stealing code
Blitz3D Forums/Blitz3D Beginners Area/stealing code
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| I keep getting arguments with a friend of mine. Blitz coders (just like coders on other forums such as GameDev.net, Tek-Tips, and elsewhere leave code on thier worklogs and other forums. While forums are intended to help the programmer that posted the question out of a world of trouble, another programmer could come along, use that posted code in their own project without paying anyone a cent. That includes the poster, the person that helped the poster, or the people at Blitz Research. My friend claims that this practice is stealing. Is that true? |
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| I think this is more a moral thing than anything else, if someone posts code publicy, they know that others have the opportunity to look at it and learn from it, even copying particular algorithms. |
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| I think it depends mostly on the person who posted the code. If that person didn't specify that the code is not for anyone else's use it's probably up for grabs no problem. Still, this issue is related to that of quoting messages people have posted on forums. |
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| I would say that anything posted in a public forum is out there in the public domain and therefore free to use as one sees fit. This is assuming the code was originally offered up freely by the original author, and not posted up by another party. (example,... if someone posted the code of a library they had purchased, this would obviously not be the same issue) Proper etiquette, however, would be to give proper credit to anyone's code you used. Claiming it was your own would be pushing it, and most likely would make people less willing to help in the future. |
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| IMO any code and other info posted here is PD unless the poster said that it is not... and if someone wants to help somebody but not post the code publicly they can always use old fashioned e-mails :) |
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| IMO any code and other info posted here is PD unless the poster said that it is not... and if someone wants to help somebody but not post the code publicly they can always use old fashioned e-mails :) My opinion exactly. |
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| Its normally a good thing to include the person who posted the code in the credits of your game/application, seeing as they helped you create the game/application in the first place. As Hunted is a big beastie and I have 'perused' the code archives to get function that I couldnt do myself because of a maths deficit, I have numerous people in me credits list =) |
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| Me too. y credits list might as well have jeust been a complete userlist of these forums in fact :) |
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| What I do if I use a function or a routine obtained from here or anywhere else it to put a comment before the routine in my source code - at least I remember then. Somthing like: ;----- LASER EYE ROUTINE BY Billy the Blitz Bomber----- ;----- amended 10/04/2004 Function LASER_EYE() etc |
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| If you're not happy for other to 'steal' your code in this way, don't post it on the internet. |
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| Images are different though. I think you should ask the person beofre using images or models (unless stated by the person who posts) this is becuase you can't actually show someone something without showing them. with code u can compile it. so my opinion is: Media: defualt not use Code : defualt use |
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| It happens all the time. Only yesterday I found a foriegn site(I.e not in english) that has a whole tutorial on 2d particle systems, built around my code. http://www.gameprog.it/?resource=466 (Translated version -> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.gameprog.it/%3Fresource%3D466&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsolidkojima%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8 He did credit me, so I didn't fire off any e-mails. Another time someone posted a packer lib for files on here, was my entire lib(Tid packer, still on code arcs i think), just renamed functions. That one I did get removed though. 2d lightmappers..I invented, this bang, everyone's doing it, same technique. I could go on and on. I don't mind that much tbh, because sure it happens, but also you have to consider we nearly all learnt ourselfs using other people's code and techniques. |
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| Otacon: I see you like to call yourself THE inventor of 2D lightmapping, but I have seen many examples of this before you made one. Your lightmapper inspired me to make my own, but it has been used many times before.. You can even see the same techniques being used in the OOOLD Rogue games.. shadowcasting and tracing.. (using ascii instead of pixels) There was even a game I played just before I found blitzbasic, an RPG which used realtime lightmapping, pushing around objects and stuff.. I can't remember the title though :( (will search for it) Oh well.. you probably won't care what I think, but at least now I said it :) |
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| Yep, any code i post is for use by anyone, without credit. It's up to yourself whether you want to credit the code. I personally always do though, cause i'm polite. Lol |
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| Ash, no way man, game over man, freakin' game over! ;p Seriously though, I've never seen 2d lightmapping used before I did it. Definitely the first blitz version then, if as you say, it's been done elsewhere. |
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| Ash, no way man, game over man, freakin' game over! ;p hehe.. sounds like a reply from Aliens ^^ .. "How can they cut the power man?! they're animals!!" I am searching high and low for the game I mentioned, but since I don't remember the name, its kind of difficult ^^ EDIT: YAH! Nox it was, from westwood studios. Realtime shadowcasting in 2D. "http://www.avault.com/reviews/images/nox9.jpg" Shadowbaking on the other hand, thats something to consider.. |
