BlitzMAX IDE
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Beginners Area/BlitzMAX IDE
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| I've just been working on my project in Blitz3D and again the IDE is getting on my nerves and slowing me down. It would be very useful to me to have a tick box in the find window to include all include files in the search rather than having to go through them individually. The reason I don't just use a single file is because my program is now thousands of lines long! In addition, one thing that would be useful to huge projects like mine would be a warning system as in Visual C++ where it tells you on execution that you've declared variables and not used them. Pretty much what I want to know is are these things included in the BlitzMAX IDE and generally what's the IDE like? |
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| The IDE is poor but there are 3rd party IDEs available as there are for B3D. However, you can download the demo and find out for yourself. |
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| I recommend BLIde. Very good once customised. Author is fixing bugs all the time. Grab it from the toolbox. Protean isn't very good: it has no syncmods and isn't mature enough (doubtless some will argue). BLIde is free. |
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| BLIde doesn't has support Blitz3D. Only BlitzMax. A Blitz3D version is on my 'to do' list, but It won't be available untill some months... |
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| In addition, one thing that would be useful to huge projects like mine would be a warning system as in Visual C++ where it tells you on execution that you've declared variables and not used them. Or a system like in Eclipse where it can tell you of unused/redundant imports... Pretty much what I want to know is are these things included in the BlitzMAX IDE and generally what's the IDE like? Nope. Generally the BlitzMAX IDE is a small step up from previous IDEs. Almost everyone I know is using Eclipse instead, but development on the plug-in seems to have stalled.Still, it's way better than the default IDE. |
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| There's a bit of a worrying trend here... "The IDE is poor but there are 3rd party IDEs available as there are for B3D." Couple that with "yeah the docs are only basic but there is the Blitz Wiki" So far you've got the makings of something wonderful, but it's held back by the lack of proper documentation and a 'just enough" IDE. It seems the attitude now is to rely on the community to provide all the stuff that should be there in the standard package. Kinda took the edge off for me.. |
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| RiK, I agree with everything you've said and you can add the debugger in there as well... but the language is VERY good. |
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| Don't get me wrong, I think the language is great, but it is let down by the other stuff. Max is supposed to be the "Pro" Blitz yet without proper support in the way of documentation etc. people can't take it seriously. From what I've seen of Cobra, Blitz is going to have some serious competition soon too. It may not have the existing pedigree of Blitz but at least it has a sizeable printed manual from the world go. Looks like an OSX version is on the cards now too.. |
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| Again, I completely agree. The lack of doc, imo, will put off many people converting from BlitzBasic and new programmers. At the moment I can see a fanbase of people willing to discover the language while many will just want to use it. I think Cobra will be pretty good but, at the moment, BlitzMax is here and Cobra isn't. The OSX stuff is on the 'to-do' list much like the 3D module for Bmx. Every language is going to have shortfalls. It's just a shame that BlitzMax's shortfall is it's accessability. P.S. I would still like imagebuffers. |
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| if you have any clue at all the max docs are no problem, you shouldnt even need to use them after you use max for a lil. its all basic stuff. |
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| Good for you Cyanide. |
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| I end up making everything into a MOD, so i can see its parameters when I hit F1... I'm too old to remember the order of parameters, it's just enough to remember the command. Wish it found your own functions when you hit f1. |
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| Well done Cyanide, you're clearly far cleverer than me. Obviously with only 12 years as a software engineer my 'clue' isn't big enough yet.. |
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| Rambo: yepp thats missing. But with GUI Module we hopefully get the sources to the IDE to correct this kind of "missings" (or a PluginSystem like BlIDE ;-)) |
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| @Dreamora Yeah, that'd be great, but we don't have it.. Even if we did,I'm not so sure I want to spend my time fixing the IDE. But if someone does, I'll buy it. @cYanide The documentation that comes with BlitzMax is probably sufficient for a lightweight hobbyist programmer, but for true professionals like Rik and I, we require in depth documentation so we can get the most from the tools. @RiK Nice to see another old time prof programmer. Although the MAC choice is confusing, but whatever floats your boat. |
