Thoughts on Lion?

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ima747(Posted 2011) [#1]
Don't know how many other people have played with the developer or GM builds of lion, but thought I'd see what the reaction was if anyone has...

Personally:
I'm probably going to be forced to upgrade for the iCloud features, and if I had a MacBook Air it would probably be pretty nice. But on rig it absolutely destroys my productivity for a number of reasons:
They killed spaces: I quarantine various things I'm working on into different spaces, and have certain apps set to launch in certain spaces. This is totally ruined by unifying expose and spaces. I no longer have control in a way I can easily or automatically manage making it a dead feature that I rely on.
They killed expose too: I use expose IN my spaces, I explicitly DON'T want to see all the windows in space 1 if I'm in space 2. So much for easy management.
They changed the mouse acceleration: Most people won't notice, but if you have 3 screens and you move the mouse a little too fast it ZOOMS to the far edge of the far screen... that is going to take a LONG time to get used to, and won't translate back to older OS versions, or windows, or linux etc... why?
Personal taste: I like the look of the iOS style scroll bars, and the concept of auto hiding them, but I want them shown all the time so I can see how far scrolled I am without having to change things (it's not quantum physics here...) and when you turn them on all the time they're ugly ugly. Also reversed scrolling as the default? That's natural for NO ONE. It's natural with a touch interface on iOS it will scare people comming from windows... or linux... or older mac OS... you know... everyone ever. Full screen apps are great for beginners... you know, the people that won't know HOW to get an app full screen... likewise with launch pad. For the rest of us they're a distraction that reduces productivity.

For me Lion is like vista... I'm going to be forced into it for some annoying technical reason and I'm going to be kicking and screaming until they come to their senses or I can find enough 3rd party stuff to make it actually work.

That's my little rant anyway. Counter argument? Agreements?


GfK(Posted 2011) [#2]
Haven't seen it, and know nothing about it. But I'll upgrade to it as a matter of necessity.


xlsior(Posted 2011) [#3]
Supposedly they also disabled out-of-the-box support for NTFS volumes due to licensing reasons, which could be massively inconvenient if you use NTFS formatted flash or external HD's.


Winni(Posted 2011) [#4]
I've written down my thoughts about Lion in the last two entries on my blog.

For an Apple Dot Zero release, Lion is surprisingly stable. I've had more problems with Snow Leopard and Leopard when they were released.

Personally, I find the "new" Finder ugly and even more chaotic than the "old" one. Launch Pad leaves me wondering if Apple mistakes my 27" iMac for a gigantic iPad and I still wonder what Mission Control actually wants to do for me. There are also a couple of technical glitches and bugs; sometimes when I launch a program, the system falls into some kind of sleep mode for a couple of seconds before anything happens. I never had this on an older version of OS X. Also, a bunch of software that ran stable on Snow Leopard now crashes very frequently: Apple Aperture, Pulp, Firefox and especially Steam and everything else that opens multiple network connections.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter whether we like it or not. All new Macs are going to be shipped with Lion and rather sooner than later Apple (and others) will make sure that their next software released will require Lion. Unless we want to fall behind, we will have to upgrade. The same happens in Windows land with each new Windows release, and I also don't know anybody who is still using a ten years old Linux distribution either.

With its 64-Bit CPU requirement, Lion is marking another technology shift. I wonder if the successor of Lion will be able to still run 32-Bit software at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple were going to deprecate 32-Bit Cocoa soon.

With iCloud coming this fall, I also wouldn't be surprised if all forthcoming Macs would come without optical drives in their default configuration. Since iCloud is a "free" service - and the operating system already being available on the Mac App Store anyway - they could almost rightfully claim that no-one is going to need DVD drives anymore. Eventually, this means an even tighter lock-in to Apple for their customers. But will anybody really care?

The question on this forum should be whether Monkey is the only migration path to writing 64-Bit software in a BRL language and will there be some (official) support for iCloud and other new Lion features in the BRL ecosystem?


ima747(Posted 2011) [#5]
Judging by how long it took to drop PPC support I don't think they'll be dropping 32 bit in the next major release... but possibly the one after.

