BliotzMax needs some advancements
Archives Forums/General Discussion/BliotzMax needs some advancements
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| I discovered another gaming engine called Torque2D and I have mixed feelings about it. I am not advertising it, I want to ask those who know about Torque2D but use BlitzMax instead and find out why. I found that T2D offers features BMax doesnt(and should), but I dont want to blow money on t2d if it's not as powerful or as good as BMax, can anyone share their opinion on this? The things that Torque2D offers that I like are a physics engine, a collision engine, a point and click particle and map editor, along with more features bmax does not easily offer. Specifically, Torque2D comes with a handful of WYSIWYG editors(GUI, etc)! BMax does not. |
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| > can anyone share their opinion on this? I love Bliotz Max. |
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| It really looks like they pay you, lol T2D seems way more powerful than bmax IMHO that's all there is to Torque2D. It -seems-. [edited line]topic was moved and content changed, this line has no sense now ;)[/edited] IIRC I tried T2D one week or so before buying bmax. I was excited with the 3 short-and-simple demos, but hey, they were cool, nice fx, and seemed simple to code, powerful, etc. At that time I thought that would be a good purchase... I began coding and seeing the 'C++ like' scripts and the 'easily-extendable' (to make your app you must overwrite the 'pseudo-gui' code or expand it... what?? that's what they mean by easily extendable?) ... in general the coding philosophy in T2D is, IMHO, not very well oriented. I'd rather code in plain basic ... it must be a hell making a complex game in T2D (i.e, doing it in a smart way, not just throwing bunchs of lines of code into a script). Later I saw Bmax and... here I am, and not even thought I made the wrong decision. What's the importance of having so much 'power' if the language itself is a hell to code, follow, debug, expand, etc? I prefer looking at a code and saying 'this is surely the way it should be done' and having to expand its 'power' by writing libraries, using user mods, etc... than saying 'oh man will this really work?' and crossing my fingers so I'm lucky and can see that hidden 'power'. Sorry if I seemed a bit rude, I don't have anything against the company that develops T2D, nor its other products which I haven't tried (and would like to do someday); but T2D was a great disappointment for me :/ I was expecting a lot more of it |
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| I agree with ENAY. |
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| I agree with enay, but not with flameduck. ... Trust me, that makes sense. |
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| Ok let me express that I am only trying to get information from people that have T2D experience, maybe some people that really know T2D and pick Bmax over it. Seriosuly, I dont want to blow any money on a product that is going to frustrate me. I've bought products before that "promise" things and simply do not deliver Thank you for your comments. I'm just saying I've been using blitzmax for the last week and I've gotten used to the awesome OOP and the kewl sprite effects. I dont see any reason to stop BMax personally. No I dont think anyone's being rude here at all. I also feel that its important to bring subjects like these to the table so that I can hear opinions from people that know much more about this situation then I do. That is the main reason why I posted this topic in the first place! |
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| First of all, there's no way you're going to get an unbiased view. You would might aswell ask Rupert Murdoch what he thinks of Ted Turner. I've bought products before that "promise" things and simply do not deliver I hardly think this is the case with Garage Games.What you should do is look at what you want to do, then compare it with the "out-of-the-box" capabilities offered by Torque 2D and BlitzMAX. It's my personal opinion that what Torque 2D offers doesn't differ significantly from what BlitzMAX offers, and if I where Garage Games I certainly wouldn't put "C++ like Syntax" on a bullet point supposed to sell the engine. If all you care about is game development - save your money and use BlitzMAX. If you want to learn C++, it might be a good stepping stone. |
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| want to ask those who know about Torque2D but use BlitzMax instead and find out why Well....you have the option of downloading and trying out the demos of each product before you make a decision.....why not try both first and see what works best for you. The demo of Torque2d, from what I understand, is exactly like the purchased version, aside from license and script compiling. I happen to own a copy of Torque2d and while I thought some of the demos were interestings, theres that "template-like" feel to all of them.....and it since T2D does come with lots of tools like the built in explosions maker and map editor.....it definately does not have the flexibilities that you will achieve with BMAX. Theres a short tutorial and documentation is quite bland (not that the current BMAX docs are any better). Frankly, after playing with it a while, I got sick of the Torque script implementations and shoved it on the shelf next to my Torque3D. Perhaps I'm not the big fan of point and click type stuff since its not entirely flexible and I can forsee a lot of "workarounds" to do anything complex with it. A couple months later I purchased the PC version of BMAX and have been using it since...... |
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| Warning, mini hijack: so ... FlameDuck, is your nickname supposed to be a) A very hot kind of duck (poultry) or b) a computer game move i.e. I see a flame, duck! or c) something else ...? |
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| Flame = angry post\abuse. Duck = avoid. |
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| Blitz Max syntax is nice (WAY better the previous blitz), but the EXTREMELY SLOW updates towards 3D and GUI just kills. |
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| Aww, but I like ducks, even better than Geese. |
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| John, oh yeah I thought of that one and forgot to mention it. You're no doubt right! |
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| @Matt, I saw your post over at Indiegamer regarding this same topic. My advice is to stick with what you've got and learn it well. If you keep on changing you mind like B3D, C++ , PopCap, Bmax or Torque you're never gonna finish a game - ain't that right Rob :D |
