legal stuff #2
Blitz3D Forums/Blitz3D Beginners Area/legal stuff #2
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| Hello There are a lot of free resources on the web . May I assume that they can be used in a commercial game, unless it is clearly forbidden ? As a matter of common sense, if a resource can be freely downloaded from the web, the owner should not be entitled to claim any rights. I am thinking , in particular to "The Sims resources". It is a gold mine of 3d characters. You can download over 56.000 models, paying a ridicolus fee. It is written nowhere ( at least I did not find it ) that they can not be used in a commercial game,so... Any lawyer among blitz members ? thanks in advance |
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| Copyright doesn't have to be stated. It's implicit. |
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| You will end up with your head on a stick AND still owe money. |
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| Alberto - any original creation anyone makes is automatically placed under copyright. No copyright notice is required. Legally, THIS POST is copyright protected to me. Quoting it of course falls under fair-use legislation, but it's illegal for someone else to take it and claim it as their own post. Likewise, the 3D models on the Sims Resource, and in fact ANY site, are copyright, and cannot be used without permission. More importantly - you have some very dangerous thoughts here: As a matter of common sense, if a resource can be freely downloaded from the web, the owner should not be entitled to claim any rights. Wrong! If I spend 15 hours making up a set of textures and say "you can only use these in freeware titles, and not sell or redistribute them in any other form", those are MY rights. They are my creations, I can decide where and how they used. If you decide that because I made them freely available that you can use them for whatever you want, you're breaking the law. If you use them in a commerical product, you've violated my rights - I didn't spend time producing them so you can make money off them. Even I'm not making money off them! But it goes further than this, if I paste up a website with a set of textures and DON'T say how they can or can't be used - do you think you're allowed to use them? NO! They're my creations, and are under copyright. Unless I specifically state that they MAY be used, then downloading them and using them breaches copyright law - and you're just another sad thief. Likewise, be careful when downloading anything from a site which says you can use it for free because they downloaded it from the web. As every original creation is under copyright, very few of the original artists/authors actually give permission for ANYONE to use their work for ANYTHING. People copy JPGs and MIDIs all over the place and think its OK - It's not. Don't be part of the problem, kid. +BlackD |
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| Copyright Law differs from country to country and arguing about it just makes you all wrong! There are quite a few countries that have never agreed witht he entire copyright idea and consequently if you make something and put it on the net (and someone there wants it) it's theirs. They can do whatever they want with it. You have no legal recourse against them. Nothing is implicit under international law. The word "implicit" assumes everyone agrees... The only thing implicit about the word "implicit" is that no one country can dictate what the word "implicit" means. Take fonts. Te USA made all fonts FREE. No one can charge for fonts because charging for fonts means you can inhibit the rights in the US' 1st amendment (Freedom of speech and expression) when you charge someone to print something using your font. (the Goudy relatives got greedy and brought the case to the Supreme court) Does this mean that fonts are free all over the world? No. But there are many sites where you can now download them. Sometimes people try to coerce money from you for using them or stick in legal messages say "free for non - commercial use." But of the 6 cases tried in Texas thus far... The "commercial user" won every round. Easy. The internet is warping a lot of legal ideas in a great many countries. Things are changing. Things will continue to change. I know this because I spent $2500.00+ pursuing a group of thieves from Russia that published a CD of "Background Images and Textures" most of which were my own and downloaded form my first interent site Green Moose Game Supply aways back in 1991. Russia couldn't touch them. No copyright law. So as to the SIMS models... If you paid a fee to download them it would depend on the laws of your couuntry. In the USA you could still get hit with "intellectual theft" but the SIMS people didn't really make the models. They bought them. You go buy yours from the same source and you can run amuck! Just click here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%223d+models%22 as a start... Good luck. |
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| Actually, there's quite a bit that's wrong. :) There are quite a few countries that have never agreed witht he entire copyright idea and consequently if you make something and put it on the net (and someone there wants it) it's theirs. What you are referring to is the Berne convention. It is NOT the only copyright convention, and many countries which are not signatoree to the Berne convention were already signed up with the Universal Copyright Agreement. All of the former USSR nations for instance, despite not signing the Berne convention, uphold the convention in their laws. Simply because a country is not signed up with the Berne convention, doesn't mean that there is no copyright in those countries. Not only because they may already be party to other agreements as mentioned, but because many of these have their own copyright laws. Just because you're not in the US doesn't mean you're immune to copyright.Yes, there ARE a few (but only very few) countries that have no agreed international or stated national copyright law - and people in those places can do whatever they want. AAnd no, there's nothing they can do about it. Of course, if they sell stuff to end-users in America, then you can prosecute those end-users because they're guilty of receiving stolen goods. So since your customer target base usually isn't some malay-speaking