Why not just move to XNA?

Archives Forums/General Discussion/Why not just move to XNA?

Vertigo(Posted 2007) [#1]
.


dynaman(Posted 2007) [#2]
> If you want to use an external language, especially C# why not just move to XNA?

The Blitz3D command set is much more intuitive for me. It works with older hardware and Operating Systems (I still have a couple machines with win2K).


Gabriel(Posted 2007) [#3]
What is it with all the negative posts? Do you go into your supermarket and demand to know why they're selling bananas when you clearly don't like them? Do you go into your local car dealership and ask why they're selling red cars, which clearly clash with your green garage door? If you don't see a reason to buy it, seems like the smart thing to do is not buy it.

I also love that in the couple of days this forum has been open nearly everyone who complained that the SDK was useless, outdated, had no use for it, yadda yadda, is also moaning about being asked to pay for it again. As though somehow they'd have 1001 uses for it if they got it for free.


Barnabius(Posted 2007) [#4]
If every other excuse fails we can always say that it's nice to play with a new toy. Is that a good enough reason? ;-)

Barney


Abrexxes(Posted 2007) [#5]
>everyone who complained that the SDK was useless, outdated, had no use for it, yadda yadda,

Some people wants that mark spend his time to other thinks like uptodate 3D (no not Dx10, but shadows must be possible in 2007) in an other licens that most of people have.

;)


@rtur(Posted 2007) [#6]
BlitzMax+B3DSDK - very good solution for casual games. It's like "language upgrade" for Blitz3D users.

If you are developing nextgen titles than you, of course, can use XNA for it.


Abrexxes(Posted 2007) [#7]
>It's like "language upgrade" for Blitz3D users.

Lol. The first time that you must buy for an "upgrade" more than for the full version. The result is the same. hahah


Gabriel(Posted 2007) [#8]
Some people wants that mark spend his time to other thinks like uptodate 3D (no not Dx10, but shadows must be possible in 2007) in an other licens that most of people have.


That in no way relates to the comment you've quoted ( or technically, misquoted, since you've broken it in half, losing the context completely ) but since you've decided to address that to me, I'm well aware what people want. I'm only fuzzy on what makes them think they have to write to demand it and complain loudly over and over again - interrupting business in the process - when they don't get it.


Abrexxes(Posted 2007) [#9]
No, thats ok. I am sorry, i havent seen in my licens that it is forbiden to "ask" for "features" (over and over).

>- interrupting business in the process

Progress? Ok.


Gabriel(Posted 2007) [#10]
i havent seen in my licens that it is forbiden to "ask" for "features" (over and over).

If you can't tell the difference between posting in a completely different forum ( at least it was until it was - correctly in my view - moved somewhere else ) complaining about how useless the product is and "asking" for "features" ( no idea why those are in quotes, but I thought it might be important ) then you need more help than any explanation from me could provide.

Progress? Ok.

No, process.


H&K(Posted 2007) [#11]
I dont like XNA.

Simple as that.

Got the whole VS set when they came out, same with XNA, and I just dont like them


dynaman(Posted 2007) [#12]
That's the great thing about 3DSDK. *I* like VS, H&K does not, but we can each make use of Blitz in our preferred environment now.


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#13]
I like XNA and Blitz... Recently, I've spent more time with BlitzMax, and its growing on me, though, the IDE is still pants, but with a new IDE in the pipeline, I can grin and bare it! ;)

I rarely do anything in blitz with 3D, though I will probably buy the SDK as I enjoy continuely supporting BRL, like many others, I've bought everything.

Dabz


VP(Posted 2007) [#14]
Dabz: There's BLIde, if you want a decent dev environment for max. It's not perfect (few things that use .NET are) but it does a good impression of it.


Winni(Posted 2007) [#15]
You could also ask why we all just not move hand-in-hand to the Source, X-Ray or Cry Engine and their SDKs and toolsets? Or a Cray supercomputer with some nice weather simulation software on it.

Blitz is providing a nice interim solution here for all Blitz3D coders that have not yet migrated to BlitzMax because Max3D is not yet ready. So at least the Windows coders now no longer have a reason not to switch. To make the thing even sweeter, they added support for other languages which might attract new customers that do not want to code in a BASIC-language and only need a decent game engine. So there is a market for it and there will be customers.

