3D Engine Required?

BlitzMax Forums/OpenGL Module/3D Engine Required?

MattVonFat(Posted 2005) [#1]
Hi. I'm impressed with OpenGL. I'd never heard of it before i got Bmax but now i've played around with it it seems really cool. Just one question, is it possible to reate a 3D game with whats provided with BMax atm? Or do i need a 3D game engine to create one?


N(Posted 2005) [#2]
It's completely possible to create a 3D game with what's provided, you're just going to have to write your own code to handle almost everything.


AdrianT(Posted 2005) [#3]
http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/rifa2.wmv

the video above shows a game that was using an engine writted from scratch within blitzmax in less than 6 weeks of the win32 beta launch.

So yes it's possible. Shame Antony disappeared and isn't either able, or inclined to finish his engine.


col(Posted 2005) [#4]
I think you'll find the quake2 and quake3 engines have opengl options as well?


jfk EO-11110(Posted 2005) [#5]
I really hope someone will port (at least most of) the Blitz3D 3D Command set to BMax. Or maybe only a Code Converter. Well, I remember it was said that this will happen. Not very useful if everybody writes his little unfinished 3D engine project.

Anyway. it's still the early days of BMax.


angel martinez(Posted 2005) [#6]
jfk EO-11110, you are right I think we will have to wait for the official 3d module, if we want full 3d features.


AdrianT(Posted 2005) [#7]
I came to theat conclusion pretty early on. I'm waiting for the official 3D module whilst looking to see what alternatives become avaliable outside of blitz. (Not much yet unfortunately). So it looks like Blitz3D is still the way to go.


EddieRay(Posted 2005) [#8]
I'm just wondering how much the official 3D module is going to cost... it sure seems like "BlitzMax" is much LESS than Blitz3D at this point because of that fact, even though it runs on several platforms now... :-(

I'd be happy to start out with an replication of the B3D command set included with the core BMax... and then it wouldn't seem so bad to have to pay for "Unreal 3" graphics routines later...


AdrianT(Posted 2005) [#9]
I'd pay 80$ for B3D functionality, but thats still a fair bit of work since there's more to it than just a 3Drender engine. You need all the entity system manipulation commands in there that currently don't exist.

But complete support for B3D files would be a terrific start :) The best thing would probably be to have an engine with a GL 1.1 fallback for low end systems. As even today lot of older hardware doesn't like GL 1.2 let alone 1.5 which is typical with new hardware.

I also think a Blitz3D module that used the old DX7 engine would be awesome and the best solution for people wanting to make 3D games for low end win32 systems, only thing is, I'd rather have a proper bmax 3D module first and see a B3D module turn up later on when Bmax has matured a little.


EddieRay(Posted 2005) [#10]
After reading Mark's last musings in his worklog, I'm beginning to think that the 3D module for BMax is going to be completely "shader" oriented (he seemes happy to be "bypassing" GL using shaders - but maybe that's just the "high-end" mode or whatever, hard to tell at this point).

It would be unfortunate if the 3D module actually turned out to be something that is aimed at only the high-end, and I can't help but thinking about those three words that eventually turned me to B3D in frustration: Dark Basic Pro.

B3D still has a lot going for it in terms of being compatible with LOTS of systems out there. It's very difficult to be successful producing games for computers (vid cards) that only power-users have... and then only if they can keep their drivers up to date (the big computer-makers fall by the wayside on drivers almost immediately after each system hits the market - so users need to get "reference drivers", if they can).

Already, since BMax is going to be using OpenGL for the "official" 3D module, there will be support issues... given the fact that probably only ATI and nVidia care at all whether their cards support OpenGL (correctly) or not.

I don't know... I'm just throwing out some ideas... ;-)

I'd eventually like to move to BMax, but frankly, I feel kinda let down by the prospect of how I need to pay $80 for BMax "core", without the nice, tried-and-tested B3D command set, and then have to pay more (???) for the new 3D command set, that will potentially be "way cool", but will be much less compatible with Joe User's system. I'd hate to see Blitz go the way of DBPro... sweet eye-candy for the power-gamer with the big-wallet 9800 Pro or 6800 GT, but headache for everyone else... :-(


EddieRay(Posted 2005) [#11]
Oh... and Evak, the "Entity System" and related commands are probably the easy thing to port to BMax (since they're probably very renderer-independent). It's the actual DX7 rendering code that would have to be scrapped for a new "B3D module" for BMax. Since Mark's already writing one from scratch, I hope he's taking time to make his renderer code able to work with the tried-and-tested B3D command set, along with whatever else he has in the works. The entity system of B3D is powerful, very well thought-out, very nice to program, and "object oriented" (in a GOOD way - not just "for the sake of being OO") too...


AdrianT(Posted 2005) [#12]
heh, yeah Garage games is doing much the same thing as far as shaders go. THe TSE version of the Torque engine, which is the regular $100 engine with a new shader based graphics engine. When its out of Early adopters pricing the TSE version will be $300 and recommends a shader 2.0 card in the specs.

Id pay quite a lot for next gen features but would like to see basic support for older versions of GL that lesser cards can still run. Hopefully those old TNT2 and lesser cards will cease to exist soon and we can look at the Geforce 2 and above as entry level :)


EddieRay(Posted 2005) [#13]
Yep... I agree... I bought the TGE SDK a year or so ago, and have been toying with it off and on ever since. It's complex, and it's very geared towards "Tribes 2" style gameplay out of the box, but it's educational if nothing else. ;-)

As far as "lesser" cards ceasing to exist... Dell and the other big boys seem to be content with shaving those pennies off the system prices by sticking the Intel crap in as many computers as they can (the low-end systems probably sell 4+ times as many units as the mid to high-end systems), so it'll be difficult to avoid that inevitability. ;-)


mrmango(Posted 2005) [#14]
Although it would be harder, do you not still have access to OpenGL for lesser powerfull cards?

Although I do hope it does support lower end cards.

Just wonder how long it will take. Still toying with OO and still learning B3D's functions.

I think I am like alot of people, waiting for the 3D engine(module) to arrive.

Mango


xlsior(Posted 2005) [#15]
Although it would be harder, do you not still have access to OpenGL for lesser powerfull cards?


Sure, but if your app runs at 4 FPS, it might as well not run at all, so it's all relative.


Andres(Posted 2005) [#16]
I'm working on a 3D engine called bOGL. And the many of the commands are identical to b3D's, but i still need to work on the sorting of the objects before I could release the next version of it.


Dreamora(Posted 2005) [#17]
There are several problems in a port of B3D:

1. 3D engine is using DX9. Large rewrites due to the DX redesign with DX8
2. BM is OO and most of us refuse to use procedural programming with BM (ie using integer handles) so the whole engine needs to be usable in OO mode not only procedural

The work for such a job isn't really worth a portation of the old engine. Especially as it had some quite bad lacks as missing of S3TC texture compression support for example.

But for the 3D engine it would be great if the core version would be released and the "higher end" features were added step by step so we could start working with a B3D like version and extend its eye candy part as it comes in :-)


WarpZone(Posted 2005) [#18]
I'm not sure, but it sounds like people who've read the devlogs are saying the eye candy stuff is easier to code into Blitz than the 3D engine. :/


Hotcakes(Posted 2005) [#19]
I'd hate to see Blitz go the way of DBPro... sweet eye-candy for the power-gamer with the big-wallet 9800 Pro or 6800 GT, but headache for everyone else... :-(

It won't. Blitz will work.


Dreamora(Posted 2005) [#20]
Think that too. As already Max2D showed with its forced 1.2 instead of OpenGL with usefull extensions ...