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| Yeah, considering, if you learn its foibles, you can release a pro-quality 2D game in Blitz Plus, and you have the forums and code archives, it's pretty damn good for £25. Max has more potential than Blitz and is being feverishly being debugged and improved as we speak, plus there are loads of people who've done all the hard work figuring it out, and posting code, for you. |
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| Hm.... I choose Blitz simply because I like it, and willing to learn/use it, maybe this is one little point to a game development language. |
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| Thanks guys.. I think its most important for me to stick to my guns. I'm new to all of this.. I will continue just programming in blitzmax and only blitzmax and become elite in blitzmax.. Thanks for your posts. |
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| Maybe I am biased but I can tell you one thing, maybe two. 1) If it was not for BRL & Bltz3d I would not have started writing games. 2) If I had not started writing games I would not be running my own game development business. So yeah, I am biased. |
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| I hardly think this is the case with Garage Games. You obviously never tried Torque 2D. |
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| T2d has too many cool things that dont quite work right for me, especially with the built in scrolling. |
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| Programming games/demos has always been a hobby of min (for 22 years) and it's never been so much fun as in Blitz (also Blitz on the Amiga). C++ with a game library like Allegro is good, but it's quite hard work. I've also been a professional developer of business software for 9 years, and that has been great fun at points, but also boring and stressful. Finally, after using Blitz Plus for around 10 months, I might be about to release a game and make some money, which is nice. |
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| It's my personal opinion that what Torque 2D offers doesn't differ significantly from what BlitzMAX offers Wrong wrong wrong... Bmax's engine and T2D's engine is vastly different. The scripting syntax is a lot different and more complex than blitzmax's... The graphics engine is vector based so that the graphics you toss at it can scale for any size screen (which is a big turnoff for me as I like pixel perfect control over what I display), and it uses a totally different coordinate system if I remember right (0,0 being in the middle of the screen). The networking that torque is famous for has been promised for months now but still isn't in the product... The "early adopter" release that is currently what you buy is far from finished and it's been quite a while since it was updated last (though it's been a month or so since I've looked... I basically gave up on it.) They are two vastly different products. The torque networking code was my big draw and we're still waiting for it. And that's the same with a lot of other little features that are really needed. Now the good thing about buying it is that you get the source to the entire shebang... So you can add whatever you want if you are a C++ guru. So basically... apples and oranges. |
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| Since we're on the subject of bmax vs t2d, I wonder if anyone cares to elaborate on the pros and cons of each? I made this thread a couple weeks back, and I'm still interested in more information about both( in this thread. No need to revive the old ) *EDIT* I guess kanati read my mind :) *EDIT* |
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| I try occasionally. :) |
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| Terms like "doesn't differ significantly" and "vastly different" are relative. The differences kanati mentioned might seem hugely significant to one person (eg. him) and not so huge to somebody else (eg. flameduck.) To me, the difference in script syntax isn't a huge difference, but the difference in graphics type (ie. bitmaps vs. vector) is pretty big. Frankly, I didn't know about the graphics difference; that's kinda weird. |
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| A old quote from the infamous Rob Cummings. "The beauty of T2D lies in it's POWER, I never thought I'd fall in love with making games but T2D brings back the magic and lets me get on with doing what I do best - making my game!" Whether you like it or not there is a ton of cool dev stuff to be found in plans. Here's a couple of plans that give an overview of the engine. Uber Plan 1 http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/20592/7092 Uber Plan 2 http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/20592/7164 there's some good plans for T2D from the developer Melv May, that were written during the development of the app. It's got lots of nice screeniues and videos, plus its great to have the enthusiasm of the developer show you how into his work he is. Something I wish other people would do ;) http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=6664 cool things with collision and physics http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/5416/8031 more related to the above http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/5416/8352 Efficiency and performance http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/5416/8623 |
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| Terms like "doesn't differ significantly" and "vastly different" are relative. The differences kanati mentioned might seem hugely significant to one person (eg. him) and not so huge to somebody else (eg. flameduck.) You're right, I should have been more specific. Personally, in some cases, I would be willing to trade pixel perfect collisions, for the ability to easilly do vector math on them. The networking that torque is famous for has been promised for months now but still isn't in the product. Yeah, well deadlines slip. It's not like BRL have been right on the money with release date estimates either. Personally I don't really mind one way or the other. For now, this is still a hobby thing. |
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| A old quote from the infamous Rob Cummings. "The beauty of T2D lies in it's POWER, I never thought I'd fall in love with making games but T2D brings back the magic and lets me get on with doing what I do best - making my game!" So why is Rob developing on BMAX? |
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| the differencebetween Bmax and T2D in my mind, is that Bmax isn't a game engine. It's a programming language and as a xonsequence comes with no tools worth mentining. Torque 2D is a Game engine, with a plethora of tools tailor made to address common game development tasks. |