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| Max is supposed to be the "Pro" Blitz yet without proper support in the way of documentation etc. people can't take it seriously. Hrmmm. 3 months after Stroustrup published his thesis on C++, how large a body of documentation do you think there was? More or less than BlitzMAX?BlitzMAX is a new language, and for better or worse, you're an early adopter, and when the revolution comes, you'll be the one with mad skills. The documentation that comes with BlitzMax is probably sufficient for a lightweight hobbyist programmer, but for true professionals like Rik and I, we require in depth documentation so we can get the most from the tools. So you're saying professionals need more documentation than beginners? And Tony says it was a matter of accessability?I'm confused. I've previously been employed as a software developer for about 6 years combined, and I have yet to meet a programmer who actually reads documentation. Of any kind. Everyone I know personally, and everyone I've ever worked with has - at best - kept a reference manual within reach, and a class diagram / data flow chart pinned on the wall. Not that they would ever use it. Hell even with some professional, and rediculously expensive "professional" solutions you get absolutely horrible documentation. Visual Studio and MSDN being the perfect example. |
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| I guess I'm a different kind of professional programmer. For all the languages that I use professionally, I've not only gone through the documentation, but read several books about the language. Most languages I've completed coursework for and for VB6 I completed microsoft certification tests. I have an entire bookcase behind me with highlighted books to prove it, but your right I don't keep them at work with me. Places tend to think you don't know what your doing if your looking at books too often. I have no doubt your correct though, because most code I see that others write is horrible. PS: Your comment about Visual Studio is complete BS. Not only does it have autocomplete, if you hit f1 you will almost always get detailed help. Perhaps you haven't read enough about it to know how to get the help you so obviously need. |
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| Most languages I've completed coursework for and for VB6 I completed microsoft certification tests. Wow. Congratulations, you're mediocre. :o> Your comment about Visual Studio is complete BS. Really? Is it? For a commercial product I would expect it to be at least as good as Eclipse (which is free). Not only does it have autocomplete, if you hit f1 you will almost always get detailed help. Autocomplete? Please. Lets see: Refactoring tools? No. Reverse Engineering? No. CASE tools? No. Automatic stub generation of inherited, abstract methods? No. Optimise imports functionality? No. Built-im support for proper concurrent versioning systems, that don't suck (ie. not SourceSafe)? No.If autocomplete is the only feature you find lacking in the BlitzMAX IDE, I really don't see how you have anytihng to complain about. And regarding the supposedly detailed, but mostly useless MSDN, the only good thing about it is that it's indexed by Google. Oh and it's such a joy how they give their own cute little names to data structures too. I find csharpconer.com and codeproject.com much more useful. |
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| @RiK Nice to see another old time prof programmer. Although the MAC choice is confusing, but whatever floats your boat. Yup. Graduated with a Comp. Sci. degree in 1991 and worked as a Software Engineer for 12 years for an industrial automation company. Mainly good old K&R C and some assembler. Actually got the job originally on the strength of my 68k assembler madskillz learned in the Atari demo scene... :) About 3½ years back I'd just about run myself into the ground working for a boss who really had no idea about 'people' and so I quit - fairly spectacularly in fact - and decided to run my martial arts school (which I'd had for 7 years already) full time. Never looked back. Earning twice as much now and only working half the hours. The Mac? Bought that because a) I'm tooling up for some video production for my school and b) I *really* like OSX. |
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| @Rambo_Bill - Have you got lots of condescension manuals too, or does that just come naturally. ;op |
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| @Flameduck I'm not going to say anything bad about Eclipse, I have used it and thought it was very cool. I just think Visual Studio is a great development tool. I don't understand how on oneside you can defend the Blitzmax IDE and on the other say Visual Studio is bad. As far as what I'd like to see in the BlitzMax IDE would be. 1. Code Folding with support for user defined regions 2. F1 shows help for user functions 3. Autocomplete that works with user functions 4. Documentation for running your own mod server. 5. Gutter support, with option to have line numbers. 6. Debug support with Locals window and watches. @TwoEyedPete It comes with drinking and getting mad at people trying to tear down someone just because they ask for documentation. @RiK Cool man, I know all about having bad bosses. I'd probably be running my own painting business if it wasn't for the fact that my back gave out. In the end, I'm very happy where I'm at. I am confused about the whole dev scene though, seems like buzz words rule the day and over complicated solutions are applauded. Good thing I work somewhere were they don't care what tools you use, they just focus on results. |
