly, none is as efficient, stable and easy to use than bmax. |
| ||
| Regarding my comment above which was replied to...it took place over time. Max was too complicated and I never bothered to get into it. But then years later id advanced as a programmer and tried monkey after which I couldnt go back. There were sev eral years between all of these. Typing on phone |
| ||
| Just a point: particle effects and whatever you want to do with fonts are the kind of things you should be able to write yourself. Particle effects are simple as hell but should use some sort of pool, don't rely on the garbage collector. By pool, I mean an area of preallocated memory within which you handle your own memory management. For fonts, just write a routine to write to a 2d array, then one to walk that array and plot points to your graphics surface. And that's for animated textures on fonts, for static it's as simple as setting up a sprite sheet. With all due respect, if you are unable to write these yourself you are not ready to develop games. The prescription: Write each of them yourself, starting fresh, every week for a month. By the end of that month you will be qualified to write them :). And you will have your own framework for each which you will know better than anybody else's framework. And your programming ability will have improved dramatically. For what it's worth, I understand that there are a number of large studios that use Blitzmax, and that supposedly includes EA. hey, nobody said anything about GOOD triple A games :) |
| ||
| If you want to see some games that people made, follow the link below. It doesn't show you ALL of the games made by blitz max users, only the ones on Desura. They are all rated pretty high. http://www.desura.com/engines/blitz-max/games |
| ||
| For what it's worth, I understand that there are a number of large studios that use Blitzmax, and that supposedly includes EA. hey, nobody said anything about GOOD triple A games :) EA at last call bought a license for Unity, I have never heard of them using BlitzMax |
| ||
| There was a rumor going around a few years ago that they used it. Maybe someone else here will have a source for that. |
| ||
| Point taken, Matty. With Brucey working on a BlitzMax implementation based on the Monkey parser, you may just see some of those Monkey language features come to Max in the future. |
| ||
| Personally I love max but there are areas it could be improved on yeah brucey is doing loads to improve max and tbh I would love to see him take over the reigns of max, but its no longer a one horse race. My problems with max are simply; 1) maxgui - on Ubuntu 14+ I get segmentation faults when exiting a window even in debug mode. Maybe its time to retire maxgui in favour of bruceys module? 2) 32bit - another bug bear but one brucey is addressing I still think Brucey should be taken on by BRL to maintain max and keep it going as it does seem ATM that BRL are concentrating on monkey. |
| ||
| Just a point: particle effects and whatever you want to do with fonts are the kind of things you should be able to write yourself. Particle effects are simple as hell but should use some sort of pool, don't rely on the garbage collector. By pool, I mean an area of preallocated memory within which you handle your own memory management. For fonts, just write a routine to write to a 2d array, then one to walk that array and plot points to your graphics surface. And that's for animated textures on fonts, for static it's as simple as setting up a sprite sheet. Thank you! I am leavin' the BlitzMax scene folks, and switchin' to the Blitz3D arena. |
| ||
| So BlitzMax is no longer your favourite game programming language? |
| ||
| I am leavin' the BlitzMax scene folks, and switchin' to the Blitz3D arena. ...where you'll still have to write your own particle and font stuff? Doesn't compute. |
| ||
| I love blitzmax. It is a joy to program in. Having said that, I shy away from using it these days for several different reasons: Lack of a solid and modern 3d engine module. (openb3d looks interesting, minib3d was exciting for awhile) I am afraid of support getting yanked (further than it already has, stupid monkey temptress!) Fear of 64 bit support never coming to bmax. I implore you, please poke holes in my concerns! Please! I would really like to go back to using bmax! |
| ||