asian country, but rather mainstream users in most countries which speak english and ARE signatories to the Berne convention, you are going to be able to have a legal stand. Take fonts. Te USA made all fonts FREE. No one can charge for fonts because charging for fonts means you can inhibit the rights in the US' 1st amendment (Freedom of speech and expression) when you charge someone to print something using your font. (the Goudy relatives got greedy and brought the case to the Supreme court) Wrong, on two counts. Firstly, you are referring to typefaces. Fonts are the digital file which contains a program which generates the typeface. That's a simple description, but one which the layman can understand. The actual TTF font file itself, is an original creation and naturally is under copyright. Typefaces however (the visual depiction that the font file generates) could not be placed under copyright. Likewise, bitmap fonts were immune to copyright. Both typefaces and bitmap fonts were classes as insufficiently creative to warrant copyright protection. This is the case with the Goudy case - while TTF font files are protected, the visual depiction of the typefaces wasn't. So anyone else could draw the same font and redistribute the new file. Secondly, however - this was back in '93. The law has changed since then, and typefaces are now protected by copyright. So no - neither FONTs or typefaces, are public domain. I know this because I spent $2500.00+ pursuing a group of thieves from Russia that published a CD of "Background Images and Textures" most of which were my own and downloaded form my first interent site Green Moose Game Supply aways back in 1991. Russia couldn't touch them. No copyright law. The problem here is not copyright law. Russia DOES have copyright law, and upholds it in its courts. The reason why you didn't get anywhere is because you only spent $2500. If you actually think you're going to get Russian police to chase down their own people and lock them up for some American guy, you're going to have to throw a lot more at them than $2500. This isn't a case of lack of law, but a lack of people caring. Telling anyone its okay because in your experience they're not going to get in trouble, just confuses the problem further, rather than helping fix it. If you paid a fee to download them it would depend on the laws of your couuntry. In the USA you could still get hit with "intellectual theft" but the SIMS people didn't really make the models. They bought them. You go buy yours from the same source and you can run amuck! Paying a fee to download something doesn't transfer its rights to you. In the LEGAL FAQ post I covered the rights that are implied by copyright. Right to: Distribution, Attribution, Reproduction, Integrity, Display, Performance, and Adaptation. If you buy a song from a music site, you don't actually have any of these rights transferred to you. You can play it yourself, but that doesn't even give you the right to performance or display - ie, the public performance of the work. If you buy a 3D model from a site, you only have the rights transferred to you that are implicitly stated in the purchasing license. If it says you're allowed to use them in your own games, then you have the right to reproduction. That doesn't mean the copyright has been transferred, and it doesn't mean the copyright is null and void. It simply means you have purchased the right to use it. You can't then place another copyright on it because "you've bought it!". Of course if the 3D models waiver all rights on purchase, you can do whatever you want with it - including reselling it. If you don't 100% that what you're using is in the public domain, eg - if you don't have proof that the author of it has explicitly placed it in the public domain, then it's under copyright and you have to respect it and only use rights which have been given to you as the end user, if any. +BlackD |
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| * BotBuilder wonders if you'd get in trouble if you rented videos and projected them on a really big screen, put in seats, and let people in for $1.... :)) if you got enough people (which you would), it'd quickly pay for itself... Since you dont actually have to pay for the film like theaters. hmm Oh, and yeah. Its suprising how many people have the "I can download it, its free" attitude these days. |
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| BotBuilder wonders if you'd get in trouble if you rented videos and projected them on a really big screen, put in seats, and let people in for $1.... :)) In a way, you can legally cover some of the cost. Have your buddy come over to watch the video with you, and make him buy the popcorn. That way, he split the cost with you. |
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| Bigger companies are less in danger from piracy. It's US who have the problems as we, as Indie's, dont realy make all that much as it is, so a single copied game of sale value £20 realy loses us £20. (okay, or less if youre with another publisher) It DOES still effect all the companies, but it makes the good beginners struggle to get up and running... its a shame IMHO.... I've always admitted that i used to get stuff illegaly until i realised what it felt like to have your own stuff nicked. Pretty much since i bought Blitz ive been reformed and seen my bad ways. ;) |
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| thanks all for your reply I suppose this topic is of interest to many shareware game developers. It would be worth while , in my opinion , going a little bit deeper based on solid legal ground rather than personal feeling,ok I realize it is not a an easy task being the net rather anarchist. Anyway BlackD and BotBuilder It seems that you are accusing me of trying to take advantage of other people efforts But please read again my thread. I did not say "I can download it, its free" I said it is free "unless it is clearly forbidden " for example adding in capitol letters : "you can only use these in freeware titles, and not sell or redistribute them in any other form". that's ok It makes a big difference, I suppose. It is true that there are a lot of "Thieves" in the world but it also true that someone use to sue others to gain benfits. The law should protect both parties. |