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| That looks more like Line of sight than a 2d lightmapper. What mine did, was render every pixel, light it *and* bake the shadows into it. I.e identical to a 3d one. I'm not saying it hasn't been done before, only that I've yet to see any evidence, and that shot doesn't really change that tbh.;) 2nd, I did a raytraced bump-mapped 2d lightmapper. Won't find any old game with that! :0 |
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| Yeah well I see what you mean, but the techniques are similar in both "line of sight" and "lightmapper" and "shadow mapping". heh.. you made a raytraced bump-mapped 2d lightmapper.. have YOU made a game with it? :D or else its just a tech demo ^^ If you haven't noticed, Im kindof just arguing for the sake of arguing.. so this probably belongs in Off-topic.. |
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| As long as I win the argument, it doesn't bother me. ;) |
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| As long as I get to have the last word, Im content.. ^^ |
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| As long as I get to have the last word, Im content.. ^^ me too :) |
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| It's like leaving money on the sidewalk and then complaining when someone picks it up. If you post something publicly, be prepared for people to take/use it. |
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| A loty of people have simply stipulated 'Please mention me in your credits if you use this' in the Code Archives. Also, the code in the archives is there for a reason, to be learned from, altered and used. Therefore, feel free, but be polite and acknowledge where it came from :) |
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| Some of you have got the laws wrong, nothing is public domain unless the author/owner have declared it so. |
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| Laws or not, you're going to have a tough time proving that someone took your "bitmap inversion" routine or whatever. If you don't want people using your code, don't post it. |
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| I have said this before - people should put their name in the actual block of code - I have code that I don't know who it was written by. However, some people who post their code may not care whether it is used or not - who's to say they wrote the code in the first place? Some of the demo code that I saw being distributed by PC Format had the original credits removed - I'm not sure who by - One example was "Rob's" cubemapping demo - Originally, it had a disclaimer in it - now the disclaimer is gone, but I'm not sure if "Rob" removed it or someone else did. I think it is best that people specify their disclaimers in the code. |
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| If you steal a whole program it IS theft, but it is ok to take fragments of code to use in what is 99 percent your own program. Most of the time your code would have to be similar in any case if it is to produce the same results. |
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| How do you know that you really invented something totally new? Answer is, you don't. Computer programming as a practice is now over 50 years old, and every math and science student has done some of it, and commerical developers and scientists/engineers/mathamaticians have done even more. Many of the algorythms and formulas go back for generations, and were well understood before we had computers to make them practical. Copyright law only protects the expression of an idea -- you cannot patent an algorythm (chemical formulas seem to be something of an exception, but many formulas are never released to prevent their exposure and duplication when the patent runs out). Copyright law has been tightened and extended, but publishing a work in a public place without a copyright notice is stupid if you think people aren't going to take it for granted that you meant for them to have free and ready access to it and the right to adapt or reuse it. Computer code is recognized now as copyrightable, but the down side is that some code only works a certain way for certain operations. People have lost copyright cases because of mere similarities, and a successful countersuit may find that your code also has elements that duplicates other prior work -- so taken to the extreme, you may win a hollow victory if it means your code makes you equally liable to someone else's claims. The point is, if you bring the lawmakers, lawyers, and courts into it, then sound reason goes out the window and you are managed by people and processes that do not understand the need to learn, train, teach, and exemplify how code works by publishing fragments of it here and there. I occasionally publish tips, because I've been there, and have moved on, and yet I owe those that helped me, and my way of paying back is to continue the process by helping otherw. That should be understood and supported in the community. My experience has been that concerns over copyright on forums is a newbie issue, because that person thinks that they will shortly have some fantastic code written unlike any ever written before. Or they are afraid that if they use or adapt code from a forum, that they face the prospect of a future lawsuit. One is unlikely, and the other is almost absurb. Sample code does not have the complexity and range of functions needed to make them full fledge applications. It would likely take many thousands of such examples to base a program on, and the amount of adaptation and conversion needed to fit all the pieces together would be so extensive that any similarities to the original would simply disappear. And most programmers have better things to do with their time than to search for evidence that someone may have adopted a part of their code and used it elsewhere. If they did a nice piece of work, and it surfaces later on, they like having their egos stroked just a bit with some form of acknowledgement of their work, acknowledging that this was something special, and where it came from. But let's face facts: If you aren't willing to follow through and complete the work and make it commercially viable, then how can you really fault someone else who had more gumption and moxy, and wgo did it instead of you? |