| So BlitzMax is no longer your favourite game programming language? The only reason I started using BlitzMax back in 2012 was a 3D engine called 3Impact. I hadn't used this engine until about 3 months ago I sat down to make a Star Wars (1987) (Domark) clone which would be my first 3D game if succeeded. But just imagine: 3Impact relied on 3D model files even for 2D font and sprite rendering :D :D :D :D and it supported only 1 format unlike Blitz3D! So it was the end of 3Impact and is hence BlitzMax. ...where you'll still have to write your own particle and font stuff? Negative. There is a userlib called Draw3D2 which readily can do both. Even more, it comes with a WYSIWYG particle effects editor avoiding wasted trial & error times. See also what I wrote humbly about Draw3D2. |
| ||
| Lack of a solid and modern 3d engine... Affirmative! |
| ||
| OpenGL is really easy under Blitzmax. Blitz3D is not object oriented. Blitzmax pretty much destroys it. |
| ||
| On paper Blitzmax seems superior to Blitz3D, despite the fact that only Blitz3D offers a printed Manual (I have two). But it's Blitz3D that keeps making me say, "WOW!"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfPHC3tisE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epIGiQPuhSE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdV7CGTIC-k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm9WxxrDwdw&list=UUrxx_vtyvWwluDKmnP4C1aQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cbO-gYhdg4&feature=youtu.be |
| ||
| I still use max on occasions but maxgui does have issues on Linux. Back when i coded using win32 or OSX it wasn't a issue but lately ive been coding a lot on Linux. If I'm not using a GUI module I would use max as its simple to use, monkey is just as simple BUT doesn't give you the control due to mobile targets finally I look to c++ as it works with everything. Another HUGE bonus is I also use c4droid android GCC compiler to do prototyping on my tablet when I'm out and about, being able to do that is a godsend :) |
| ||
| >>>despite the fact that only Blitz3D offers a printed Manual (I have two) It doesn't matter if you've got ten printed manuals, blitzmax pulls down blitz3d's pants and paddles its arse black and blue in every respect. Its structured better, its faster, its cross platform, has hundreds of third-party add-ons, it even has minib3d so it's not even beaten on the 3d aspect. Blitzmax is the reason that scores of top-selling games exist. To imply that Blitz3d is in any way better, is sheer lunacy. |
| ||
| @gfk: +1 Blitz3d has more chance of being relegated to retirement than max purely because its Direct X 7 roots, how long with all the upheaval in M$ do you think they will continue to support it? Its days are numbered even now dx9.0c has to be installed to run all the legacy stuff its only a matter of time what with xp's demise and vista's closing fast that stuff will get shut down or pulled. Yeah I like blitz3d but tbh OpenGL has left it behind because of its cross platform roots, yeah windows is still popular but even that is starting to get old. |
| ||
| To imply that Blitz3d is in any way better, is sheer lunacy. Again, maybe on paper it is. But the reality for MY interest is ... Blitz3D F-22: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvNdC-DAMwg More: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blitz3d+f-22 I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying that all Blitz flight sim development I'm seeing is being done in Blitz3D, not Blitzmax. In fact it was the Blitz3D Products page that caught my attention in the first place, the bi-plane flying over water in the mountains. |
| ||
| Yeah I do agree the flight sim side of things is nice in blitz3d but with Warners minib3d adjustment to tglobal you can also have flight sims in blitzmax! |
| ||
| Warner didn't just patched tglobals, he modified. matrix, animation and entity files to add quaternion support. Also, he added terrain support (the flight simulator demo need terrains, not just quaternions). As far as I recall, you made a quaternion patch, too (when I was trying to port quaternion patches in C++, I first started with yours: then, I used Warner's one because it was more complete) BTW, speaking of flight: years ago you made an interesting Elite game in DarkBasic ... have you ever tried porting it in blitz3d/blitzmax? (in the last update of OpenB3D I added geosphere because I, too, was thinking of a similar game) |
| ||
| You mean http://www.monkey-x.com/Community/posts.php?topic=4030 I am looking at monkey to see if its possible to be coded for tablets as well :) |
| ||
| ...blitzmax pulls down blitz3d's pants and paddles its arse black and blue in every respect. Its structured better, its faster, its cross platform, has hundreds of third-party add-ons, it even has minib3d so it's not even beaten on the 3d aspect. The performance of MiniB3D is poorer on my computer than Blitz3D. I see no reason of using imitation when there is the original. |
| ||