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| I don't understand how on oneside you can defend the Blitzmax IDE and on the other say Visual Studio is bad. Because Visual Studio is 100 times more expensive, and not anywhere near 100 times as good.Let me add to that list off the top of my head: 7. Background compilation. 8. Refactoring tools (at least project wide renames and import optimization). 9. Code outline should include imported types. I'm not saying the BlitzMAX IDE is perfect, I'm saying that the IDE (and BlitzMAX in general) is good value for money. I've certainly paid more for less. I would expect a professional developer to acknowledge and accept fundamental differences between a 2000 USD development suite and an 80 USD hobbyist programming package. |
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| I agree with the arguement that Blitzmax is a value for the Dollar, thats why I bought it... I also have high hopes that it can become much more than it already is. I'm also happy with my copy of Visual Studio. One more thing to add to the list: 10. Documentation on how to add any API calls to Blitzmax. and possibly a WinAPI viewer like in VB6, that allows you to easily import Windows API calls. Thats a selfish one since I'm so used to using WinAPI calls, I'd love to make a version of Max2d that used nothing but the Win API. That way games would work on ANY windows PC, regardless of video card, opengl, directx problems. Of Course performance would suck, but for some of us thats not that big of a deal. peace, Bill. |
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| Because Visual Studio is 100 times more expensive, and not anywhere near 100 times as good. And you worked that our *how* exactly? Take a look at the following site : http://dotnet.sys-con.com/read/48835.htm you'll see the following pricing from Microsoft. Visual Studio 2005 Professional Edition $799; Visual Studio 2005 Standard Edition $299, Visual Studio 2005 Express editions will be $49 Visual Studio Express, which is aimed at hobbyist programmers is $49, or actually $30 less than BlitzMax so I'm afraid your comment really doesn't hold up. |
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| I should add, I am of course well aware that Visual Studio is developed by a huge team with virtually limitless resources and so I am not suggesting for one minute that BRL could compete on that level but that wasn't the point of my comment. The point was that perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post comments like that. |
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| Can visual studio be customised to supprot bmax? (in the same way eclipse can be?) |
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| No idea I'm afraid - using a Mac here now... |
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| BLIde doesn't has support Blitz3D. Only BlitzMax. And Protean doesn't support BlitzMAX, only Blitz3D. So for some people to say Protean isn't good for BlitzMax is really very obvious ;] (the beta of ProteanMax obviously does not count;) It seems the attitude now is to rely on the community to provide all the stuff that should be there in the standard package. BRL sells a language and the tools necessary to use that language out of the box. It is up to the community to provide all the stuff that are optional luxuries. This is actually different to Microsoft - who provide the language for free, but the IDE costs tonnes. VS Express is obviously not as useful as it's more expensive counterparts. |
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| Visual Studio Express, which is aimed at hobbyist programmers is $49, or actually $30 less than BlitzMax so I'm afraid your comment really doesn't hold up. No it isn't. Visual Studio Express is completely useless - read the liscensing terms. The point was that perhaps you should get your facts straight before you post comments like that. Oh I have my facts straight. Straight from Microsoft that is. As you can see, Visual Studio Express is pretty much just the IDE, and a stripped down version at that, and guess what, it includes even less documentation than normally.Visual Studio Express is Microsofts demo version of Visual Studio and .Net. It's surprising they charge for it at all, but I suppose that's one of the luxuries of having a de-facto state sponsored monopoly. |
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| Oh I have my facts straight. Straight from Microsoft that is. As you can see, Visual Studio Express is pretty much just the IDE, and a stripped down version at that, and guess what, it includes even less documentation than normally. Pretty much just the IDE? Err what about the "Included languages - VB, VC#, VC++, and VJ#" then?. And as for the documentation, I wouldn't call 10mb of documents insignificant. The IDE also includes full intellisense as well. The key thing as I see it is that the initial user experience is based on what they receive in return for their money, officially supported, by BRL. As it stands at the moment, the 'out of the box' experience falls a bit short (IMHO)of what it could be. Especially given that in the past (with earlier versions of Blitz) it was better. |