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| "The point is, if you bring the lawmakers, lawyers, and courts into it, then sound reason goes out the window and you are managed by people and processes that do not understand the need to learn, train, teach, and exemplify how code works by publishing fragments of it here and there." = True I look at this forum as a class room. In a class room concepts and ideas are shared, and that is how mankind progresses. If I did not have a place like this forum I would probly have to try learn from a book like C++ in 24 hours. HA! Acualy I did try that before I found blitz. Anyhow, I will gladly give credit to anyone who helped me make, learn to make, or or even just pointed me in the right direction, especialy if what I used it for made me some $$$$$$. On the other hand if someone used some code that I posted on this site then awsome I gave somethin back. |
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| I really didn't think this would be an issue, and anyone who pulls up someone else for using their code, if they posted, unmarked, has problems, and should try and get out more... |
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| EXAMPLE: Person A > How can I print words to the screen Person B > Try using 'Print "My words" ' Person A > Thanks, Person B - that's just what I wanted. Person B did not create the code, and Person A's final coding would look more like... 'Print variable + "-Other words " + variable' however, Person A could at least (if the code used was significant in the whle program), state 'With thanks to Person B' in credit. Why else would anyone ask how to do something if they weren't going to use the code offered (at least as a guideline)? And why would anyone post code if they were only going to object to it being used....... |
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| Why else would anyone ask how to do something if they weren't going to use the code offered (at least as a guideline)? And why would anyone post code if they were only going to object to it being used....... End of story. The point of posting code is not to say "this is how I do it and so I forbid anyone else from using the same method". Just give credit where it's due. Copying is the sincerest form of flattery. Passing other peoples work off as your own is just plain sad. |
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| A lot of people smack of arrogance. It isn't stealing. |
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| My friend claims that this practice is stealing. Is that true? No. Some of you have got the laws wrong, nothing is public domain unless the author/owner have declared it so. But unless you live in the US, derrived works are not considered works of the original author, particularly in computer programs where the original work would typicly only ammount to an insignificant portion of the entire code. |
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| If you post source, you are giving it away. Pure and simple. |
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| All your bytes are belong to us -sorry had to - |
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| I want to go on record as saying that I am new to B3D but I am learning fast because everyone (with a sad few exceptions) is answering Q's when I can formulate a cognizant question (even though I can't seem to spell cognizant correctly!) I post code and if it is posted it is for use. I apologize in advance if what I post does not work. I look at other code from inside B3D or persons on the board and take it apart to learn how they did something. Recently I was sent some code by a great guy and I not only learned a ne method of opening doors but I also learned a good deal about using PICK... We have to share to learn. I am not a treehugger but I do believe that if you do not want anyone else to use your code then go away... You don't share you don't get to share. |
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| I have said this before - people should put their name in the actual block of code - I have code that I don't know who it was written by. I agree. I have no problem giving credit where it is due, but it is hard to credit somebody when they don't put their name on their work. :c( |
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| Ps: 2d lightmappers..I invented, this bang, everyone's doing it, same technique. Where would I find that one, I would like to steal it, lol |
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| Oh yeah, forgot to mention - if you use my code you need to pay me monthly fees :P |
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| I don't see how it's posible to steal code from a forum. After all, it's just bits of code that explain how something can be archieved; someone takes it, runs it, studies it, finds out how it works, thinks "hey! what if...", modifies it, and finaly uses his own version in his code. Then maybe he posts his way of doing it, when someone asks in a forum, and the process repeats itself. Stealing code is different, it's getting someones code and changing the credits. Of course, it's always nice to thank those that have helped you. |
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| Wow!, I didn't expect such a response to such a question. I don't know if I'll convince my friend to post his project in the worklogs, but since this is only one of my games that I'm working on, (I normally program in C++ Builder, hopefully one of you Blitz programmers are working on an interface similiar to that environment)I guess I will, if only to gain a new set of online 'friends' Thanks for the response guys, (or gals if there are any out there. Are there any gals out there?) |
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| >(or gals if there are any out there. Are there any gals >out there?) Don't go there... Do a search in OT first! Andy |
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| What is OT, Andy? |
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| OT = Off Topic, one of the other areas of this forum. |
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| Thanks zawran. |
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