| >>>I see no reason of using imitation when there is the original By that logic, then, you should be using raw DirectX. |
| ||
| I wonder if that OpenB3D is better (i.e. faster) than MiniB3D? Has anyone done any comparisons? |
| ||
| The performance of MiniB3D is poorer on my computer than Blitz3D. I see no reason of using imitation when there is the original. Cross platform 3d, object orientated programming, and more control over the entire 3d process with raw OpenGL access maybe. |
| ||
| A Blitzmax vs. Blitz3D rivalry? Eh, don't they play for the same team so to speak? ;) I downloaded the BMax demo yesterday, love it. Like B3D it's small, fast, maybe a bit more polished and modern feeling than B3D. I can see BMax possibly replacing VB6 for some things I do, and I've been needing an excuse to get Linux back on a laptop. So I see it in my future, going to squeeze a purchase in next month's budget. But the fact is that all of the samples, examples and tutorials that I need as a beginner are in B3D. Yet another Blitz3D "flight engine"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfwg83eVasI Maybe this will change, or maybe one day I'll be experienced enough to help make it change (Linux + OpenGL sounds good), but I'm nowhere near this today and B3D is my only feasible option. |
| ||
| Not rivalry as such more the right tool for the job |
| ||
| I haven't used MiniB3D much. Can anyone give some examples of where it is "slow?" |
| ||
| ...you should be using raw DirectX. DirectX hasn't got commands for loading BMP and PNG images, do you know how complex the JPEG format is? Value those loading functions! And if there were a BASIC language with in-line DirectX support, I would stick to that language because it is my dream language. |
| ||
| So BlitzMax is no longer your favourite game programming language? After developing two video games (a Super Sprint remake and a Slap Fight remake) with Blitz3D, I can now comfortably say that Blitz3D is my current favorite game programming language. NB: I replaced "PC" with "Microsoft Windows" in my entry about an improved BlitzMax (the 24th one), which reflects more accurately what I actually meant. |
| ||
| I should really investigate Blitz3D more but I don't know if I want to invest much time into it since it's not OO. Heartbeat: This slapfight? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVTaphXj_Ps I'd love to see that. |
| ||
| Yes :) |
| ||
| If I wasn't targeting mobile etc I might still be using max but ATM I'm trying to get Star Rogue on my tablet so I can whizz around where ever I am ;) Yeah I would still use max for most things if the bugs in the Linux stuff was squashed as I use that mostly for development due to my small netbook being easier to carry than my laptop. Don't get me wrong my favourite BRL language will always be blitzmax mainly because its extendability and use ability is only restricted by your coding skills. |
| ||
| Has anyone compiled a list of the Linux bugs? |
| ||
| Iirc there were loads on the bug forum, most of which have remained for many years. This in turn has caused a 'where is the support for max' vibe to go around. If they were fixed along with the major osx and win32 bugs it would be viable, maybe it could be released officially as a patch update? Heck even c++ for all its years is still getting supported in one way or other! |
| ||
| I'm back!! Four months ago I left Blitz3D and since then I've played with a software rendered game programming language called NaaLaa, but meanwhile reading through a SNES (and N64) magazine Super Play I discerned the advantages of hardware acceleration and yearned+decided to use BlitzMax again! I want to apologize to everyone whom I might offend in the past, at this new beginning! |
| ||
| Hey Terminator! A lot of people have moved on this year. Since the site lost it's community news on the front page it seems very little is released. |
| ||
| I'm making another game, actually two, in BlitzMax. It's still totally solid for indie/casual games and I have a good engine so for now I'll keep using it. If Monkey 2 supports DX eventually I'll change and make a new engine. |
| ||