Dropping optical is not likely to happen in the next generation or 2 either. Digital distribution just isn't strong enough, they're using Lion as a test bed for large scale releases via the app store (since it's dependent on snow leopard to have the app store, and if you can't run snow leopard you can't run lion guaranteed...). Clearly apple would love to kill off optical but it's too critical to the majority of users still (can't install windows in boot camp without it, can't install any older software without it, can't play movies without it, a huge percentage of people still use optical just to share files, everyone has something archived on an optical disc. etc.). Maybe in 2 generations this will be realistic. They're clearly not interested in supporting blu-ray so if/when blu-ray becomes a major format player then they have the perfect excuse to dump optical (as other formats with be depreciated anyway at that point).

There's too much in it's infancy to really predict WHEN the changes will occur (how many users actually use the app store. How many of them can afford a multi GB download. etc.) but I agree that all those changes will happen eventually. Just a matter of when is it common enough to be able to say "sucks if you don't have ____".

Everyone is forced to upgrade eventually true (icloud is likely to be the tipping point for me) but is it going to be a vista like upgrade where people are kicking and screaming because of the bad design decisions (mission control, etc.) or is it the usual mass flocking at launch. I think mass launch day adoption is unlikely this time around given that most of the new bells and whistles that are popular are invisible, and the stuff you can see is generally getting bad reviews in the real world, especially when you factor in the backwards compatibility issues present in the GM, and also that you will HAVE to have snow leopard and a broadband connection, and patience for multi GB downloads and confidence to install an OS yourself (these things rule out ALMOST everyone I know that isn't a real tech head).


OscarBraindeaD(Posted 2011) [#6]
Hi all.
Just out curiosity, has somebody tried blitzmax in Lion?
Regards

Last edited 2011


xlsior(Posted 2011) [#7]
Just out curiosity, has somebody tried blitzmax in Lion?
Regards


A few people -- based on their forum postings, apparently the blitzmax IDe crashes on Lion at the moment...


GfK(Posted 2011) [#8]
I thought that was the Monkey IDE? I guess they're about the same thing, though.


Qube(Posted 2011) [#9]

They killed spaces: I quarantine various things I'm working on into different spaces, and have certain apps set to launch in certain spaces. This is totally ruined by unifying expose and spaces. I no longer have control in a way I can easily or automatically manage making it a dead feature that I rely on.
They killed expose too: I use expose IN my spaces, I explicitly DON'T want to see all the windows in space 1 if I'm in space 2. So much for easy management.



They've not killed off spaces, just changed it a little. Launch mission control then hover your mouse at the top right of the screen and click the + sign to add more desktops :)

Lion (GM release) is faster and smoother in operation than SL. I like the new Mail and no doubt some will dislike it but it can be make to act / look like the previous version.

I loathe the new Calendar look and hope they change it back to a none iOS look. It's out of place compared to everything else.

I'm not too sure about the squarer buttons as I kinda liked the rounded button of SL but this is such a small niggle it's hardly a killer :p

Lauchpad made me go WTF! when I first saw it, we don't need iPad fluff on OS X. However, after using it and moving stuff around how I want it is pretty handy to have your have apps on one screen at the click on a button.

So far, overal I'm very impressed with Lion (GM release) as the important things like speed and stability are there.


xlsior(Posted 2011) [#10]
Lauchpad made me go WTF! when I first saw it, we don't need iPad fluff on OS X.


It's a sign of the times, unfortunately -- Microsoft is going completely off the deep end with Windows 8, essentially making your PC look like a glorified zune (because we all know how well those were received)


GfK(Posted 2011) [#11]
Microsoft is going completely off the deep end with Windows 8, essentially making your PC look like a glorified zune
Always thought "Zune" was a really appropriate name. See definition #3.

[edit] Don't click that link if you're easily offended by alternative names for a gentleman's trouser ornament.

Last edited 2011


ima747(Posted 2011) [#12]
Spaces don't work the same for me, so by my usage it's essentially dead. Firing MC then adding a space then clicking it etc. is not what I want. I want 3 spaces, all the time, accessable with control + 1-3. I want certain apps to launch in certain spaces all the time (xcode into 2 for example). Basically I want it the way it currently is. If I have to click, it now takes more time to switch spaces than to switch apps.

Further by combining it with expose in mission control I can't just see all the windows in 1 space and ONLY the windows in one space (which is what I want when I use expose). This kills expose AND further hurts spaces.

