B3D vs Torque: Development time?
Blitz3D Forums/Blitz3D Programming/B3D vs Torque: Development time?
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| For those with experience of Torque - do you think B3D provides a faster dev time? I was reading about Think Tanks and saw it was developed in about 6 months (with Torque)... it seems so basic for half a year's work. I'd prefer to work in B3D anyway, since I don't know any C++ :) |
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| Torque is known for being confusing and bloated to some degree. If you want easy coding, why the hell even consider Torque at all? |
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| Depends on what you're making. |
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| Can you elaborate on that Josh? Is Torque more suited to i.e. FPS games or something? For me, I don't need the latest graphic effects, although one thing I DO need is custom mesh building and mesh deformation. I want easy coding, but by no means am I designing a simple game. |
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| For a simple shooter game, use Blitz. If you need an engine, use Torque. |
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| But Think Tanks is a simple shooter? I've never actually fully understood the difference between a language and an engine. I know Blitz is a language that has a DX7 engine, but beyond that I don't understand that fundamental difference between Torque and B3D. Is an engine like a load of C++ libraries, in a similar way to me using BlitzUI in my Blitz programs? (BlitzUI is a GUI written in Blitz, that is #included into the code, rather than a DLL) Is the advantage of using an engine (over using Blitz) simply a question of performance? |
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| Torque is a shooter engine. Seems ideally suited for an FPS seeing as how it powers Tribes 2 and all... |
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| Still no wiser about what is an engine... |
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| Engines tend to load all data from files so you can make new things without changing the code. Blitz3D programming tends to be more like you program everything in the EXE. I know it doesn't have to be, but if you end up programming an "engine" in Blitz, you will find that the lack of low-level access prevents you from doing many things. In other words, Blitz3D does not set up a production pipeline or occlusion system, but gives you no access to the low-level commands you need to do it yourself, so your code ends up being bigger than if you had used OpenGL. |
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| Game Engine + Media & Logic Data = Game |
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| Okay thanks, starting to make more sense. For others confused, I found this on the GameStudio site: Q. What are the differences between a 3D Engine, a 3D Language and a 3D Authoring System? A. A 3D Engine is a library of 3D graphics functions. Many 3D engines are available on the Internet, some are free, some are between $50 and $250,000 for commercial use. 3D engines require programming with an external delevopment system, normally Microsoft Visual C++. Programming a game around a 3D engine offers a maximum of flexibility, but requires also a maximum of experience, work and time to be invested before something's moving in your game. An easier approach is offered by some 3D Languages. You are programming a DirectX interface with a scripting language that is especially designed for 3D games. Such languages don't offer the speed and flexibility of a 3D engine, but avoid a lot of problems related to 'real' programming. Many 3D languages use Basic, which is relatively easy to learn, but not very well suited for large or complex games due to it's ancient language structure. Better suited for ambitious projects are modern C- or Javascript-based languages. The easiest way to create a game is using an Authoring System, which has it's own 3D engine and a visual editor for very fast 'clicking together' a game prototype. Of course, only simple games can be created without any programming. Thus authoring systems normally also provide a scripting language for programming or customizing the game. With an authoring system, a game can be created in a fraction of the time that would be needed for programming around a separate 3D engine. Due to this advantage, many major game companies begin to use authoring systems like GameStudio/A6 for their game development. Some simple authoring systems are specialized on FPS (first or third person shooters) and offer no or limited scripting. Although even the FPS created with them are not exactly the state of the art, they could be a good alternative if you don't want to script and are not interested in publishing a game commercially. Most authoring systems however can be used for creating every type of game or 3D application. I'm still a bit in the dark though - for instance I can't understand why engines offer more flexibility than a language: I would have thought languages offer far more subtlety... guess I'm just not getting it. By the way, is B3D compiled to machine code, or interpreted (or compiled to an intermediate form)? |
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| By the way, is B3D compiled to machine code, or interpreted (or compiled to an intermediate form)? Man I thought that someone like you, that has made total terrain, magic world, attack of baddies, would know better then to ask question like this ;) You've been around here long enough to know answer to that ;) coomee on, have you had coma and amnisia? ;) |