I won't buy it because the SDK is Windows-only, and therefore completely uninteresting for me -- I care for the Mac, but not for Windows. I also do not need a 3D engine at this very moment. But that is just me and my personal needs. If I was a Blitz3D user, however, I'd put the bucks on the table and move on to BlitzMax plus the B3SDK. It's a great migration path and you can use it with a nice OO language. 100 bucks just is no money for a tool like that and the folks at Blitz also don't get free beer and Pizza and have rents to pay.

If you want free software, use free software and live with its shortcomings.

If you like XNA or think it is a great solution for what you do, go ahead and use it. It's just that nobody should expect any kind of support or understanding from loyal Blitz users for frustrated trolling against the new B3SDK or its ridiculously low price.


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#16]
@vinylpusher

I had it vinyl mate, and yep, its not perfect for me, as in, it hangs when loading up a project with imported max files... And I had BLide loading up the current project on start up, which meant it was un-useable, unless I probably reinstall it.

I use my PC for business, I have accounts on here, as well as client info/Material orders/Price lists etc, as soon as I meet an app that throws a wobbler, I tend to stay away. :)

Dabz


Vertigo(Posted 2007) [#17]
.


Gabriel(Posted 2007) [#18]
Well I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but I didn't think

I already paid for B3d once, why pay for it again? And technically this isnt even an update.

sounded like it was referring to new users who were currently using C# and hadn't used B3D before. I guess I was mistaken.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#19]
What are the pros and cons from your point of view regarding XNA for game development?


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#20]

Oh and for the record XNA is pathetic :)



I've built a couple of things with XNA, and found it quite an enjoyable experience:-

http://www.syntaxbomb.com/forum/index.php/board,47.0.html

I currently have a side project under way that involves XNA, so... My question is, what taumel said:-


What are the pros and cons from your point of view regarding XNA for game development?



?

Dabz


taumel(Posted 2007) [#21]
?=What is good about it and what not...


FlameDuck(Posted 2007) [#22]
If you want to use an external language, especially C# why not just move to XNA?
Or DirectX or OpenGL? Don't you think it's a somewhat pointless question to ask? Why not use an untested API, instead of a throughly tested (if somewhat dated) game engine? I guess it's time to play "deduce the obvious" with uncle FlameDuck.

* I don't want to have to write my own collision detection and response / physics / camera / lighting / weighted animation system / scene graph / etc...
* Unless I have to, I don't want to be bothered with issues like gimbal lock / SLERP / Culling / LOD / etc...
* For less than one days salary, I can buy not only Blitz3DSDK, but also TV3D, both of which are very complete engines.
* XNA is tied into the XBox360 architechture, and it is unlikely that it will get any "cool" features that the XBox360 cannot do.

Its free
It is not free, by any definition of the word.

and constantly updated by microsoft.
If there were no other reason not to use it, that would be it.

Oh and for the record XNA is pathetic
No it isn't. Remember it takes Microsoft five major versions to produce useful software.

What are the pros and cons from your point of view regarding XNA for game development?
Pros:
* It's a Microsoft product, and eventually (after about five versions) it will, like other Microsoft products, completely dominate its market.

Cons:
* Until then, there are better alternatives available, with less restrictive licenses and/or for smaller amounts of money.

You know I wasn't particularly impressed with Unity - but until XNA 5.0 I'd definately go for Unity over XNA.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#23]
@FlameDuck
Okay thanks...

>>>
You know I wasn't particularly impressed with Unity - but until XNA 5.0 I'd definately go for Unity over XNA.
<<<

Yep and in my opinion you did not investigate the tool well as your comments seemed quite superficial but that's another story...


Dazza(Posted 2007) [#24]
>>Its free
>>>>It is not free, by any definition of the word.

Can you elaborate on such a definitive statement.

Last time I looked it was a free download from the Microsoft site, including the Microsoft Visual C# Express IDE environment.

If ya wanna release on XBox then you have to pay, Windows is free.


Takuan(Posted 2007) [#25]
If i red it right, XNA's license sucks.