This is just my usage habbits. I'm sure some people will love the new structure but for me it GREATLY reduces my ability to juggle lots of tasks. The worst part is there could EASILY be a system panel option to run them both the old way then I'd have nothing to complain about... that's the thing that gets me the most really, why not let us use the old way if it works better for us?

Agree on calendar, etc. I don't like real world organizational tools, I like digital ones. When you try to make the digital ones into real world ones you remove the option to expand them with digital only features logically. Plus it's ugly, I like minimalist design, not pointless graphical flair.

I will never, ever, ever use launch pad. I organize my computer so I can find what I want, when I want it. Dumping everything into one place is the worst thing you could ever do unless you regularly use EVERY single application on your computer... there's not a single person in the world that does that. It's almost the same as having your application folder in your dock... only you can't remove stuff from it... and the utlities are dumped into the base folder... etc. Most people only use a VERY small handful of programs (mail, safari, Word, maybe excel. That's the majority of use on computers I see from business professionals to house wives.) why not just stick that in the dock and always have access to everything without having to go through mission control? need a lot more (like me), put the stuff you use ALL the time in the dock, and put shortcuts to the rest in a folder, then put the folder in the dock... you can find what you want when you want. Group them by task, whatever. It will be faster than launch pad to run something, easier to find what you want when you want, and it's always available without an extra click, or a button press... I'm not saying the old way is the right way, I'm just saying launch pad is worse for both minimal users AND power users...

Full screen apps I can get behind in concept. Pro for casual user is it's simpler, like an iPad. Pro for power user is a lot of power users are power users of just one thing at a time (say, final cut) so it reduces clutter and gives them more screen space. But in the real world it doesn't work right:
For casual, they won't find the go-full-screen button, or they will be affraid to click it. If you are confused by the menu bar and by windows in general enough that full screen apps are REALLY useful, you will not be able to figure out how to get into or out of them... counter productive.
For professionals: If you use one app exlusively chances are it ALREADY HAS a full screen mode. Adding it at the OS level is pointless. Further, the full screen mode apps only use 1 screen... if you're a power user on that level there's a good chance you have multiple monitors so you CAN'T use the OS level full screen mode... again pointless.
It's good for mid level users, that focus on 1 task at a time, and don't like clutter. This is admittedly a huge percentage of the user base but, most people at any level of skill are not inclined to use new features... my fiancee for example would greatly benefit from full screen in word... however she's not going to upgrade word to a version that will take advantage of it, and she's used to how she works anyway so even if word could do it now she wouldn't bother... The power of a desktop comes explicitly from NOT using modal computing, you throw that away with full screen apps... why not use a tablet instead of a laptop if you're going to use full screen apps, what advantage does a full computer have beside processing power that almost no one uses?


Qube(Posted 2011) [#13]

Spaces don't work the same for me, so by my usage it's essentially dead. Firing MC then adding a space then clicking it etc. is not what I want. I want 3 spaces, all the time, accessable with control + 1-3. I want certain apps to launch in certain spaces all the time (xcode into 2 for example). Basically I want it the way it currently is. If I have to click, it now takes more time to switch spaces than to switch apps.



You only have to do that once to add X amounts of desktops you want. Apps (the ones Ive tried) will then launch on those other desktops. You can still switch to any desktop with, in my case alt + 1,2,3 etc.

Does it not work the same for you?


Full screen apps I can get behind in concept.


Agreed that it's only handy if you are going to focus on one app for a while. I like to be able to launch apps and in and out of windows easily without the extra layer of having to bring an app out of full screen mode first. It's one feature I doubt I'll be using.

Overall though, Lion is decent and it's good to see speed has been increased and noticeable. I'll just hold off having it on my main drive until all the apps I use are Lion ready. At the moment I use Parallels 6 and although it works, OpenGL lighting is funky to say the least so I'll wait for an official version.


ima747(Posted 2011) [#14]
Speed is always good. I haven't noticed any changes but that's likely due to my rig (SSD and 8 cores = pretty damn fast to start with...).

I haven't played too extensively with MC, but I couldn't find anywhere to control the target space stuff launches into (in SL it's in the spaces control panel...). Maybe I just didn't dig far enough. But I don't want to see those spaces when I go into expose`, I only want to see the windows related to the current space I'm in. and I don't want my widgets anywhere in there either, they live in the dashboard for a reason, etc.

