Income stats

Blitz3D Forums/Blitz3D Beginners Area/Income stats

SkyCube(Posted 2005) [#1]
Hello everyone,

I have a rather odd question. I do not know if this is the appropiate place for this kind of question or if I should be asking it at all, but here goes: those of you who have made games in Blitz3D and make money from them, is it a profittable market? About how much money do you make anually (if it can be known)? How long would it take say, a two person team, to make a good game? The reason I ask is because I have been using Blitz for a few months now and would like to make a serious game (so far the only playable thing I've done is a ship followed around by some enemies, and even that is not quite finished).

I realize that making a good game requires time (lots of it!), effort and commitment, but well, I'd just like to know, how do the other Blitzers do it? How long does it take them to create all those cool games? How many people does it take? And how lucrative is it?


Rob Farley(Posted 2005) [#2]
I would suggest not giving up your day job.

A 'good' game... Tetris is a good game, you can write it in about 30 minutes.

A game will only make money as it's quality.

GFK is the person to speak to on this
http://www.blitzbasic.com/newsletter/newsletter.php?issue=10

Personally, I write games for fun, as soon as you start doing it as your primary income you're going to hate doing it.

From my experience the programming stops being fun when you're under a contract... it becomes a chore and you start to cut corners just to get it finished... eventually you finish the game with a sigh of relief and just want to forget all about it.

How long does it take? Depends on how much time you put in and how big the game is. However, if you have a job/ kids/ girlfriend/ boyfriend/husband/ wife you time becomes a premium. On top of that you have to actually have a life too otherwise you'll become a pale IT spod with no social skills.

It took me about a year to complete Sphere Racer, I did everything on this, the modelling, textures, sound, music, coding. It was also my first 'proper' blitz project, I made a few grand from it.

Hourly rate wise the payback is rubbish, you're better off with a 'proper' job and just doing coding when you feel like it. Then, if you complete a game and you sell it, you can buy a nice holiday or a big TV.


jfk EO-11110(Posted 2005) [#3]
If you have a very good idea for a game, you may make a lot of money, at least for a couple of weeks, until the big companies rip your idea and flood the market with their version of your game.

If you try to make a game like those seen on the market, you shouldn't have any illusions. The big companies invest many millions in a single game these days. Their Quality is so good that you surely won't be able to gain the attraction of the public. And of course, you won't even get trough to the customers unless you pay some millions for PR from beginning on.

What you can do is: you can create a little game around an extraordinary game idea or game theme. You may find a sponsor for such a project. Or maybe you want to produce an Advertisement Game, a Product Promo Game for a Company.

But you better don't expect to make a living from games creation. It's hard, very hard. It's hard to make a good game, but it's even harder to sell it!

You need specialists for everything, not only for 2d, 3d, sound, animation, but also for SELLING.

Nevertheless it's great fun to work with Blitz3D.


Rook Zimbabwe(Posted 2005) [#4]
Personally I have made millions using Blitz and... Oh it is time for my medication since the invisible people are looking at me...

Seriously that approach to programming is lame. That is the same reason a great many fools study law or medicine... not because of love of the subject or want to help the people of the world but because of paycheck... lame.

You will always be rewarded for your efforts, just NOT always in the ways you want (or can sometimes recognize for that matter!)

I would just focus on learning to program a computer in Blitz... then developing a game idea using what you know and this community and all the resources available to you.

I would not worry if your game will make you ANY money. Money clouds the mind. Concentrate on the idea. The flow of the program and the fun and creative nonsense you zap in to the game for no reason other than the sheer joy of FUN!

Even if you fail, you got paid... you learned more about programming, you made some new fiends on this board... maybe you made some code you can re use later in a better idea.

I have to go I am getting too zen hippy tree hugger here...

RZ


SkyCube(Posted 2005) [#5]
Heh Heh Heh, I guess you're all right. Games programming should me more for fun than anything else. But if I can make some money while I'm at it... but the money really isn't what's important, like Rook said. And like Rob said, I don't intend to quit my regular day job to make games (though I was considering quitting my graduate studies he heh heh).