| So... How is the idea of getting an Enterprise Licensing, where Companies, that make money using BlitzMax, get to pay a monthly fee to see their bugs fixed (faster) in the official BlitzMax Release. So BRL is interested to develop BlitzMax and support it because that's where the money comes from. A company could also demand Brucey's stuff to be in the official Release and be supported by BRL. The rest of the community can participate from the bugfixes and the companies that depend on BlitzMax are sure they can get decent support and it won't fade out like it was with Blitz3D and BlitzPlus. Paying a fee for support is fairly normal with Software. Companies won't bother. BRL can then easily think of releasing BlitzMax for free if the sales settle down like they did with Blitz3D and BlitzPlus but not declaring it Open-Source. Maybe get the once paying customers a Enterprise License for a limited time. Once someone has it and see that there is a development in this field, they maybe are entitled to get into the license fee - and if not, there is no loss because once you baught BlitzMax BRL wasn't getting any money off you anyway. If there are no sells of BlitzMax anymore, releasing it for free with the support fee, won't cost BRL anything but will attract more developpers that maybe create a game or app of any kind that will get them money and once they can get money off their product, they have a demand for good service and the money to pay for it. |
| ||
| I'd pay a support fee for it, or adhoc fees for specific support issues as needed. However, I don't think it should be free for everyone else as that will just lower the entry barrier so there are a zillion people cluttering up the forums asking silly questions and wasting Mark's time. |
| ||
| If there are no sells of BlitzMax anymore It seems that Bmax is still selling, as stated by Mark himself (and one of the reason MX2 is/will be 'supported' and no sold). I really hope that BMax will be - as long as possible - a paid product: a 'open-source' thing is something of anyone/all, but quite none is supporting it at the end... I'm still thinking if a 'patron' like thing is/will be possible for Bmax (and BMX-NG from Brucey et al): but I think there are some legal links. |
| ||
| @Grey Alien I don't think it should be free for everyone else as that will just lower the entry barrier so there are a zillion people cluttering up the forums asking silly questions and wasting Mark's time. Was that an issue with Blitz3D? The Demo was unlimited time free to use so all the zillion people must've been here. I know a time, when I had my friends install the B3D Demo to play my early LAN games. We have a Beginner's corner for unexperienced users where they can ask the silly questions over and over again. Is having more people using and testing your product bad? @degac a 'open-source' thing is something of anyone/all, but quite none is supporting it at the end... I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Is Open-Source not supported? No. E.g. there are several smaller Linux branches that are maintained by some developpers that will happily fix a bug, you call out to them. Patron is a nice idea to help people like artists, who you want to support by your measures to continue releasing art at a faster level than they could've without you supporting them. But I think BRL is less some kind of artist that provides us with certain pieces at a random time but more of a service company. We wanted a programming language that was as easy as BlitzBasic and compatible with Linux and Mac, object oriented and modular. We can have it for 80 Bucks. Now we've played enough with it and are getting money from it and have a demand for a service to get bugs fixes and some features added. But the longer BlitzMax is out, the less people are going to buy it as the marked saturates and a person can only hold one BlitzMax license (if they are reasonable and not paying rent to three appartments for their Single life next to each other). So bugfixing will only pay out in the beginning where the biggest bugs are found and the fix will convince new people to buy the language. In the end when there are only few people left, BRL will need to put a great amount of time in bugfixing and adding to the software to convince the few potential customers to buy it. Just look at the companies selling Linux. Why would anyone buy Red Hat Linux if Fedora is nearly the same and free? Because Red Hat comes with support. There are people, who fix bugs certainly. Not only the ones I found and not only if some guy feels like fixing them. I pay them to fix them and if they won't, I won't continue paying them, so they are actually interested in fixing the bugs I ordered to fix. This is a certainty that companies like. They like someone they can rely on. If BRL offers an "I will fix your bugs first" kind of license, a company can use BlitzMax safely. That's what we see in Linux Ubuntu (Canonical), Red Hat/Fedora, Suse as well as in Java (Oracle) or Apache. And having free Versions of their software keeps the entrance low and that means a developper can train him/herself in this software before investing money. That's why I could easily start a job as a Java developper. I learned Java at School and University because it's free. Now the company I work for pays Oracle for keeping it secure and fixing bugs. Could've gone with BlitzMax the same way. After all, we, that we make games/apps in BlitzMax that sell, will be the head of a company that's searching for BlitzMax developpers one day if this language survives. |