CoderLaureate(Posted 2007) [#26]
Because This:
public class Camera {
        /// <summary>
        /// A global projection matrix since it never changes
        /// </summary>
        private Matrix projection;

        /// <summary>
        /// A global view matrix since it never changes
        /// </summary>
        private Matrix view;

        /// <summary>
        /// The Camera position which never changes
        /// </summary>
        private Vector3 viewPosition;

        #region Properties
        public Matrix Projection {
            get {
                return projection;
            }
        }

        public Matrix View {
            get {
                return view;
            }
        }

        public Vector3 ViewPosition {
            get {
                return viewPosition;
            }
            set {
                viewPosition = value;
                view = Matrix.CreateLookAt(viewPosition, Vector3.Zero, Vector3.Up);
            }
        }
        #endregion

        public Camera(float fov, float aspectRatio, float nearPlane, float farPlane) {
            projection = Matrix.CreatePerspectiveFieldOfView(fov, aspectRatio, nearPlane, farPlane);
        }
    }


Is *MUCH* more complicated than this:

int cam = bb.CreateCamera();



Robert Cummings(Posted 2007) [#27]
not really. It's clearly showing a lot more options like aspect ratios, planes, etc... all which would require seperate blitz commands anyway.

Whats more you wouldn't need to touch that class.

Before being opinionated it would be nice to see hello world in both with a spinning cube.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#28]
Hmmm in XNA Game Studio Express you also would write one line which defines the viewport for the camera and place it in the autogenerated Update function.

I suspect (as i don't know Blitz3D a lot) that Blitz3D hides more from you and is easier to use when you're dealing with more simple stuff. If things get more complex and you need DX9 support XNA wins.

Nice site for english people http://creators.xna.com/


WedgeBob(Posted 2007) [#29]
Uhm, now that we're on the game console development topic, did Nintendo confirm which language would be used for the Wii at all, when that comes across? Was that C# also?


John Pickford(Posted 2007) [#30]
Why would I move to platform where I can't freely distribute or sell my game?


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#31]

Why would I move to platform where I can't freely distribute or sell my game?



You can if your supporting Windows only. So if your not fussed about supporting other OS platforms, it is actually a sensible direction to head in.

And to avoid a *but yeah, but no, but yeah* scenerio, a MSDN programmer told me this is the case, as this was one of my first questions before trying it.

Dabz


taumel(Posted 2007) [#32]
@John
As for XNA on XP/Vista you're already able to as it's free for commercial usage there. For Xbox 360 there will be a XNA Pro licence but there is no information available about how the conditions will be.


FlameDuck(Posted 2007) [#33]
As for XNA on XP/Vista you're already able to as it's free for commercial usage there.
For starters it doesn't even work on Vista. Secondly you really should read the EULA (or get a lawyer to explain it to you) if you don't think there are any strings attached to XNA and Visual Studio Express development.

Plenty of developers have already gotten into serious legal troubles with Microsoft.


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#34]

For starters it doesn't even work on Vista.



http://www.nuclex.org/articles/xna-game-studio-express-1-0-on-vista

And guess what, its running fine and dandy here on Vista Home Premium! :)


Plenty of developers have already gotten into serious legal troubles with Microsoft.



Could you point us to some links Flame, as I am interested in what type of trouble they/us may run into. Its all well saying devs run into bother, but what bother?

Dabz


dynaman(Posted 2007) [#35]
> Could you point us to some links Flame, as I am interested in what type of trouble they/us may run into.

There is only one I have ever seen, it is illegal to write extensions to the Express IDE and somebody did so. (other then the normal stuff like not claiming it as your own, not having the right to redistribute it, etc...)


taumel(Posted 2007) [#36]
@FlameDuck
From my experience it runs fine on Vista and XP and for a professional usage. I don't know what kind of problems you're talking about, no problems here. If you're buying the membership for the gamecreators club $99 a year you'll get the runtime and libs for the Xbox360 (You also get TorqueX for free then) with which you can publish for the console (connected via ethernet) on a private not commecial usage. Beside of homebrew stuff this is especially great for small developers who want to make a step into the console world and build prototypes or complete games which they can offer to publishers. What you can't do is selling your stuff on Xbox 360 yet. This will be addressed in XNA Pro, were no details have been announced yet.

In my opinion this is the best offer there is around from all the console makers out there. You can access all the hardware! Sony doesn't offer this and Nintendo's WiiWare also won't offer this as it seems that you'll still need a devkit. If you have a devkit you still will need a gametool to make your game. For this you can choose unity2 for instance but this will cost you a) a unity pro licence and b) an extra licence to publish for the Wii on top of the devkit. I have no idea how you can develop games for the ps3 which can make use of the hardware. Anyone around?

Obviously best would be if they would give it out for free or for a fixed amount of money instead of a membership or only charge you for the pro version but on the other side you won't get a better deal for homebrew suff on a legal base for a console at the moment.