Still, it's nice to have a picture of what to expect when making games. I think the game I'm planning should take about one to two years in development, but we'll see. Thanks for the info everyone. Always glad with Blitz3D's community responses.


Paulo(Posted 2005) [#6]
Skycube, sounds to me like one way to make some money using blitz is to first assemble a large team. I certainly think that Blitz is capable of producing games that are the same or better quality than say a PS2... But it is going to struggle to keep up with something like Halflife2 or Doom3, which are setting the standard for todays games quality. (Blitzers please dont lynch me! :) ). I know this is only down to the quality of the coder at the wheel, but the reality is that if you can make something look and play as well as one of these games, then chances are you are already working for someone doing the same thing... and of course assembling a team of unpaid workers is no easy task... Keeping unpaid people motivated is a nightmare, the enthusiasm has to be natural and they have to want to succeed at the project. What normally causes failure (in my experience) on these projects is a lack of vision and above all, commitment.

That said, it's my belief that there is a secondary gaming industry out there! It caters for the (what I would call) NON-GAMERS - Places like YAHOO games these days offer tons of small games at a decent price... The games are relatively simple, good looking and highly playable, aimed at people like my Mum. Just check out Yahoo Games to see the well 'challengable' competition. This I would say is the best market to tackle on your own.

The only thing you need is a good idea and maybe a strong dose of determination. But I am sure that most feel the same as me on this - it is ultimately the IDEA in your game that is the major challenge.

I hate one aspect of the industry today - 'genre' - this is a maddening phrase because it is segrigation, which people adhere to everyday and loosely use as a basis for their gaming choice. e.g. 'Oh no, not another 1st person shootem up, I dont want to play that" It's really no different from music or movies in this respect. Most people are narrowminded in the sense that they will not play certain games because of what they are... This is sad and it never used to be like this. Once upon a time, people would buy a game because of the 'idea' behind it - not based upon the GUI it uses. Think of something that no one has thought of - make a basic version showing the concept in Blitz, write up all the rest in a word document, burn a CD, print a document - MAIL IT TO YOURSELF AND NEVER OPEN IT (a cheap way to prove copyright) and send another off to big companies with a nice letter and telling them all about yourself and how you would like to offer them your project. :)

That's my two pence worth! :) Hope you find it useful.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#7]
Blitz is capable of producing games that are the same or better quality than say a PS2... But it is going to struggle to keep up with something like Halflife2 or Doom3
You're implying that Halflife 2 and Doom 3 are better than any PS2 game. This statement is innacurate to say the least.... almost laughable.

The only thing you need is a good idea and maybe a strong dose of determination.
Firstly, that's two things. Second, you don't think marketing would play a tiny part in a game's success? The best game in the world won't sell if nobody knows about it.

MAIL IT TO YOURSELF AND NEVER OPEN IT (a cheap way to prove copyright)
...only it actually proves nothing.

and send another off to big companies with a nice letter and telling them all about yourself and how you would like to offer them your project.
You'd first get them to sign a non-disclosure agreement - a legal document drawn up by a solicitor.

Oh, and you can't copyright an idea.

That's my two pence worth! :) Hope you find it useful.
Not really, because the majority of what you said is flawed.


Rook Zimbabwe(Posted 2005) [#8]
Paulo (Posted 2005-03-26 08:39:17)

Skycube, sounds to me like one way to make some money using blitz is to first assemble a large team. I certainly think that Blitz is capable of producing games that are the same or better quality than say a PS2...

I FULLY agree with paolo. Now I have seen a few platformer examples that are as good as any platformer I have seen ANYWHERE... Puzzle games as well.

Has anyone researched the games out there that have been created with Blitz??? Is there a list???


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2005) [#9]
Someone got something stuck somewhere it shouldnt have been stuck.....


hmmm.