| ||
| The BRL Patreon is here: https://www.patreon.com/monkey2?ty=h If you want someone to listen to your opinion, you can now put your money where your mouth is. |
| ||
| Yep done that. But yeah ultimately I'd rather have a "support contract" (that's what we called it when I made and sold business software to bookshops in the 90s) where I know that if I have a bug, it'll get addressed in a reasonable timeframe, and that if I have a feature request, I can pay to get it implemented. Heck, this is what I do for BLIde and Jundle IDE! Blitz products have kept my indie company going for 10 years now, and I need them to be reliable and up-to-date or it could create a big problem for me. I *really* don't want to have to learn Unity ;-p |
| ||
| ... ultimately I'd rather have a "support contract" ... where I know that if I have a bug, it'll get addressed in a reasonable timeframe, and that if I have a feature request, I can pay to get it implemented. Sounds reasonable, and pretty much standard practice in the business world. Even "free" products, like the public domain sqlite, have a pay-for-support option. |
| ||
| Patreon is not really an option for customers. Its a way for BRL to earn some money, but it does not guarantee that you as a customer will end up receiving a supported product. BRL can just get the money from Patron, create another product, and forget about it and there is nothing that you can do about it. there is nothing tying BRL to support the product. Now I dont mean that Patreon option is a bad one. I like BRL products and I would like BRL to succeed as a company and to provide us with great tools to keep on doing games and apps. But not taking business seriously might actually harm BRL. The people from Basilisk Games dropped off bmax because the see that BRL is not giving enough support to its tools, no one can blame them. |
| ||
| @silver_knee: in general speaking, only widely used open-source projects are well supported (as you posted Linux, sqlite or apache). They have millions of users. And sometimes there are too many forks (in a programming language I don't believe this is a great thing, it brings to incompatibility, confusion in the final user etc) For 'small' project (like Blitz3d, BlitzPlus or in the case BlitzMax) the participation-level (if we want call so) is very low. We have 2 examples already: blitplus and blitz3d (even if they are targeted to specific hardware/system etc). So I prefer still to have a paying product/service (in any form) - that means the project 'has' a value - than leave it just open. ps: considering that BMX is 'quite' open (excluding the compiler itself), it quite easy to demonstrate that there is just one (1) user (I know) that is supporting/enhancing it. Are you sure that if BMX is open-source things will change? |
| ||
| Yeah I'd prefer proper paid support than a general Patreon too. |
| ||
| @degac I think we talked past each other in this point. I don't want to have BlitzMax GNU-like open-source. I like the way it is open-source now. I would cut the 80$ and make it freeware but this is just an option. A idea to get even more ppl involved so it can be "widely used". I'd like to have a paid service that will fix bugs and widen the standard toolset of BlitzMax. Making TMap an abstract class and providing different kinds of maps for example. I'm with Grey Alien on the patreon. Also it states "Your support will help fund the development of the Monkey2 programming language". That's not what I want and not what I think makes sense: BRL should expand Monkey and BlitzMax, not replace them with a new product. The only reason BRL does this, is that there is no other way to make money offering "lifetime support" which was like 15 years for Blitz3D. I think this is the wrong idea. I like the idea of having BlitzMax that is still so near to hardware that it can use pointers and interface with all sorts of c code and having Monkey for maximum flexibility being as abstract as possible. Get the interfaces and generics from Monkey into BlitzMax, add a support contract for both languages and I'm happier than ever. |
| ||