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| The thing I'm finding difficult about keeping legal is sound effects. I can do graphics and music okay, but sound effects? How the hell do I make my own explosion sounds? Eeek! Guess I'll have to get the credit card out. |
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| Alberto.. we understood you, and you are wrong. :) You're trying to say that everything is free unless it's clearly forbidden, but in fact, the exact opposite is true. NOTHING IS FREE, UNLESS IT IS IMPLICITLY STATED BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE WORK, THAT ALL RIGHTS TO THE WORK HAVE BEEN WAIVED, AND THE WORK HAS BEEN PLACED IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. Alberto - I created an entire thread to answer these questions.. I suggest you read it. :) http://www.blitzbasic.co.nz/Community/posts.php?topic=43172 +BlackD |
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| BlackD Thanks again for your reply I read your article ,it was very interesting and useful. Just a question. The definition of copyright,public domain etc as well as the international agreements ,are ,I suppose, valid in general terms ,not specifically for the web. I mean I understand that it is "implicit" that a local newspaper is not allowed to publish a "New York Times " article without permission I also understand that is not possible to print "copyright" everywhere , so ,again it is implicit ... but if : 1)Someone create his own site 2)He allows everybody to download the models 3)He does not write "you can only use these in freeware titles..." or something like that How can he seriously shout at someone using the models even for profit? Ok ,"Common Sense" and "Law" sometimes do not get along The ancient latins said "Summa lex , summa Injuria" but it seems to me a little bit exagerate. Anyway my question is : Are you aware of some game developper being really sued assuming above 1-2-3-conditions ? |
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| Are you aware of some game developper being really sued assuming above 1-2-3-conditions ? No, because no game developer big enough to ever be noticed would download 3d models to use. :) They'd make their own. The FAQ is mainly so that people understand what they're legally allowed to do and what they're not - then of course, people will still do whatever they want. :) The point is of course, no game company is going to get big by borrowing resources. They'll only ever be a small time indie developer - and no publisher will ever buy the rights to your games as they don't have clarification on the legal status of your game - otherwise THEY could end up getting sued for distribution rights. And if you made a game good enough to warrant attention by a magazine, then obviously you'll be making some decent money from it. At that stage, someone is going to notice you're using his models and greed gets the better of everyone - he'll use the opportunity to get whatever he can from you. Usually folks will settle out of court, but will take a serious chunk of your profit in the process. Common sense says - to get started, sure - if you want to borrow free resources go ahead. Make a few little games and get people knowing your name. But then when you want to start making a living from it - make your own resources, or buy them, that way nobody will ever be able to take your money away. :) +BlackD |
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| I'm in Serbia and we got copyright protection for electronic media and stuff in 2002. I really doubt they are protecting "art" and everything very well, so unless USA placed limited sanctions on Serbia again recently i would consider ripping stuff and selling it to everyone! ;) no im not serious But laws are very different and i'm sure they dont care much about copyright in some (less developed) countries, but thats really pointless. Ignore me. |
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| Yeah when you can go down to the mercado and buy software that is CLEARLY copyrighted. How strong is the copyright protection in that country? I am in Iraq now and I know several places now where I can go and buy Windows 2000 SE and Corel Graphics Suite for about $2.00US... I found the same thing in Mexico when I lived there and in Hong Kong when there. The law does not work. It is impossible to make it work when the country you are in does not give a fat damn about it... You can pontificate all you want but bluster is only filibuster... That said I want to state that I agree with the ideas of the copyright law. I support them. I just think they really don't work. |
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| How the hell do I make my own explosion sounds 1) get microphone 2) hit record 3) Hild lips tight and go "PHHHhhhhhhhhHHHhhhhhhhhuuuhhhh" down it..... 4) Stop recording 5) Pich it down. 6) Hit play and laugh at your cool creation I actually used this technique and it works "not bad" :) |
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| My microphone is not very good so it wont record the lip sound :( |
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| Yeah, you can often times take things with a microphone that sounds remotely like what you like and mess with them until it sounds cool :) also, check out this app: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~zap/stomper/index2.html Generate sound fx, etc. Takes some work to get stuff right but hey. |
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| >May I assume that they can be used in a commercial game, >unless it is clearly forbidden ? No! You must assume the exact opposite. >As a matter of common sense, if a resource can be freely >downloaded from the web, the owner should not be entitled >to claim any rights. That's wrong. The rights remain with the owner unless he actively transfers them. >1)Someone create his own site >2)He allows everybody to download the models >3)He does not write "you can only use these in freeware >titles..." or something like that > >How can he seriously shout at someone using the models >even for profit? Because they did not have the permission of the rights owner. Always assume that a work is protected. Even if you can't find the current rights owner, then you must assume that the rights have reverted to the original creator. Andy |
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| Cygnus / Bot Builder - thanks - I'll try both :-) |
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