What is it with MaxGUI?

BlitzMax Forums/MaxGUI Module/What is it with MaxGUI?

SebHoll(Posted 2006) [#1]
<rant>

Hi Everyone,

As probably a lot of you know, I've been working on a GUI editor for MaxGUI for quite some time, and have come across quite a few bug reports, non-standardised cross-platform functions, and general problems here and there.

I love BlitzMax as a language - it's fast, powerful, and easy, but for applications (which is what I program) it doesn't seem to stand up to its competitors such as PureBasic.

The thing about MaxGUI to me, is that it has the potential to be a really good module (in conjunction with BlitzMax), but it really needs some more development time allocated to it from the BRL team.

At the moment, it seems to be Skid on his own, trundling through the modules as best as he can. However there is only so much one person can do, and the features many feel are missing from MaxGUI, such as colours (win32), more events, a decent linux gui (instead of fltk - brucey's gtk is brilliant), more styles (such as setting windows as always on top, SetMaxWinSize() ), more gadgets (such as hyperlink labels etc, dockable toolbars), and the odd stuff missing from BlitzPlus (desktop buffers) etc. I suppose Skid either isn't being payed, or doesn't have time to do.

At the moment, the Max3D module is still in BETA and MaxGUI is the only module BRL have officially released. Is it just me that feels BRL could allocate more resources to this module so it at least has a chance of competing with PureBasic etc? I hope I can continue my GUI-editor development in BlitzMax without having to convert to PureBasic.

Please post your comments and views here,


Seb

P.S. I know people say BlitzMax is supposed to be used for making games, and PureBasic is better suited to applications, but it doesn't have to be this way. BlitzMax's modular strcuture should allow the flexibility to become the language for whatever purpose it is needed for.

</rant>


Dreamora(Posted 2006) [#2]
I think BRL might generally should add 1-3 people to the team because the whole "allocated" ressources amount behind BM, MaxIDE and MaxGUI seems already to eat most of it and with Max3D (+ BlitzPlus + Blitz3D) the whole situation can only become worse, not better I fear ...

At least MaxGUI definitely needs more work than it currently gets. Its far from what I would call crossplattform. There is stuff that only works on OSX (which strangly gets or got enough to too much attention. It has its 2nd or 3rd evolution *first one was the one created at the beginning which was dropped for OSX 10.3+ GUI* of GUI module although OSX is most likely the smallest userbase with most different OS behaviors)

I understand, that quite some users got their MaxGUI for free as BPlus owners. But I was no BPlus owner, nor do I get any price reduction in case I buy BPlus from what seen on the page, so I think its fair that I want my bought product to be supported and bug fixed. If the windows color / alpha problems can't be solved, no problem. Just remove the functionality from Apple as well until the problems on Windows are fixed or a new module for Windows (XP+) is created which does not suffer all the Win95 API UI problems. (On OSX, the 10.1 UI was dropped for "new" features, while on windows still stone age stuff is used. As example, the used textarea gadget is a Win98 version although there is a new version available for win98 which is default in the only current windows version)


skidracer(Posted 2006) [#3]
I'm likely to growl if people start bashing MaxGUI for something it's not. It was free to BlitzPlus users, otherwise it's a $30 (was $25) module that does what it says on the box and has had a LOT of development put into it to get it where it is today. Apple development especially usually involves long hours and slow progress.

In regards to BRL involvement, Mark has kindly passed maxgui over to me with a free home here at bb.com, all sales from now on will finance ongoing development. There will hopefully be another beta of dev.win32maxgui early next week and then I'll be in a pretty good position to start taking requests.

I personally would like multi column list boxes or maybe a new table gadget.


SebHoll(Posted 2006) [#4]
I'm likely to growl if people start bashing MaxGUI for something it's not. It was free to BlitzPlus users, otherwise it's a $30 (was $25) module that does what it says on the box and has had a LOT of development put into it to get it where it is today.

In regards to BRL involvement, Mark has kindly passed maxgui over to me with a free home here, all sales from now on will finance ongoing development. There will hopefully be another beta of dev.win32maxgui early next week and then I'll be in a pretty good position to start taking requests.

I personally would like multi column list boxes or maybe a new table gadget.



I didn't mean to attack you or the hard-work you have put into MaxGUI this far. Although I did get my version on MaxGUI (which I'm happy with) from BlitzPlus, I would be more than happy to buy the MaxGUI module separately if it was better still.

Quite honestly, looking at the Objective-C source files made for the Cocoa module, you can tell how much work has been put into it. Sorry if it came across aggresive...


skidracer(Posted 2006) [#5]
No problem. Is there anything in particular holding up beta of the advanced cross platform gui editor thingy? It certainly seems to be a very good bug finding tool. Screenies look very nice also.


Mark Tiffany(Posted 2006) [#6]

I personally would like multi column list boxes or maybe a new table gadget.


Agreed. I'd also like to see SetGadgetIcon, in particular for windows.

When you're ready to start taking out requests, I'll dredge up that list we started pulling together a few months back. It wasn't actually all that long...


SebHoll(Posted 2006) [#7]
Thanks Skid. I've had a look through and I've listed the main problems in order of importance...