| Mark stated time ago his idea about the 'price' policy of his products: pay once and then stop. On Monkey's forum there were different threads about different price strategy (annual fee, paid modules and so on). With MX2 he choosed the patreon-thing: maybe it's not the best thing, but I hope it will work: I still have no idea what could be IF in the future MX2 will not meet the users request/expectations... I still don't understand (but it's a useless thing at this point) why Mark didn't bring back BlitzMax and changed it to integrate the MX1 things (interfaces, generic class...) - of course at a price for the final user. I really doubt that the cost of re-inventing the wheel is lower than changing/updating Bmax. Moreover - technically - I think MX1 is open-source-sort of (I saw a fork - mungo? - maybe of the mojo module). And MX2 will be open-source at the start. It's not already quite chaotic? |
| ||
| There should be a rule. When a company no longer wants to develope her product like xors3d They are obligated to turn it open source.. It's not fair that ppl buy stuff and relay On a product that get abandoned after several years.. |
| ||
| I still prefer an Annual Subscription for BMax. Pay $80 initially and use it forever. Pay ~$50 per year to benefit from new features and extensions. Stop subscribing whenever you want if no longer useful. Simple for users and Blitz. Edit_1: To be clear, each time you pay you would receive 12 months of updates and bug fixes. Edit_2: I tossed out $50/year for subscriptions hoping to get Mark's interest. How about maybe $25/year for getting Blitz users interested in subscriptions? |
| ||
| There should be a rule. When a company no longer wants to develope her product like xors3d They are obligated to turn it open source.. Mark already did that for Blitz3D and BlitzPlus, so we can't complain. |
| ||
| I'm talking globally mate |
| ||
| There should be a rule. When a company no longer wants to develope her product like xors3d They are obligated to turn it open source.. I wonder if MS and Apple would participate in that scheme... could open a whole can of worms that one :D |
| ||
| There should be a rule. When a company no longer wants to develope her product like xors3d They are obligated to turn it open source.. Over-inflated sense of entitlement much? |
| ||
| I use BlitzMax for game programming here and I use it to create professional game. About the community , is very nice and I am very happy. Everything I asked was answered from a lots of kind people here. I have DarkBasic Pro too , but is slower than BlitzMax and you need plugins. For example DarkBasic text functions are very very slow and you need plugin. The DarkBasic ide is not so powerful as BLIDE. There are some IDEs but when you try to create one project with a lots of smaller source files and you will have some error , the DarkBasic Compiler doesn't inform correctly about the line of code where the error is. For example if you have a project with 3 large files , one with 5000 lines of code , another with 13244 line of codes and another one smaller with 300 lines of code. Your project will have 3 files. But if for some reason you have an error at the line 11050 in the second file , the darkbasic compiler will not inform you correctly about which line your bug is , (In fact the compiler adds all lines of code) so the line 11050 of the second file is the 16050 in whole game source code. So the compiler will inform you at the line 16050 , without directing you to this line sometimes. (There is not line 16050 because the second file is 11050 lines long). So is very easy to get lost and will never be able to find your error. I lost a complete projects with this problem , suddenly in one project with 100 small source code files , an error appeared in some line which wasn't the correct one. I was forced to create one HUGE file with 50000 lines. It take ages to compile and a lots of page down and page up needed to (TRAVEL) inside your code. Unprofessional way to code. Another worst problem I had with the older ide was when I saved my project the IDE destroyed all of my code and I lost my whole game. If you don't have plugins you are not able to do professional game , for example the core physics of DarkBasic sucks and you need Ageia Physics plugin and now the Ageia Physics , is not supported or the drivers are very old. (There was one plugin with name Nuclear Glory) But was very buggy and now abandoned, I never used it. The DarkBasic is nice but not for professional game making. (The only thing you can do is , quick 3D programming) but you will not produce a professional product at the end , even with nice 3D models or nice effects. The engine is slow , whole language is slow. There is not any GUI system in DarkBasic pro , they had one plugin with name BLUE GUI , but is abandoned now. About in game GUI , there is not any at all. DarkBasic have a lots - lots of Plugins , but you are ending to have pay