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| Currently though you can't actually make exe's with Torque2d. I think anyway. I was reading a couple of posts where people were asking if they could make exe's and the replies were that you couldn't. This wouldn't exactly make T2D viable for say protecting sourcode and media. |
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| The networking that torque is famous for has been promised for months now but still isn't in the product. Name one indie dev tool that was sorted out sufficiently to be fully functional and useable for projects of it's advertised/intended scope within the first year. There is no harm in looking forward to the next great thing to arrive on the indie scene, but before it's been out long enough to be bug fixed it isn't useable in any real sense of the word, and in real terms that is a long long time after the initial, much delayed, release. That's what gets me about the anticipation over BMax-3D and why i'm not even going to look up this 2D verion of Torque. Both of those are likely to be released after their intended dates, and it will be 6-18 months before either are of sufficient robustness to provide the power they promise without the agro of inexplicable errors, yet some indie developers plan and rely on the stable release of promised software in order to finish off their own works. I'm sorry guys, but I think your on a hiding to nothing. What you chose to program in is your choice, but you can only choose from the stuff that's available now. So in my view the tool of choice for an indie to make games right now is B3D, the best for 2D only work is PB. BMax and Torque can both wait until they're ready. Just a personal opinion... |
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| @Amon: If you read the Torque2D website, they say you need a Visual C++ Compiler. I think THAT is what you use to make the said .exe files! |
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the first Torque2D game was published recently, called "Gold Fever" Going to download it and try it out now :) http://www.oberongames.com/game.htm?code=110415417 Also saw someone did what looks like a remake of one of my old time favourite games "Chuckie Egg"  demo: http://www.sunrisegames.com/EggStaticDemo104.exe |
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| Okay, now I'm really confused. Those are obviously not vector graphics. |
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er, it does 2d in 3d via OpenGL I believe, much the same way Bmax does. It does do vector graphics too though. |
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| The rob quote: It is powerful and fun and it did indeed make me feel like doing game dev all over again... while it lasted. I outgrew torque. It's terrific fun and I really enjoyed it, but it's not got the meat and potatoes, and at some point, you're gonna need those. T2D is great for limited games. Blitzmax doesn't have any limitations really. |
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| @Evak. You might also like this Blitz remake of Chuckie Egg (http://retrospec.sgn.net/game-overview.php?link=chuckie). |
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| yeah, last time I talked to rob he wasn't using either Blitz or Torque, played with the pop cap framework and then started doing his own thing in C++. Becky, I already played that one :) ................... I don't really have an opinion about 2D games, I don't play them much and don't enjoy making them. Just thought it worth sticking some interesting things up. If I were going to do a 2D game, I'd probably do it in blitz3D and make a lot of use of the B3D pipeline extensions to do interesting things. I would like to see some plans from mark, showing what progress he is making on the bmax front. It all seems a bit dead at the moment from the lack of communication. Some decent plans would be nice, like the Garage Games ones posted above. |
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| Here we go again. Was it even two weeks since the last time that was asked? ;] As for plans, BRL are working on MaxGUI and Max3D and a bugfix update for B3D is likely to shortly follow Max3D, which is due next year. Oh and MaxGUI was due months ago. |
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| I won't post again, promise this is getting like a fight in the kiddies playground, BUT BlitzMax does vector GFX also :D and with nice little glowing stuff going on. Sadly this remake will never see the light of day 'cause I have not got the time.  |
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| Currently though you can't actually make exe's with Torque2d. I think anyway. I was reading a couple of posts where people were asking if they could make exe's and the replies were that you couldn't. This wouldn't exactly make T2D viable for say protecting sourcode and media. That's because you don't make .exe's for you game. You make an .exe with a C++ compiler and then you make the game with scripts that the C++ .exe reads, compiles, and processes. You then distribute the compiled scripts with the .exe to make the whole game work. I outgrew torque. It's terrific fun and I really enjoyed it, but it's not got the meat and potatoes, and at some point, you're gonna need those. T2D is great for limited games. Blitzmax doesn't have any limitations really. What the heck are you talking about? Torque is the tool that comes with the meat & potatos! If you want to do something to it ... go for it! The C++ code is right there. For Blitz modifications you're at Mark's mercy! Sure you can do many things easier in Blitz than in C++ and just as easily if not more so than the script code. However, it's ultimately Blitz that would run out of steam first ... unless Mark updates the innards for you. |
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| What the heck are you talking about? Torque is the tool that comes with the meat & potatos! If you want to do something to it ... go for it! The C++ code is right there. For Blitz modifications you're at Mark's mercy! To do this with T2D, you need to dig up the C++ source, learn it and work to add it. There are limitations that are annoying and cumbersome in T2D such as collision scaling and so forth. What if I wanted the collision area smaller than the object? I would have to make yet another sprite and scale it smaller, attach it and make it invisible. The author doesn't even see this as a problem to be fixed in the scale collision code! Thats just one problem and I am at THEIR mercy. Did I mention that C++ takes far longer to code in? Then debugging with the Torque console. Okay you asked for it: Torque 2D doesn't even come with an IDE! You have to supply your own. And where is strict? Yep thats right kids, there's no strict so your variables are prone to error. This usually isn't a big problem but read on.... Say you do make mistakes? these are almost impossible to track down due to having to use the console to check for errors. And often it won't accurately tell you where the error occured. And it'll still run even if a fatal error occurs... This is because of Torque Script. In T2D (which is actually pretty hard to modify in C++ ... at least I think so) you don't have a choice. You're limited to using the script pretty much. Conclusion: -------------- Blitzmax games are roughly twice as fast under most conditions to T2D games, and where pathfinding or other techniques are involved then you will need to use C++ with T2D to create an external command as torque script is interpreted. You are forced to use their directory structure, find your own IDE, and work their way through development. If you want to make an editor this involves either using the Torque GUI and script or C++. This is a good and a bad thing. A lot of C++ knowledge is needed. Eventually I thought why the @#!