Dreamora(Posted 2007) [#37]
No you don't get a deal for Homebrew as you are not allowed to share that stuff with other X360 owners. It allows you to create games for you, but does not give you the license to spread this to other owners (for that reasons you can not transfer it from X360 directly to other users)


taumel(Posted 2007) [#38]
Hmmm that's a problem how you define homebrew. If i can code something on my console that's homebrew for me, it doesn't involve distribution automatically.

With the current licence you can publish in two ways: a) publish your xbox360 game for windows (maybe needs rework on the shader side depending on what you use) or b) distribute your project file to other users who are members too.

Not the best methods but tell me a better deal developing for a console in this pricerange!


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#39]

No you don't get a deal for Homebrew as you are not allowed to share that stuff with other X360 owners. It allows you to create games for you, but does not give you the license to spread this to other owners (for that reasons you can not transfer it from X360 directly to other users)



From the FAQ:-


Q: How can I share my Xbox 360 game built with XNA Game Studio Express with other Xbox 360 users?
A: To share your Xbox 360 game with friends, four requirements must be met:

The individual you are planning to share the game with must be logged in to Xbox Live and have an active subscription to the XNA Creators Club
The receiving user must have downloaded the XNA Framework runtime environment for the Xbox 360
The receiving user must have XNA Game Studio Express installed on their own development PC
The game project, including all source and content assets, must be shared with the receiving user. The receiving user then compiles and deploys the game to their Xbox 360.
We are actively working on other ways to allow you to more easily distribute your games and are very excited about the possibilities this will open up for independent game development.



Where does it say you cannot share your game?

To me, this is in fact directed at the home brew community!

Dabz


AlexO(Posted 2007) [#40]

No you don't get a deal for Homebrew as you are not allowed to share that stuff with other X360 owners. It allows you to create games for you, but does not give you the license to spread this to other owners (for that reasons you can not transfer it from X360 directly to other users)



Correct, Not every X360 owner. But anyone who has a creators club license is capable (and allowed) to share with other CC owners. But for windows development it's all fair game to distribute your game. X360 isn't the ONLY platform for XNA (and imo, not worth developing for unless you're going commercial). People keep focusing on the restrictions of developing for the 360 instead of Windows for some reason...
...To each his own I guess.


FlameDuck(Posted 2007) [#41]
From my experience it runs fine on Vista and XP and for a professional usage.
I'm just going by what Microsoft say. XNA is not supported on Vista. I'm glad you're not experiencing any troubles.

this is especially great for small developers who want to make a step into the console world and build prototypes or complete games which they can offer to publishers.
You can do that without XNA. If you contact any publisher at all, inquiring about a deal, they will tell you to submit a prototype that runs on DirectX. If they like the game they will either a) front you the money for a proper SDK, team and other development tools. b) Buy the rights to it, and sub-contract it to a more experienced developer.

This will be addressed in XNA Pro, were no details have been announced yet.
Cheap shot, I know, but if no details have been announced, then how do you know?

You can access all the hardware!
No you can't. XNA does not give you access to any hardware. XNA gives you access to .Net wrapper objects for DirectX which interfaces with the drivers who manipulate driver data.

Where does it say you cannot share your game?
The last five lines.


smilertoo(Posted 2007) [#42]
You are free to do as you like with xna on pc.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#43]
I have the feeling that each time i'm commenting to one of your statements it's just a pure waste of time as you're more into believing in what you want to believe no matter how things work out for others so a last quote from me to this. Do with it what you want...

a) It runs on Vista and XP.
b) It is great as i know of a few small firms which exactly went through this.
c) You don't need to know.
d) I can utalize the hardware fine via XACT, via shaders, ...
e) Maybe rereading one of the above comments helps...

fin


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#44]

I have the feeling that each time i'm commenting to one of your statements it's just a pure waste of time as you're more into believing in what you want to believe no matter how things work out for others so a last quote from me to this.



Thats flameduck! :)

Dabz


FlameDuck(Posted 2007) [#45]
You are free to do as you like with xna on pc.
So much like any other API then, and still much less than a proper 3D engine.

a) It runs on Vista and XP.
And you know this because you've tried it on every conceivable Vista configuration? In any case Microsoft QA guys have a configuration that it doesn't work on, and that's what I'm going by - not whether it works on your PC or not.

b) It is great as i know of a few small firms which exactly went through this.
Name one. I know for a fact that neither IO Interactive nor Deadline Games went through XNA.