I use spaces and expose for 2 different things, at 2 different times. Pressing them together breaks or reduces the functionality of both and you end up with 1 messy cumbersome feature that apple wants to try to force you to use, instead of 2 streamlined ones that were totally optional...

The compatibility is the biggest issue. There's always a few fatal issues with every major revision that need working out, but it seems like lion has a lot more than usual...

More of me just ranting, I'm just so disappointed... it's like when XCode 4 launched and literally would not run for more than 15 minutes without crashing on my system... I really wanted to give it a chance. I wanted to learn the new stuff in the hopes that it would be better, but I literally couldn't because it wouldn't stay open... I want to give apple the benefit of the doubt but their software (besides iOS) at the moment all seems to miss the mark in some HUGE way (e.g. the massive backlash against Final Cut Pro X...). I get the distinct impression their real focus is 100% on iOS (understandable...) and the end result is they want to make everything more like that since they're so deep in it, when they really need to back away from each thing and look at the big picture. A dev environment that crashes for a HUGE number of devs (as documented by the forums) is fundamentally broken. A professional movie editing suite that alienates all the truly professional movie editors is not a good idea. An OS that confuses new users, alienates old users, and prevents a large portion of existing software from functioning properly needs more time before release...


Winni(Posted 2011) [#15]

Judging by how long it took to drop PPC support I don't think they'll be dropping 32 bit in the next major release... but possibly the one after.

Dropping optical is not likely to happen in the next generation or 2 either. Digital distribution just isn't strong enough, they're using Lion as a test bed for large scale releases via the app store (since it's dependent on snow leopard to have the app store, and if you can't run snow leopard you can't run lion guaranteed...). Clearly apple would love to kill off optical but it's too critical to the majority of users still (can't install windows in boot camp without it, can't install any older software without it, can't play movies without it, a huge percentage of people still use optical just to share files, everyone has something archived on an optical disc. etc.). Maybe in 2 generations this will be realistic. They're clearly not interested in supporting blu-ray so if/when blu-ray becomes a major format player then they have the perfect excuse to dump optical (as other formats with be depreciated anyway at that point).


Deprecating 32-Bit Cocoa is NOT dropping it, at least not immediately; it just means that it won't be developed any further and that it is scheduled for removal. So while I agree with you that they might not drop it with the next release, I expect them to deprecate the 32-Bit APIs in the not so distant future. And that simply means that if you want to use the newest features of the OS in your own apps, you will have to go 64-Bit. (They did the same thing with Carbon/Cocoa when Leopard was released.)

However, at this point, I'm not even convinced that there will be another installment of OS X at all. There probably is a reason why the named Lion after the 'king of beasts', and according to Jobs back when he announce OS X 10.0 Cheetah, this was going to be "the software platform for next one and a half decades" - that time is almost up. On next year's WWDC, they will probably announce a new OS that is going to merge OS X and iOS.

Optical:
In the PC-world, all of your arguments are valid. But this is Apple we're talking about.

1. You don't need an optical disk in Apple land to watch movies - you're supposed to download them from iTunes. This is part of their strategy. DVDs hurt iTunes sales, it's that simple.

2. Backing up files and sharing them via optical media is a thing of the past. Steve Jobs' last keynote made it very clear that they did not invest a couple of billion dollars in that North Carolina data center without being serious about it. They are betting the company on iCloud.

3. Apple doesn't care for Boot Camp, but you can install Windows from USB sticks and you can also install it from USB DVD drives. I also only said that they will remove optical drives from the default systems. That does not keep them from selling external USB DVD drives like they do it with the MacBook Air.

4. Apple very obviously no longer cares for customers with low bandwidth connections. iCloud requires a fast Internet connection, and Apple will leave everyone behind who doesn't have a fast land line OR a tethered iPhone. And there was already the solution for the low bandwidth situation: Get an iPhone and tether it to your Mac.

5. Apple sells a lot more notebooks than they sell desktop systems. Most of their customers probably wouldn't even notice that the DVD drive is gone.

6. Apple is always a couple of years ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to dropping what they deem obsolete technology. The dropped 3.5" floppy disk drives from the iMac G3 when everybody else thought that they were nuts and we heard the very same arguments back then about installing software, backing up data and so forth. Apple didn't care and their customers just went along with it.