* am I doing all this C++ ? what is the POINT of rapid development like Torque if I'm gonna do all the work anyway? SO I moved to popcap. Popcap is brilliant, but if you put popcap next to blitzmax, blitzmax actually beats it into submission for 2D games. And that is what popcap's for. Yep kids, BM is better. |
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| However, it's ultimately Blitz that would run out of steam first ... But ultimately, how many of us will/have actually reached that limit? |
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| I can't see BMax running out of steam any more than any other general purpose language. It's not tightly integrated to a graphics engine like b3d is, so it's relatively easy to drop pretty much any engine in when you want to "upgrade". |
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| I actualy prefer blitzmax for many things but the lack of tools and 3D being as much as a year away, with no feedback from the developers makes me wonder if it's really something I want to bother using in the future. Particularly on the business end of things. Cygnus did technical things with Blitz3D that I havent even seen in commercial racing games yet, and we have a pretty cool racing game doing the rounds with several possible commercial ventures. The problem we have is lack of portability, and the relatively high spec for an indie games, which leaves us with more commercial publishers and extra risk. Blitzmax and blitz3D has as many advantages as disadvantages. It's more intuitive than C++, and still has the flexibility. Blitz3D restricts you by forcing you to work to Sibleys graphics engine, Bmax doesn't. But its still easier to make a non generic game than in torque. Torque can be pretty limited, but certainly does offer a quick and easy path to simple game dev for less technical designers. It's strength lies in cross platform now, consoles now, and a very strong marketing and promotional machine with all the right industry connections and credibility that BRL don't have. Plus excellent community where the devs show an interest in the people using their tools. |
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| excellent community where the devs show an interest in the people using their tools. Excellent community relations cannot be maintained when talking about the future of the product. If you do your marketting with the carrot method then you need to keep a low profile. That's what Blitz does (how many people are waiting on BMax3D ... it doesnt exist yet), Torque are doing the same (Networking library mentioned above and early adopter program for instance) and yet they are active in their community... well they've already got 1 disgruntled customer (referr to same post). With carrot marketting you increase product loyalty as users wait for anticipated releases, but at the same time you upset some users. Therefore keeping a low profile helps public relations in a better order by giving the users no specific subjects to flame the devs over. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. |
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| no, but some people have a business and need to go elsewhere to get the products done. Some feedback is vital, particularly when things are taking this long. A lot of people bought bmax expecting a 3D module within 6 months of release. currently it looks like it will be 2 years. Thats a long time with limited feedback, particularly when many people expected bmax to be released 2 years ago. I've only been here about 2 years, and have had a lot of fun with blitz, but the lack of information means I can't make plans for the development of my work without going elsewhere and using other tools. I'd really like to stay, but have to make too many compromizes in order to do it. I have one more commercial project in blitz3D that may keep things going for a few more months. But after that I'm really not sure where to go. Mainly due to a lack of information. Torque seems the only viable alternative and has some distinct advantages, but I perfer working with blitz. Most people here aren't using blitz for serious endeavors. For me, since I went independent and quit commercial games, it's been the foundation of my work, and not a hobby. I need to be able to evaluate my tools and make decisions when it comes to having to move on. A lot of serious talented people have already left, many because they couldn't afford to sit around and wait for something that may never come to anything. So I think progress reports are important, even if release dates arent. |
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| Progress reports are meeningless from Torque too. Delivery is all that matters to you and me, not promises. Torque is making promises and BlitzResearch isn't - the only difference is that one of them may fail to deliver. Don't get sucked into the carrot. Use what is available now. |
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| I've only been here about 2 years, and have had a lot of fun with blitz, but the lack of information means I can't make plans for the development of my work without going elsewhere and using other tools. You say that like it's a bad thing. Out of interest, which other tools are we talking about? I'd really like to stay, but have to make too many compromizes in order to do it. It's not like using C++ and whatever engine and tools you feel comfortable with, is something you can do without compromise. Designing, writting, debuging and maintenence are all significantly more resource intensive in C++ than they are in something like BlitzMAX. I need to be able to evaluate my tools and make decisions when it comes to having to move on. How is BRL preventing you from doing that? Even if they did have blogs which they wrote on once a week (or whatever), outlining what kind of progress they had made since last. That wouldn't effect your situation at all. A lot of serious talented people have already left, many because they couldn't afford to sit around and wait for something that may never come to anything. Like who? Delivery is all that matters to you and me, not promises. Exactly. |