more than $1000 for plugins , you can create some game , but not professional and fast. The FPS Creator (The old one, the Classic) was nice but very limited and enough to create an amateur game. (You wasn't able to manipulate whole engine , they had the fpscript , which was very complex and not programmable) You can do some scripts but the whole FPS Creator was just First Person Shooter maker , you wasn't able to create other more complex game , like rpg , or adventure , or other platform game. All created the same boring pick up a random weapon , create a quick level with ready made content which all already have them and shoot everything that moves. Those are not games. All create shooter games , whole world have shooter games , I have fed up with shooter games. You wasn't able to do more complex things with FPS Creator , there wasn't any inventory system and the fpscript was very limited , you wasn't able to make any change in the whole game look. All rooms was square and the menus the same , the only thing you could , was able to change few menu images and wasn't very difficult to create new content , you was forced to purchase the FPSC model packs , the only model formats which was more supported was the .x model and .dbo which in each darkbasic pro update was broken. There wasn't any terrain creation system. The FPS Creator reloaded (Game GURU now) is under development , I was a gold pledge but is very complex and incomplete and many years will pass until they will finish it. They publish 3D models and they do not progressing in the core of the application. I think , DarkBasic can't port game in other platform , only in Windows. The game creators have the AGK for this but is a different product. About BlitzMax , have the biggest advantage the IDE (BLide is the BEST) even the native IDE is much better than DarkBasic Pro. The Blitzmax is much faster , it compile the code to flat assembler and is more object oriented and have methods and other things that darkbasic not exist. BlitzMax have MaxGUI and at least IfsoGUI for in game GUI ,(DarkBasic have not any game GUI at all) (Yes both are abandoned) but is better than nothing. Both communities (BlitzMax and DarkBasic) was very helpful , but the DarkBasic forums have one problem , your post will automatically be locked if you are not speak for a short period of time and if you want to discus about some topic or problem you had , you are not able to reopen it or post in the same topic. The forum of BlitzMax is much better in this. In Blitzmax there are other disadvantages , there are fewer plugins , but they work faster. I believe all programming languages have their advantages and disadvantages. About 3D , The BlitzMax , have disadvantage here , I haven't used MiniB3D yet , because the project I am working is not 3D. The conclusion is , I use BlitzMax for game programming a lot. (For professional game programming). I discovered this language much later than DarkBasic Pro. I believe the most important is the community , people have finished a lots of things than the companies wasn't able to implement. |
| ||
| About 3D , The BlitzMax , have disadvantage here , I haven't used MiniB3D yet , because the project I am working is not 3D. And there is Irrlicht :) |
| ||
| Is this is 3D mod for Blitzmax? |
| ||
| Ditto, pal! |
| ||
| I make games in BlitzMax still. I've made all sorts of little patches to the core modules, mostly for fixing linux bugs/oddities. My last released game was The Wizard's Lair, back in 2013. I have two projects going on now, Rising Runner and Genesis: World of Monsters. You can check those out on my site, if you so desire. http://devlin.itch.io/ |
| ||
| And there is Irrlicht Lack of a BlitzMax guide has made me evade from using the Irrlicht module (not everybody has to know C++ language) and after discovering this file which contains over one hundred FreeBASIC Irrlicht wrapper examples and a readable documentation covering - Introduction to basic Irrlicht concepts and objects such as texture, image, font, mesh, node, camera, terrain, particle system, animator and selector - Reference guide to all wrapper functions which are categorized nicely I am now relinquishing the Irrlicht module and jumping onto the DreiDe wagon that I find more informative. Although it doesn't come with a manual etc, with its module source files (which are all written in BlitzMax) you can educe your own and learn lots of things about BlitzMax OpenGL programming. DreiDe hurray! |
| ||
| Arcade game coded in Blitzmax (by myself): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok7R9sviuIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls8W2ZcGRJk Anything is possible ... |
   |