MAIL IT TO YOURSELF AND NEVER OPEN IT (a cheap way to prove copyright)



GFK, This is actually something they TEACH you when you do Music Technology. I'm not saying where I did it wasnt aload of crap, but that technique does actually work. Full stop.


jfk EO-11110(Posted 2005) [#10]
Yes, I know that from my popstar days too. A sealed letter, sent to yourself and never opened. You may open it at the court to proof that you have sent it PRIOR the date the evil company claimed copyrights for your work.

And you CAN copyright a idea, EG: tetris!

I't just another question if you will win against a big company, since their lawyers know a lot of not-so-fair tricks.


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2005) [#11]
LOL @ Popstar Days...

Well, jfk, Thats precisely it. its solid proof :)


Paulo(Posted 2005) [#12]
Skycube, sadly I dont have the time to make thousands of posts on the BB forums and cover every detail you should be aware of when attempting to make a game... apart from the fact, I dont know every detail, and dont claim to. :)

Now apparently I implied that Doom3 and HL2 are better than any PS2 game.. well that isn't what I said, but since Im here writing about it, I will elaborate - I picked those two games for very good reasons - it's blatantly obvious that you need a very high end PC to run them and play and see them in the way the designers planned, if you can see the PS2 running them in the same way as your PC, then you must know something about PS2's that I don't. Both these games use technology that the PS2 simply isn't capable of delivering. Graphically they shine as examples of some of the most realistic products produced to date. The playability, interaction/userbility with these games is quite astonishing in comparison to what your average PS2 game can offer... Massive multiplayer games over the internet with stunning visual effects, team play, deathmatch, capture the flag, multiple screen resoloutions, colour depths, detail levels, alter control keys, run modificaitons, write modifications, include new weapons, new characters, new worlds, include new dialogue, include new sound fx, write scripts to control AI - scripts to control how the hardware in your PC draws to a texture! etc, etc - oh don't forget the availablility of the game editors which is a whole other program to support these games. So yes I think a PS2 will hvae trouble 'keeping up with this' - Only an idiot would assume that Doom3 and HL2 are better than any game on the PS2.

People like different things - I happen to think that my PC offers me the very best in gaming technology. If i wanted an average 3 - 5 hours of game time and no real community support or ability to modify a game, I'd just play console games all the time. As it happens though, I sometimes play games on all my consoles, my CUBE, my XBOX, and yes sometimes I load up something on the PS2, but to date, I have yet to see a game on any of these formats that is able to keep up with the two games i mentioned. Though I can say that I enjoyed ZELDA Windwaker more than I did Doom3, whether its a BETTER game or not, thats a tough call to make.

However, I am not dumb enough to think that just because a game pushes the latest technology to its limits doesn't necesarrily make it a 'better' game. I have tons of respect for console coders because they have their hands tied - they have incredibly tight deadlines and are limited in what they can do, this kind of desigining demands that as designers they have to think "inside the box" not outside. Who'd have thought that Quake2 would have ever run on a PS1? When it requires over 20megs of RAM just to start on a PC, and yet someone took that game and got it to run on a 2meg playstation. Obviously the game is not the same experience, but you have to acknowledge what wonders can be done, given the time and dedication...

GFK mentions marketing - yes of course your game will need that, but you don't want to be worrying about that. If you have a good idea and can demonstrate it with the aid of a CD and document (you'd be mad to send no documentation) and someone wants to buy it, are you really going to care about marketing when you are sat at home looking at your online bank account with a five figure sum in there, for the last six months work. Leave that to the capitlists and do what you love to do - write games :D Do NOT let people on forums ruin your dreams. It is possible!! If you want it badly enough, you can have it. This industry is just like many others - it's a numbers game - solicit enough professionals in the industry, target them and build relationships and you will sell yourself and hopefully your project. Yes, it's all time and effort, but well worth it if it gets you what you want, right?!

When all is said and done - the point I originally tried to make was, yes you can make money, but don't try and make Doom4 or Halflife3, cus it aint gonna happen - be realistic, try and be original, and you have as much chance as the next guy to write a sellable product using blitz. Go for it!!

Again, I hope you find it useful.