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| A lot of serious talented people have already left Seriously talented people use the tools available to them, whilst that may not always be Blitz it certainly isn't pipe dreams. Programmers who code in pipedreams I more commonly referred too as pre-adolesents. You can't use a tool that doesn't exist and you cannot plan to use a tool if your work is based around a specification which may never exist as you envision it. This applies to BlitzMax3D aswell as Torque's early adopter kit. |
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| yeah, whatever! fact is that some people are married and trying to make a living out of this stuff. Blitz3D is frowned upon by many of the people I'm negotiating with and lacks some key features that would enable it to compete with newer tech games. One product that is currently being negotiated with a client and their investors is having a few issues, because half the project involves several large commercial publishers, and I'm not confident that blitz3D can handle the rendering side of things. simple things like better occlusion and culling, general performance due to surface count issues. lack of compressed textures and cross platform means there are a lot of compromises that a client doesn't understand, and I still need to be able to develop the title cheaply and quickly enough to project viable. Were not talking about a small contract job, but one costing 10's of thousands. And quite doable if blitzmax had enough of the blitz3D functionality we have become accustomed to. The only other game development platform avaliable is Torque, which covers most bases lacking in blitz3D. Most of this discussion not be neccessary if a slow but steady stream of information was coming from the developers at BRL. Enough to guage whether a contract can be negotiated with a client, and whether a 3D module would be avaliable at a date that can fit into our timeframe. I don't know about your situation Flameduck, I don't know anything about you, your current situation at home, what you do to make a living. I'm pretty serious about what I'm doing, and need information to make as good a judgement as I can to get my work done. I've spent the best part of 2 years hammering away at trying to get some kind of steady income out of developing games independently at less than 1/5th of the household income that I had been used to as a full time game developer. Lifes tough, and some of us need to be able to plan ahead and schedule work and where they are going months in advance. Got to get back to work, and havent got time to check back over my writing. Hope it makes sense. |
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| Whether Blitz is up to what you want or not is a different issue, and has nothing at all to do with promises from the developer. I would advise you caution over is your business model because as you just presented it to us it sounds like you are prepared to hedge bets on tens of thousands of [unspecified monetary units] on development tools that do not yet exist. I think that qualifies you as either: crazy; stupid; or omnipotent. Let's say you go for Torque because they are active on their own community forums, you've signed a contract to deliver product X by date Y. The developer promises feature Z and you plan to include it and start work on your title. Then feature Z arives but is bugged, or works differently to your interpretation of it requiring a major structural change in your own title. You've just lost 3-6 months of work. Worse still, the engine developers fix effects some other aspect that you didn't anticipate. This is what happened to DBP which took 5 years to reach a stable form, BMax still has bugs in the core and the users are wanting the 3D module more than the fixes... You have to use tools that are available now, especially if you are only planning monthys ahead as you say. I've never seen any of the indie tools come from concept and public announcement through to finished and useable state in under 2 years. |
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| When I tried T2D, I was disappointed. It wasn't very fast on my test systems and seemed buggy. A lot of serious talented people have already left A professional will always use the right tool for the right job. What tool may be right for one person, may not be right for another person doing the same job. Were not talking about a small contract job, but one costing 10's of thousands. And quite doable if blitzmax had enough of the blitz3D functionality we have become accustomed to. If you find somebody willing to pay tens of thousands for a game made in B3D, please get me their contact info, as I have some ocean front property in Arizona and a few bridges I would like to sell them.BMax is another story. BMax is EXTREMELY fast. The lack of 3D is really a moot point, since you have direct access to OpenGL. If you are not capable of writing your own engine, there are several commercial grade engines that are free or very affordable that can easily be used with BMax (that in all liklihood are better than what the official BMax 3D module will be). BMax has an extremely optimized compiler, and in my tests is very close to C++ in speed, and miles ahead of all other indie languages when it comes to speed. The commandset of BMax rivals C++. If BMax had an official GUI that was at least as functional and stable as the one in B+, I would be jumping for joy. The BMax IDE sucks, but I use IndieED and it works for my needs. |
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| Becky, thats why at the moment I'm Kind of stuck. I'm pretty crazy, but not that crazy, and trying to figure out a way to come up with a solution is proving difficult. People make too many assumptions on posts, and it doesn't help I'm not willing to give out all the details. Sufficient to say some information from BRL in the last 8 months would have been very beneficial to me and others. |