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| You wont win this discussion from Flameduck. He is in his 'i am right and you are wrong' mood. Add MS to the equation and he is off on a rampage. |
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| Aye, I'll just crawl back into my corner again I reckon... |
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| Pretty much just the IDE? Err what about the "Included languages - VB, VC#, VC++, and VJ#" then?. And as for the documentation, I wouldn't call 10mb of documents insignificant. The IDE also includes full intellisense as well. The key thing as I see it is that the initial user experience is based on what they receive in return for their money, officially supported, by BRL. As it stands at the moment, the 'out of the box' experience falls a bit short (IMHO)of what it could be. Especially given that in the past (with earlier versions of Blitz) it was better. Hey now, those looks like 'facts' mister. Flameduck won't be havin' none of that... |
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| BRL sells a language and the tools necessary to use that language out of the box. It is up to the community to provide all the stuff that are optional luxuries. You said that in response to Rik's comment about the IDE and documentation. Please tell me you don't think that documentation is an optional luxury for a programming language. I can just about accept that a fancy IDE is an optional luxury ( though I think BlitzMax's IDE is perilously close to making a better IDE essential ) but documentation??? |
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| Just an FYI, I have bought Visual Studio.Net 2003 Standard with support for only VB for about $50. It has the incredible Visual Studio IDE with support for ASP and ASP.NET in addition to VB. Just admit you want to flame microsoft Flameduck. The original question was how is the BlitzMax IDE, the answer is that it's very basic and don't expect too much documentation. If the question is whether to buy Blitzmax, my answer is yes because I believe all these things will be improved in time and supporting Blitmax now can only help. |
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| Hey now, those looks like 'facts' mister. Flameduck won't be havin' none of that... Well my intention wasn't to get into a fruitless discussion with Flameduck, simply to state my case. The fact is I *really* like Blitz, and I really want BRL to succeed with Blitx Max however as it stands at the moment I fear that the sparse documentation and the current IDE are significant stumbing blocks which will put of a good many potential customers before they get a chance to discover all the good stuff. When I first got the original Blitz 2d it was like going back to the good old days when bedroom coding was fun. I really got the buzz for coding again (especially after I left my day job and didnt have to code to keep a roof over my head) and spent many an all nighter coding until dawn. Now I've moved over onto a Mac as my primary platform I was rather hoping for many more such nights with Bmax but sadly, as yet, it's not quite there. |
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| RiK, I havn't been reading this thread very closly but you should know that the Mac IDE will soon be the same as the PC version. (much improved). I've also heard that there are plans are to make this open source and im sure the community will continue to build on it. I've been working in Eclipse untill then. |
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| Yeah I'm aware of the plans to update the IDE. It would of course be nice to actually hear some news from BRL about just exactly when that's likely to happen. I tried the Eclipse route (thanks for sending the extensions by the way Jay) but it hasn't really grabbed me so far, especially as I couldnt get it to build from Eclipse so I found myself swapping back to the default IDE all the time anyway. |
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| Perhaps we should all club together and buy Rob Hutchinson a Mac... |
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| And then? Even win protean has not been upated for months (nor the BM Protean beta) And with Apple leaking on .NET side ... |
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| BlitzMAX documentation is considerably better than Blitz3D's Docs 4 months out of the gate. The Docs still need improvement. The IDE needs considerable improvement. I think if BRL released an Eclipse toolbox (Plugin, BMK capability, etc) as well as incrementally improve the native IDE, the community would be forever grateful (and silenced) some people (like me) actually like the native IDE because of its simplicity. I don't generally fold code or generate stubs anyway :) Choice is better than no choice. |
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| And then? Even win protean has not been upated for months (nor the BM Protean beta) That's a fair shout actually, though it has to be said my Protean install has done everything I wanted it too so I've not really been conscious of the lack of updates recently. It's really only since moving over to the Mac and seeing how woefully lacking the default IDE is, especially given the Blitz Max was out on the Mac first, that I've really noticed it. |
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