dislike blitzmax
BlitzMax Forums/BlitzMax Beginners Area/dislike blitzmax
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| Hi, on the verge of giving up on blitzmax. Don't like the way anything works from types to arrays. Even includes don't work as expected. Coming from blitz3d, it's a huge shock, and thanks to insufficient documentation I think I'll have to throw the towel in. Please don't crow about how easy it is or how thick I am, because your elitism doesn't interest me. I'm a creative guy with many years of sucessful blitz3d coding, and blitzmax is just wearing me out. |
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| I kind of found data not working as logically as I would expect - sniff. Edit: not saying it's rubbish - just not necessarily logical compared to what I have done before. |
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| Please don't crow about how easy it is or how thick I am, because your elitism doesn't interest me. Fair enough, but then why do you feel that your whining interests us? |
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| I note you posted. |
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| 'dislike BlitzMax': on the contrary here, it's much more than I expected. It's true that from a Blitz3D developers point of view this is a culture shock - that's why it is a different product and not the end of Blitz3D. Being an owner of both products I'd be interested in a roadmap to where both products evolve. |
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| I think it is a fair point that "Skunk" has - BMax for some people is a bit of a shock to the system. I wouldn't class it as newbie friendly. It's not that it is rubbish - it could well be a very powerful language. Needs more tutorials and stuff. |
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| It needs to settle in. The problems ive been encountered are not things that are imposible but things that could be done easily in a module, and im either too lazy or dont know how to do it. :) |
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| Skunk, I'm sorry that you're having such troubles with BlitzMax. I noticed your other thread about programmers vs artists and I somewhat comiserate with you. I don't think that people saying you are whining is very compassionate and you have every right to be frustrated. Given that you spent a lot of time working with a very simlar but different product - Blitz3D - it's not really any surprise that you are having troubles transitioning. You no doubt have built up habits that are difficult to undo and part of you is probably thinking you're still programming in Blitz3D, only to find that something changes. I'm sure that can be pretty confusing. For me, having been out of coding entirely for 4 years, and having only used Blitz Basic 2 minimally in the past (did mostly 68k coding), it hasn't been quite so difficult for me to pick it up. There are some new concepts that take a little bit of learning but it's certainly doable once you get used to it. I think you probably have to `unlearn` some of what you learned and have more patience with it. You have every right to want to give up if that's what you choose, but I don't think BlitzMax is inherantly wrong or bad, you are just having a personal problem with transitioning from what you're used to in your personal history. I think that BlitzMax overall is good. So anyway, there you go. |
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| Bmax is pretty hard for someone without much programming knowledge. I've learnt enough in a week to make a simple game, and I can see how powerfull it is, but its a pain in the arse to learn anything as there is no documentation for beginners. Almost everything I've learnt came through tutorials for other BRL products, unfortunately not being able to post in other forums that have topics that re more relevant to beginners makes things harder than they need to be. It's only been through a huge effort and a little help from Antony and Waves recent tutorials that I have gotten anywhere at all as far as learning more Bmax specific areas of coding. Some things are definately harder, and others missing entirely, so you can't allways follow basic tutorials easily, even simple tutorials about input, and printing input on screen is a chore as commands like Getkey and equivalent simply don't exist. Bit odd that I learnt most of my Bmax skills from Blitzcoder, as currently thats the only place that allows discussion across languages, and easy access to information suitable for beginners. |
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| Skunk/Puki, I'm interested. I know what you mean. I'm going to persevere though as a) it's win beta b) I've paid c) I've yet to get my head around the basic changes and new methodology. I think it will take a while though. Documentation needs to get better and more tutorials. My guess is we'll be relying on user tutorials (some good ones already). |
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| I wouldn't class it as newbie friendly. BlitzMAX is extremely newbie friendly. Only people locked in their set, traditional and above all procedural mindset are going to have to struggle with it.You both said it yourself. "Aspect X" didn't work as I expected it too. Well a newbie won't have these preconceptions about what a programming language will and won't do, thus he won't be puzzled by it, but just except how it works. I think you probably have to `unlearn` some of what you learned and have more patience with it. Amen. Bmax is pretty hard for someone without much programming knowledge. No. BlitzMAX is dead easy for someone without much (or any) programing knowledge.It's when people who are established programmers in their own right get involved it tends to get confusing. I agree more tutorials are probably needed. |
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| I note you posted. Correct. - I clicked your post - Saw you wasting my time with whining - Responded At any rate, it'll take some time to get used to BlitzMax if you're not used to OO programming. I personally am very familiar with it, so Max is easy for me to pick up. I understand that this isn't the case for everyone. |
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| BlitzMAX is extremely newbie friendly. Only people locked in their set, traditional and above all procedural mindset are going to have to struggle with it. No. BlitzMAX is dead easy for someone without much (or any) programing knowledge. you are wrong, and don't piss people like me off by speaking for us. Blitzmax *IS* pretty hard for someone without much programming knowledge - including people who used blitzbasic/3d. Your tone is arrogant, you are wrong and you throroughly piss me off. |
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| Flameduck? Arrogant? Now you're just making stuff up... |
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| /me waves goodbye to halo |