GFK, 5 or 6 out of 23 or so sentences is not a majority - unless of course you are a Tory politician. Those kind of majorities are what enforced things like the criminal justice act in the UK, and sadly has gotten many of our soldiers killed in Iraq... Peace.

Rook, Cygnus, JFK, thanks for the input! :)


Oddball(Posted 2005) [#13]
Skycube, first of all I think you've chosen the wrong place to ask about these things. A forum full of business and marketing people would have been a better place to ask. Secondly, I'd ignore most of what has been said in this thread as it's complete rubbish. GFK's advise is sound, listen to it.

Paulo, can I come live in your fantasy world with you? It sounds much nicer than the real world where I live :)


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2005) [#14]
Are we all living in a fantasy world? Or do we just have our own views. Hey, if these things we are saying are what we follow, and we succeed by, then how is it wrong eh?


Jeesus...


[edit]

Its worked for me, and quite a few people here.

If it hasn't worked for you, just say it hasnt, Of course it wont work for everyone and not everyone will be lucky, but thats just life.


simonh(Posted 2005) [#15]
This isn't the best place to discuss this type of thing. Try www.indiegamer.com instead, where you will find many people who make games for a living.


GfK(Posted 2005) [#16]
GFK, 5 or 6 out of 23 or so sentences is not a majority - unless of course you are a Tory politician. Those kind of majorities are what enforced things like the criminal justice act in the UK, and sadly has gotten many of our soldiers killed in Iraq... Peace.
What the hell does Iraq have to do with this? Why can't some people help themselves from steering every conversation towards war and politics? What's wrong with you??

Paulo, can I come live in your fantasy world with you?
If he thinks you're going to make a game, do sod-all marketing, then magically "get a online bank account with a five figure sum" for your [lack of] efforts, then he is, indeed, in a dream world. (Unless his local currency is Yen, of course - in which case the poorest of the poor have five-figure bank balances).

Do NOT let people on forums ruin your dreams
...but DO let them point out the difference between dreams and reality.

Like SimonH said - go to indiegamer.com and ask people there how hard it is. Most of the people on this forum have never made and sold a game in their lives, so really haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.


SkyCube(Posted 2005) [#17]
First, I want to thank everyone who posted in reply to my question. It's nice to be able to see the views of others in this particular topic. I can have my personal opinion on this matter, but to be truly objective, I need to know what other people think (which was the intention of my initial post). Some of you think it can be done if you want it badly enough and some think it can't be done unless I spend thousands in PR and marketing.

I have to say, I have to agree with both. If I don't want it badly enough it ain't gonna happen. But that also means I must be willing to spend all that money.

I currently have no intention of making games for a living, though I would love to make some money from it (that's why I am investigating what can be expected) and I don't have the money to hire artists or specialists in PR. Nor do I have friends who would be willing enough to help me make a game and go unpaid. The point: I realize I don't have the resources to make the next Doom of Half Life. So I guess if I'm to make money from games, I can't really expect much. I'm better off taking whatever money I earn and buying a big screen TV like Rob suggested :) Still I thank all those who took the time to let me know their opinions and experiences.


As for this not being the place to discuss this type of thing, I realize it isn't. But at the time of my initial post, I did not know where to ask (Google can't really tell me this type of thing).

All in all, I think I'll make games more for fun than profit, and if I'm lucky enough to sell it, even better!


dena(Posted 2005) [#18]
This is very interesting!
I have done blitz3d work for my own creative work, but now have been asked to do some freelance work in Blitz3D, and I don't know what to charge. What is a good or average hourly wage for Blitz coding?


Damien Sturdy(Posted 2005) [#19]
The case is if you put effort in, you get a much higher chance of success.

Not advertising etc. will of course end up with pretty much bugger all, Unless you're extremely lucky........

But, if you go flat out, Youre chances are higher and you will do much better. :)


Gabriel(Posted 2005) [#20]
GFK, This is actually something they TEACH you when you do Music Technology. I'm not saying where I did it wasnt aload of crap, but that technique does actually work. Full stop.



The US Copyright office says it's a load of rubbish and has never worked. You'd think they'd know.