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| Differences I find between Torque and Blitz / Difference I find between Engine and Programming Language Using the example of Think Tanks the difference between doing that in Torque and/or doing it in Blitz would be: In Blitz you would have to write your own code for handling physics, networking, optimising the "drawing world" process, input, menus. If you write this yourself then you will be able to design it specifically for the game you are writing. You will only need to code the features you want it to have and you have almost total control over how they are implemented. In Torque you already have code for handling physics, networking etc. Depending upon the style of game you are creating there may require many changes to code/scripts or only a few in Torque. For example changing Torque to a turn based game would likely require a lot of effort in changing c++ code whereas in Blitz if you knew that you were going to make a turn based game you would likely develop your code to suit that. As an analogy perhaps it could be seen that writing a game in Blitz requires everything to be built from the ground up whereas in Torque you start with a complete set of code and modify bits and pieces of it to suit with the amount of modification required depending on the complexity of these changes. It is much harder to "muck around" with Torque I find as if I want to test something out in Blitz I can do a mock version of something quickly by writing the code for the specific idea in mind. Torque is better if you have a firm idea of what you are making and are committed to the idea you are trying to put into a game. That is one of the reasons I have not made anything with Torque - I cannot settle on an idea and so the thought of having to make all kinds of engine changes / script modifications to achieve an idea is too daunting whereas in Blitz starting a small mock project to test things can be done quickly. |
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| Torque is an entire "game engine", from graphics and physics, to sound and game logic. Torque is "programmed" by using a scripting language with strong similariites to C/C++. 99.9% of all game coding is through scripting. Scripts are simple text files that are compiled at run time. If you need additional functionality not provided by the engine, you can, if you're a licensed user, change the source code. (You get all the source when you buy and register). It can be compiled and run on OS X, PC and Linux platforms. Torque has primarily been used as an FPS engine, but recently an add-on package for doing RPGs has been announced. There is also support for shaders currently in beta. I own a TGE license and am currently programming a "space sim" FPS (ala Wing Commander). The engine is awesome but not without a few quirks. (There are no perfect game engines) I agree with Halo: For a simple shooter game, use Blitz. If you need an engine, use Torque Be prepared to spend some time learning Torque if you go that way. The learning curve is a bit vertical... |
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| Okay, it's all starting to become clear now... think I'm more into the idea of coding with Blitz for now. Man I thought that someone like you, that has made total terrain, magic world, attack of baddies, would know better then to ask question like this ;) You've been around here long enough to know answer to that ;) coomee on, have you had coma and amnisia? ;) I'll take that as a compliment! I only asked because one of the pages on the TGE site said that some languages claim to be compiled but are not compiled to *machine code* but to an intermediate form so are not truly compiled, and it made me wonder... |
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| Don't just settle on Torque, though. There are other great engines out that are low in cost and deliver amazing graphics. Look at the demo for the AMP II engine. More Doom 3-ish than anything else. http://www.slamsoftware.com/ |
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| AMP is the engine that powered Gore. A glowing recommendation if I've ever heard one... |
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| A Programming Language is used to write Programs. A Gam Engine is a Program. It's a special Program that allows to be the Motor for multiple Game Projects. You can make an engine with a Langunage, but yo can't make a Langunage with an Engine. Most Engines are written in C++. Blitz3D is written in Visual C++ too. Nevertheless Blitz is a Language. Blitz also offers easy access to DirectX Functions. Maybe Blitz is limited in some aspects, compared to C++, but it surely is much easier to handle, especially for beginners or lazy people like me. I remember: Installing Borland C++ 3.0 and compiling Print "hello world" to an exe can be an event that takes an entire evening. BTW Lieutnant - AMP2 is not free. You need to purchase a license, the cheapest is 2000$ is I remember right, and it aso requires at least a GeForce3. yes, you can download and try AMP2, but it's like "watch, don't touch" |
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| If i dint know better i think Torque was written in blitz3d. at least at 1996. I have looked close to a game called "Minions of Mirth" and its is verry not finished game. i cold even se the dynamic terrain bugg like in blitz 3d have. |
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| Minions of Mirth possibly has its roots in Blitz3D and then migrated. I know that some of the 3D media was sourced from Blitz3D media suppliers. |
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| Jeez - what is it: "Necro Week"? |
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| If i dint know better i think Torque was written in blitz3d. You mean, around when this thread was started? at least at 1996. |
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