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| Evak says: simple things like better occlusion and culling, general performance due to surface count issues. lack of compressed textures and cross platform means there are a lot of compromises that a client doesn't understand, and I still need to be able to develop the title cheaply and quickly enough to project viable. Were not talking about a small contract job, but one costing 10's of thousands. And quite doable if blitzmax had enough of the blitz3D functionality we have become accustomed to. Becky Rose replys: I think that qualifies you as either: crazy; stupid; or omnipotent. I do not think Evak should be called "stupid" simply because he is serious about developing a commercial game. In fact, I think his post sounded quite reasonable and intelligent. He obviously enjoys the power and simplicity of Blitz3D, and probably is considering waiting for the release of Max3D since he believes that BRL can make a product which will fulfill his needs. Now it seems like Becky is trying to get Evak to buy DBPro or Torque or some other engine, although I haven't any idea why. There's no need to keep re-stating "Use what is available now. If Blitz3D isn't good enough, abandon BRL immediately because they're never gonna release Max3D and it's gonna be worse than some of the freely availible engines anyway so just shut up." Now that may seem a little exaggerated, but it's the general impression I feel Evak is being given. BlitzMax is a very good language and I believe it will become a extremely good development tool, partly because of it's speed, power, and expandibility, and partly because of the great syntax. There's nothing wrong with waiting for Max3D to be released, although you'd better evaluate the cost of waiting - if it is vital that you begin development of a high-tek game NOW, maybe you have no choice but to choose another engine. Sufficient to say some information from BRL in the last 8 months would have been very beneficial to me and others. I agree that logs are very beneficial to many users who are wondering what's been happening in the last 8 months. It certainly can't do any harm. At least monthly issues of the not-so-"monthly" BlitzNews newsletter would really help. |
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| I don't know about your situation Flameduck, I don't know anything about you, your current situation at home, what you do to make a living. I'm currently back in school working on my degree, living in a crappy student home, surviving on student benefits, what's left of my profits from M2 Productions, and whatever freelance jobs I can hustle up. So believe me, I understand your position perfectly.Additionally, when negotiating contracts I'm very careful not to make any commitments I can't cover personally. I realize that lucrative contracts are few and far between, and that when you're starting out, you may need to take contracts because you simply don't have any choice. But I fail to see how any of this is BlitzMAXs fault. I'm pretty serious about what I'm doing, and need information to make as good a judgement as I can to get my work done. How does hype allow you to make informed judgements? The T2D Network situation Kanati mentioned is the perfect example. If you where a T2D customer, who had jumped on a network based contract, which you where unable to fulfill because the Network code was pushed back indefinately - you're actually in a worse position than if you hadn't had any info at all, because now you'll have to pay late fees and damages - where as you otherwise could have turned down the contract because you where unsure whether to take it or not. Sufficient to say some information from BRL in the last 8 months would have been very beneficial to me and others. There has been lots of information from BRL in the last 8 months (including, but not limited to a Windows binary showing what the 3D module can do, even at this early stage). It might not have been the specific information you where looking for / hoping for, but it was information none the less. The chance of you getting exactly the information you want about Max3D is directly proportional to the chance of someone at BRL being a long-distance mind reader. Now that may seem a little exaggerated, but it's the general impression I feel Evak is being given. I think Beckys point is if you have a contract you want NOW! The fact that Max3D might be available tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year is irrelevant, and you shouldn't let oppertunity pass by, because what you want, isn't out yet. It's not the kind of thing you should gamble with, particularly if you're doing it professionally. At least monthly issues of the not-so-"monthly" BlitzNews newsletter would really help. I agree they should bring back the seemingly deceased newsletter. |
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| In fairness John I didn't call him stupid for wanting to develop commercial software, the guy was a pro long before he picked up Blitz. What I actually said was signing a multi-thousand pound contract to develop something in tools that dont exist would be crazy and/or stupid, or he's omnipotent and knows the tools will exist shortly - and developer promises should not be factored into making such a decision. When large amounts of money are involved you cannot stake your livelihood on whether some coder from another company, in another country, who you've never met, and owes you no personal feilty feels his latest masterpiece is ready and whether that masterpiece will do exactly what you think it will do. That applies to Blitz, DBP, Torque, Ogre, Quake, and steam engines too. Surely, anyone who signs deals worth thousands of quid has just an insy bit of business sense right? Whether you think Blitz is right or wrong to give out very limited information, and whether Blitz is the right product for Evak's situation, are both different questions. Neither should influence his decision to sign such a deal, because if he's contracting himself to write software he has to be able to deliver more than "well this guy from New Zealand said he'd write something and he's late." or "These guys over at Torque said their network code would do this, but it doesnt". Sure getting some more info on BMax wouldn't be a bad thing - but you also have to accept that many people here take such information very literally and that can be quite harmful to their plans if that information is changed in the final draft, or isn't interpreted properly. Anyway, we do have official confirmation that BMax3D wont be this year, how accurate a date do we expect anyway? It's already going to arrive too late for any project we start now. |
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| Anyway, my work aside. I'm not blaming BRL for anything. Just disappointed that they don't do more where communication is concerned. I'm one of the first people to evangelise how great blitz is, and would rather use their products above anyone elses. |
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| or he's omnipotent and knows the tools will exist shortly Actually that would be omniscient... If he were omnipotent he could just snap his fingers and the project would be done. :) /me runs for cover and hides |
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| Personally, I've been hoping on BMax3D for some time now, but my hope is fading. Fading because while waiting for it, I've started pushing Blitz3D further than it goes doing what I want to do with it, and knowing something much better is coming. I don't know WHEN its coming, and I dont know when I will be able to go forward. Thats why in the few hours of spare time I do get, I'm looking at various other tools. Not doing so well, but I don't want to be left stranded. |