The idea that XNA offers any advantage over any other API, when approaching publishers is ridiculous. If you know of companies who got a break, good for them - but chances are they would have gotten it regardless of using XNA. Sure if by "publisher" you mean "Microsoft Casual Games" and by "console" you mean "XBox360" then maybe. But I seriously doubt that the real or imagined advantage is worth the cost of the exclusion of every other publisher or platform in the world.

c) You don't need to know.
Well I'm certainly not going to just take your word for it, so I guess I do need to know.

d) I can utalize the hardware fine via XACT, via shaders, ...
So you concede that you cannot access the hardware using XNA?

Maybe rereading one of the above comments helps.
The fact is that you cannot share your XNA game with other XBox360 owners. Seeing how Live Arcade is doing much better than (most) commercial XBox360 games, it's somewhat questionable that you ever will be able to. Using your own definition of sharing doesn't change this.


AlexO(Posted 2007) [#46]

For starters it doesn't even work on Vista...


Straight from MS's XNA download site:

System Requirements
Supported Operating Systems: Windows Vista; Windows XP Service Pack 2

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=12ADCD12-7A7B-4413-A0AF-FF87242A78DE&displaylang=en


Name one. I know for a fact that neither IO Interactive nor Deadline Games went through XNA.


http://www.xblarcade.com/node/462 Torpex Games.


Dabz(Posted 2007) [#47]

No you can't. XNA does not give you access to any hardware. XNA gives you access to .Net wrapper objects for DirectX which interfaces with the drivers who manipulate driver data.



Quite correct, XNA is undoubtabley a wrapper extension for the dot net framework, and all of it is wrapped around an unmanaged core. I think of XNA like any other high-level API such as GDI. It keeps you away from all the heartache and lets you 'create something' in a reasonable time frame.

I dont think any big devs will go near it in the not so distant future, as the wrapper will obviously cause a slow down when resolving itself back to unmanaged calls to DirectX.

But as far as indi development, I see a future for it.

*Dabz hides under the desk awaiting a tidal wave of XNA based Match 3's*

Dabz


Hotcakes(Posted 2007) [#48]
You can access all the hardware! Sony doesn't offer this

The only hardware you're restricted from using on the PS3 is the GPU - and that's nVidia's doing. If that concerns you, write them and tell them to hurry up and make Cell drivers.

I have no idea how you can develop games for the ps3 which can make use of the hardware. Anyone around?

If you're talking PS3 side (not Linux side) then that involves a pricey devkit. Though maybe there are discounts for PSN titles, as they all appear to be budget titles.


smilertoo(Posted 2007) [#49]
XNA gives access to all the dx9 features and is free...can't complain about that. It's just not as simple to use as bmax.


smilertoo(Posted 2007) [#50]
XNA gives access to all the dx9 features and is free...can't complain about that. It's just not as simple to use as bmax.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#51]
@Dabz
Yep but smaller devs in germany already do the transition or start from scratch with it as it reduces devtime compared to a DX/C++ solution. It also does make sense as you don't need the optimal performance for each game/genre and it always depends on your project were exactly a bottleneck might be and if it shows up at all.


taumel(Posted 2007) [#52]
Some news... http://www.developmag.com/news/28300/Microsoft-reveals-XNA-Game-Studio-Express-20


Boiled Sweets(Posted 2007) [#53]
But no actually available yet :-(


taumel(Posted 2007) [#54]
Well, you can already start with the latest version now and later on use the new one if you're really in need.


D4NM4N(Posted 2007) [#55]
Its amazing how many posts a simple '.' can generate :P

Ill have to try it sometime ;)


taumel(Posted 2007) [#56]
Makes you think how a : may bomb in! :O)


pappavis(Posted 2007) [#57]

Why not just move to XNA?



XNA is really cool but heavyweight. Sure, the debugger of Visual Studio is my Blitzmax wet dream ;).

Can one write Hello World in 1 line of code in XNA, without linking/import extra class libs and viewpots and what-have you?

Eat this XNA :))
Graphics 800,600, 0; While Not KeyHit(key_escape) Cls(); For i = 10 To 400 DrawText("try Hello World in XNA", 10, i); flip(); Next; Wend


Anyone who wanna start games programming should start out with Blitzmax. It kix XNA-butt due to the simplicity.