> Cross platform desktop buffer that screenshots etc. can be taken from
> Cross-Platform Keep Window on Top
> Disabling Windows on Mac
> Tool Windows on Mac
> Disabling Gadget doesn't Disable Children

In addition, I still need to get this sorted out, but it's really hard to demonstrate the problem, particularly because the UI breaks because of the above problems, (thanks for your offer of help).

Hope the list isn't too imposing, thanks,


Seb


tonyg(Posted 2006) [#8]
I'm not pushing MaxGUI as hard as some other people might be but it's done everything I've asked of it so far. From the few applications I've written (generally to manipulate and display stats) it's been superb. The issue I see is many people are using Bmax for varied things. I would like some 2D enhancements, others are crying out for Max3D, some want a stricter OO approach, while others, like yourself, want MaxGUI to be enhanced.
Go to any forum for any of this genre of programming language and you're likely to see the same discussions but on different issues.
As always resource to do these things is limited but, most frustratingly for me, there is no visibility on what's in the pipeline.
In addition, I thought the enterprising souls might have come up with many additional modules : Physics, map editors, GUIs, particle systems etc. There's a few out there but it's all a bit haphazard and many don't get finished.
It's as if BRL have said "Here's an amazing, powerful, easily extendable language so get stuck in as we're not intending to do any more (other than Max3D)". Normally, as in B3D add-ons, it's some brilliant/driven individual that comes up with the extras. It just doesn't seem to have happened on the same scale with Bmax. I'm not one for community projects as they never seem to get finished but maybe we should mobilise ourselves more.
Anyway, lost the thread a bit and I don't have the spare time to commit to anything so I'll shut up.


GfK(Posted 2006) [#9]
I think BRL might generally should add 1-3 people to the team
What a good idea. That way, when Max3D eventually comes out it'll cost $500 because all the extra staff have to be financed. Everybody whinges, nobody buys it, BRL go bust, Blitzmax is no more and 1-3 extra people are back on the dole. Genius.
I personally would like multi column list boxes
\o/

That'll earn you a few extra places on my christmas card list. ;)

Oh - can I put in an early request? Full, complete printer support. If Blitzmax/MaxGUI is ever to be taken seriously as an applications development language, this is vital.

Oh (again) - and while MaxGUI is certainly missing a few things (columns, printers, form editor etc), its a hell of a lot better than A) I've been told it is, and B) Much better than I remember Blitzplus ever being.


JoshK(Posted 2006) [#10]
MaxGUI continually surprises me with its elegance and power. I have yet to run into any problem that couldn't be resolved with a simple API call. It's a very well thought-out system that can make professional apps very quickly.


Brucey(Posted 2006) [#11]
Seb, Hyperlink labels only require a label to be able to catch some events (like mousenter, mousedown), then you can basically do what you like with them - like change the color (on mouseenter) and openurl (on mousedown). I opened up a lot more events for GTK for things just like this (there's even an example in the GTK dist showing a hyperlink label implementation). It's something that should be easy to do for the other platforms too.
Exposing more events for ALL gadgets will add a *lot* more functionality to MaxGUI.

Hey Skid, if you do go the way of a table/multi col listbox gadget, I'd be especially appreciative if you could give me a heads-up on the API changes as you go, as it would allow me to keep the GTK mod in sync with maxgui (rather than trying to play catch up). ;-)

Personally, I think MaxGUI is excellent, especially having the source-code available. Without access to the source I'd never have been able to cobble together a new Linux GUI module. Well worth the small price it cost me, I would say :-)


Grisu(Posted 2006) [#12]
Skid, have you seen the bug reports I have made here?
http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=64596


CS_TBL(Posted 2006) [#13]
Skid: what about this one:

I tested a small app I made at Linux and Mac, but I made a window with flag 0, so I'd expect nothing but a simple window with no features. Yet on Mac and iirc also Linux, fullfeatured windows are created. In this particular case I manually recreated things like dragbars, buttons, etc. to really have my own own window, with its own functionality. Works on Windows, didn't work on Mac/Linux. Well, it somewhat worked, but it was ugly ofcourse, my own dragbar was inside the client area of a normal window.


Garrett(Posted 2006) [#14]
Honestly, for now I'd just be happy with more events for
all the gadgets, then as time goes by, add more gadgets,
functions and features.


T-Light(Posted 2006) [#15]
Sorry to intrude on this thread but Seb mentioned this...

Seb
At the moment, the Max3D module is still in BETA and MaxGUI is the only module BRL have officially released

Max3D's in beta? Really? I've searched these forums looking for a tidbit like this and couldn't find anything other than Mark's last worklog from August, He doesn't mention Max3D's in beta so what am I missing?


bradford6(Posted 2006) [#16]
he meant Beta Andromeda which is about 200 light years away. so expect Max3D around Chrismastime 2206.


SebHoll(Posted 2006) [#17]
Max3D's in beta? Really?

Sorry - I meant ALPHA!


Picklesworth(Posted 2006) [#18]
Which platform does not support Keep Window on Top?

I know that X in Linux does it quite happily, and with Windows it is strangely (dumbly?) done with SetWindowPos(blah,blah,blah,blah,SWP_ALWAYSONTOP) or something like that (my constant names are miles off...). Just look up docs for the command and the right constant should pop out.