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| I cant spell illiterate in my current signiature correctly and you haul me up on that? lol... |
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| Well, on the lighter side of things....while lots of folks are grudgingly waiting for BMax3d module.....i'm having a blast with the 2d part in Max...not that its any help... :) |
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| I'm waiting for the BMax4D module before I write another line of code, damn it. |
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| I've been working on a game part time for several months. It will require the 3d module and i have been pushing forward with many other systems. I even have a 2d representation of the game so i can implement the game play. If I were fired tomorrow and needed to get the project finished asap, i would look at one of the many great wrappers for other 3d engines. Irrlicht perhaps? |
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| What are the dependency differences in Linux between the two? I'm Rick James Bliotz! |
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| I haven't tried Torque because the main reason I got back into all this malarky is because BlitzMax appeared on the Mac, ending a several year spell of not doing any coding whatsoever. I think BlitzMax is very good. I think it can become excellent over time with the addition of 3D and GUI modules, plus some better high-level tools. I do think there is an important place for make it `easier` to create games or whatever kind of software, especially if that means having to do less programming or low-level stuff of any kind. Whether it be map editors or graphics tools or game designers or whatever, I think those can and do help a lot for a number of people and its an area that should be branched into for BlitzMax to really complete the picture. I think the language itself is very good and overall easy to use. I wouldn't want to have to program anything in C or C++ and have avoided ever learning anything about those. They are very mainstream, plain and ordinary, in my opinion, and BlitzMax is much more suitable for making games in particular. I don't think a C++ based system can compare to a system like BlitzMax where the language is crafted specifically to make it easier to make games. There's a lot of difference there and it's an important one. I do think there's some features `missing` or that would in general help a lot of people, be it 3d, gui, reading pixels, palette options, more sound or music support, whatever.. but I am sure these WILL come eventually. But in spite of those things it's already very good and I think it can really shine once there are more Max-specific applications/helpers/utilities are released. At the moment people are focussing on adding functionality, 3d engines, etc, but once you have that, you will then need a really good 3d map editor, a cool audio package, great new IDE's, etc... these higher level things which make our whole development process that much more enjoyable and less drudgery. Those are the areas that I'm focussing on right now, personally - the higher-level tools, finding ways of automating more of the monotonous aspects of creating stuff, and using the computer as a helpful assistant rather than just as a passive recipient of key presses. So I guess Torque has some things going for it if it has map editing and that kind of stuff, but C++ - a definite no no. |
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| Having ran a very sucessful software business (making bookshop software) for 6 years, one of the key things we learnt was to KEEP THE CUSTOMER INFORMED. Even if you have no news or bad news, customers like to hear about it rather than being kept in the dark until the "promised" date and then told, uh sorry there's a delay. I'm aware that BMax doesn't have any promised date but keeping customers informed of progess is vital so that they don't suffer from apathy imho. |
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| Bliotz Rulez! |
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| It's a real bummer that you can edit your posts but not the thread title for typos! |
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| Ive been calling it bliotz in my home for months, |
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| I see people doing 3D in BMax... obviously someone knows wht they are doing on both sides of a keyboard enough to figure out how to get it to work... I see GUI systems for BMax (was it Filax that did that???) and all I can say is talk to the people interested in integrating your favorite 3D engine into the system... Maybe they can help you. |
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| > What I actually said was signing a multi-thousand pound contract to develop something in tools that dont exist would be crazy and/or stupid I agree with you 100%, but I'm simply amazed how things actually work in the real world - Dilbert is not actually joking when the strip is about marketing selling products that don't really exist yet. |
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| I'm sorry, but most people expected Bmax a couple of years ago. Many of you probably havent been here long enough to remember, or have short memories. I never gave you any details, just said I had a lucrative project that I needed to get done, and knowing how things are coming along with Bmax would help a great deal. I havent signed a contract, I'm currently involved in the early stages of preparing of one. Having some idea as to which tools are likely going to be avaliable within the next year are an important part in helping decide which features I feel comfortable supporting in my product. And determine those that are a definate no no and would break the deal. I think its reasonable for people to expect some feedback from BRL about the status of a product that people have been waiting years for. Particularly when a large number bought Bmax almost a year ago and so far have had no real use for it. I have no regrets there, since I think BRL are worth supporting. But it's another thing to totaly ignore your userbase when all it would take is a bi monthly evaluation of how things are progressing. Surely were at least worth a couple of hours of their time? The newsletter provided more than enough information to keep me happy. As far as the 3D engines go, Antony and I had colaborated on the Trinity engine and got a prtetty decent alpha prototype game running within 5 weeks of Bmax's windows beta release. So I know that Bmax is already very capable.  http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/rifa2.wmv |