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| Blitzmax needs to improved its documents for us to get use to it without this how are we supposed to learn the language. Hurry Mark |
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| TBH the only thing buggin ma tits is the pants doc's. Dont get me wrong im in the same boat, hell just trying to get an array to work is doing my head in, but thats just because I already have the old B3d method of doing it in my head. Once I learn this new syntax and work out all the new commands and ways of doing things(bad docs) I think that max will be an even more powerfull language than any of us have actually realised so far. Bring on better support for C structures though so we can start importing c made GFX engines like ogre. |
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| you are wrong, and don't piss people like me off by speaking for us. What you seem to be forgetting is that I was not born with an intimate understanding of how all this OO thing works (and more importantly still have a long way to go, the target is constantly changing). Like everyone else, it's something I've had to learn. When your previous experience is largely in Assembly, C and BlitzBasic 2 - the concept of OO is intimidating and confusing. I know, I've been there too. So don't presume to know I don't understand the position you're in. I do. I've been there myself. Blitzmax *IS* pretty hard for someone without much programming knowledge - including people who used blitzbasic/3d. What you don't seem to be getting is that you have plenty programming knowledge. Do I really have to point out all the cool things you've done already? Like it or not, using Blitz3D/Plus/whatever does not somehow exclude you from becoming an experienced or acomplished programmer. Your tone is arrogant, you are wrong and you throroughly piss me off. I'm sorry you think me arrogant for calling you a talented programmer. I'm also sorry you're so convinced I'm wrong. |
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| I think people that are experienced programmers take it for granted just how confusing the simplest things they take for granted can be Last time I programmed was about 1987, it’s been a long time and even then it was old school basic. I had forgotten even the most basic things. declaring variables, functions and types were completely alien to me initialy, and without simple knowledge like this I had to rely on Krylars beginner articles for Blitz2D to understand the basics of Bmax. It took me a while to figure out how Blitzmax knew what X and Y were, even though I could see it was working I found the whole thing pretty confusing, and I obviously still didn't quite get variables and how they worked with commands, despite the fact that I had been using them in working code. Anyway, I finally got it a few days ago, and am finding it a lot easier now that I realize how simply a computer thinks. And how linear the computers processes generally are. I'm going to persevere, Partly because I paid the $80 but also because when you understand the concepts behind a game, and a lot of the technical aspects behind how an engine works it's frustrating having to wait on other people to do things for you, and then not having something done as well as you would like for whatever reason. My hope is that in the future I'll be able to help with the basic setting up of a game design and do some of the things that are important to an artist like myself but often prove tedious to a engine coder that focuses more on the technical side of things. All I can say is that its damned hard to start with, but it does get easier, and I think with a mature IDE with more user friendly functions and proper debugger will help a lot and make things easier still. |
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| Types, Arrays and even Including files are different. The issue isn't just OO! Blitzmax is, without a doubt, much harder and has vastly poorer documentation. In short, it's a nightmare for me to learn. I am certainly not putting down BRL or blitzmax - a fine product it undoubtedly is - just nowhere close to what we expected for good or ill. |
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| @Flameduck I don't think your being unreasonable, in some ways I think I'm fortunate to be starting from scratch with the programming thing, as I have no previous baggage to relearn, or old habits to break. I have alot of experience with game dev, but as more of a technical artist. and had to rely on others to realise my ideas in code. Jeremy or Antony did all the coding in the BLitz projects I have worked on, Bmax is the first language I have owned since the Amiga :) The most frustrating thing for me with Bmax has been translating basic tutorials from other languages into Bmax, in some ways it has probably accelerated my understanding, but its also meant that I have had to memorise a lot of concepts and then throw them away time and time again till I discovered what works. Something pretty tough without practice and being a visual person that isn't very good with words and numbers :) |
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| just nowhere close to what we expected for good or ill Please change the word "we" to "I" in the above. You do *not* speak for me, nor I suspect anyone else on this forum. (Not saying those three things aren't different, but hey, what did you expect? *exactly* the same language, with no improvements?) |
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| Hay skunk look at this _ http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=42307 |
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| Please change the word "we" to "I" in the above. You do *not* speak for me, nor I suspect anyone else on this forum. Then please say that to WarrenM as well who also used the royal 'we'.It is clear you have said nothing in regards to contributing to this topic and have everything against me. I am not halo, nor do I have anything against you. BACK OFF. |
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| Hey I got mistaken for Antony Wells when I first started posting on the blitz forums, when there was a public forum lol. Not saying that skunk isn't who you think he is <shrug> |
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| It is clear you have said nothing in regards to contributing to this topic and have everything against me. I would suspect that NOBODY can have anything to contribute with on this "topic".. you don't like the programming language, and you speak for yourself.. whining about it on the blitzmax forums will only make you get people against you.. not because your opinions are wrong, but because of the way you present them. |
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| Well, this is going nowhere fast... If you have any specifc questions on types, arrays or include, please ask them, but a vague 'I don't like 'em' isn't going to achieve anything. |
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