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| I'm sorry, but most people expected Bmax a couple of years ago. Many of you probably havent been here long enough to remember, or have short memories. We remember, thats why we are not surprised about the lack of 3D & GUI support and thats why we are not expecting the 3D mod to appear anytime soon. BRL's "communication" has been the same for several years, so thats why we aren't surprised about the lack of routine progress reports.Although we may not agree with the way things are done, we are rather used to it. |
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| didn't used to be like that tho... mark used to be VERY active in the forums back in the 2D beta and post beta days. patches and updates would literally fly outta him on a day to day basis.... Now pulling an update out of him, or information at all is like trying to whip a monkey outta my butt. |
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| *LarsG pulls out the whip* :p |
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| Kanati: You got mail. Didn't want to risk being banned by replying publicly. But, I think the facts with what I said, speak for themselves. |
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| Indiepath: MineStorm, looks awesome. One of my fave games. |
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| About T2D, I own both T2D and BMax, experience so far? Syntax wise, T2D departs from your standard languages, it's the exact same scripting syntax as the Torque Engine, you might want to take a look at those docs and see if you get the hang of it. Speed is pretty good, Docs, not so good! T2D comunity, great! You don't need to know c++ or own any c++ compiler in order to release a game with T2D. Josh (T2D creator), keeps you updated on a weekly basis of what's going on, refreshing! Both Solid cross paltform engines. T2D is a good deal if you can grasp torque's syntax. Hope this helps. |
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| well... i just think that this needs to be said... bliotz... bliotz... bliotz... booobalaa... booobalaa... boo!!! there... that should settle it once and for all... --Mike |
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| hey, I forgot about you and your ellipses. |
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| a momentary ellipsitic episode... i'm sure you'll excuse me for... what i meant to say was... ... this is what Blitz3D still has going for it 1- the .b3d file format... flexible in its multitexturing effects... this is a shining star... 2- the well thought out entity system... allows for parsing entire levels, extracting data and setting up entities from them... easy child/parent interaction... 3- a wild and crazy bunch of guys and dolls, more commonly referred to, as the community... and this is what Torque has going for it... 1- the best integrated networking framework i've ever come across in a game engine... it's a seamless part of everything in the engine, and it works... 2- it's a game engine... an existing game engine... great for modders... 3- a large, knowledgable community... my big thing is i have a hard time without solid references... and i guess that makes me more of a hacker than a modder... so i guess i'm partial to Blitz3D... ... in spite of the fact that the 'Max version, with its desirable OOP facilities, is a lil ways off... i just hope that the .b3d and the entity system survive the transition... what... what'd you say... you say you weren't talking about Blitz3D or Torque 3D!!! ohhh... well, in that case... bliotz... bliotz... bliotz... booobalaa... booobalaa... boo!!! --Mike |
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| I agree with you pretty much Red. In some ways Torque is perfect for modders, but for serious game developmet it isn't as flexible as blitz3D without a big investment of time and resources. The standard art path out of the box is really awful if your used to B3D. No multitexturing or multiple UV's in any of the native supported formats. Even the shader version doesn't support multiple UV's yet, Not a problem of the shaders but the geometry format itself. I just hope that the Bmax 3D module lives up to peoples expectations and gets some decent export tools soon after release. |
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| I've read all the posts on this topic so far and I have found a flood of helpful information from everyone and I give my thanks! I'm a person who is not necessarily new to programming (Programmed text games and stuff 10 years ago) but a person who has never taken programming seriously. Now I'm taking it very seriously, and am ready to make my first game. I've bought DBPRo (I hated it, honestly I did) and bought BMax. BMax is awesome and I'm learning its functionality very fast. Because I am lacking in physics and other forms of advanced mathematics Torque2D seemed appealing to me. Anyone who is in my position wants to have the most creative freedom possibile in game creation, and they want it EASY as possible too. Althouhg Torque2D would make soem things easier I have decided to pick BlitzMax because I do not want to have to STOP and learn C++ in the middle of programming when something doesn't work they way *I* want it to. BliotzMax (er BlitzMax) may not be done yet (thats cool with me) but atleast its easy to use and I dont need additional software knowhow to use it (C++, etc) So yeah, I'll take BMax thank you very much!! I appreciate all feedback. |
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| But it's another thing to totaly ignore your userbase when all it would take is a bi monthly evaluation of how things are progressing. They are not ignoring "you". It is a shame, but an undeniable fact of life that the actions of a few spoil everything for the rest of us. Surely were at least worth a couple of hours of their time? If only things where really that simple.The situation is that BlitzMAX is their product, not yours. They've worked on it, quite litterally for years, and I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't feel hurt or insulted when someone spews forth some of the garbage they've had to put up with over the years. Kanati is right on the money. Back in the good old days, you couldn't stop Mark from talking about all the wonderful and cool ideas he had for Blitz. It was like listening to a very smart child explain why christmas is awesome. Now you tell me, why you think that's changed? Because I am lacking in physics and other forms of advanced mathematics Torque2D seemed appealing to me. Get a good book. There's one called something like "Mathematics and physics for video games" which is supposedly very good. |
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| an undeniable fact of life that the actions of a few spoil everything for the rest of us. Coupled with the fact that in this particular scenario they've had nothing new to report in the last two months. Bug squashing. I mean, there's really not any way you can elaborate on that a second time. |
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