I agree with your thoughts about the Mac App Store and that maybe not enough customers are using it to make the switch now. But that is exactly the reason why Apple has to make sure that customers begin using the App Store. They now FORCE their customers to sign up for App Store accounts if they want to get Lion and run the latest software. I still think that this is a move that has "Microsoft" written all over it and should have legal consequences for Apple, but from a strategic perspective, it makes perfect sense for them. "Und bist Du nicht willig, dann brauch ich Gewalt", as the German saying goes.

By the way, installing Lion after having downoaded it from the App Store is a piece of cake - you just launch the installer, the rest is done fully automatically and does not require any user interaction at all. After the setup is completed, you will have a Lion recovery partition on your Mac that you will only notice when you press Alt/Option when your Mac boots. And if you don't press Alt while booting, you will simply land on Lion's desktop. Apple could not have made this easier. It's only a bit more work for those people who want a physical installation DVD - and even then it's not a really big deal.

I will never, ever, ever use launch pad.


Yeah, I once said that too. I also once said that I won't ever use the App Store. The truth is that I begin to like Launchpad more than the out-dated dock and that I've already bought around a dozen programs from the App Store (including Xcode 4).

The compatibility is the biggest issue. There's always a few fatal issues with every major revision that need working out, but it seems like lion has a lot more than usual...



My mileage is a bit different so far - I experience less compatibility problems with Lion than I had with Leopard and Snow Leopard. Even Photoshop CS3 runs problem free on Lion, and that is something that I had not expected at all. A couple of apps do show stability problems on Lion, but even here the situation is better than it was when Leopard and Snow Leopard came out.

Xcode: You need to have the Xcode version for Lion from Apple's developer program. The old version for Snow Leopard won't work on Lion - in fact, when you've performed a clean Lion install, the old Xcode 4 won't even install.


I get the distinct impression their real focus is 100% on iOS (understandable...) and the end result is they want to make everything more like that since they're so deep in it, when they really need to back away from each thing and look at the big picture. A dev environment that crashes for a HUGE number of devs (as documented by the forums) is fundamentally broken. A professional movie editing suite that alienates all the truly professional movie editors is not a good idea. An OS that confuses new users, alienates old users, and prevents a large portion of existing software from functioning properly needs more time before release...



Actually, I think they have stepped back and looked at the big picture. And when you look at the big picture, you will see that the exact opposite of your interpretation is what they saw.

It doesn't matter if a developer system crashes, because a) developer systems always crash that's why they are developer and not production systems and b) developers have and will live with that -- users won't. Developers are just a loud horde on the Internet, but they don't count much in the mass market that is dominated where the consumers are -- and where those developers sell their software, too. Apple is not Microsoft, they never cared much for developers and never saw their target audience in developers. Apple sells user friendly products to USERS, and they've become more successful in that arena than anybody else.

It doesn't matter if 5000 professional video editors are pissed off with the FPCX when 1000000 hobbyists and so-called prosumers love it. It's a very simple numbers game to determine who washes more money in your wallet. It makes more economic sense for Apple to sell a million copies of 'iMovie Pro' then it is to sell only a few thousand licenses of Final Cut Pro to professional cutters.

You're right, Apple focuses on iOS. That's where the money is, that's where they sell most of their stuff. 15 billion sold apps alone, not counting all that other iTunes content. Do you have any further questions about where their attention should be?

Steve Jobs has declared that we have entered the "Post-PC" era and he has set the course for Apple accordingly -- and the entire rest of the industry apparently agrees with him and is following his direction.

Tablets and smart phones dominate this scenario. Soon, not many people will be using PCs and Macs anymore at home. You'll still find those machines at work places, but your average user won't be needing them anymore.

Also, if the rumors turn out to be true, we might soon see a "Pro" series of the iPad hitting the stores that is targeted at the more demanding user who needs a higher screen resolution and probably more computing and graphics power. This could also mean that the iPad - with some external input devices - might reach a level of maturity where iPad development can become self hosted. Remember, when the first Mac was under development, you still needed a Lisa to write software for the Mac. We might soon come to the point where we will no longer need a Mac for writing iOS software.

Anyway. I no longer wanted to spend time on writing about those things. But since I'm currently at work and sometimes I have to bridge some waiting time, I obviously too easily fall back into old patterns.

Just as a closing thought, the "Post-PC" era is a multi-platform era that will not be dominated by a single platform. That much is already obvious. If you don't like one platform, simply choose another for the task - there are a coupe out there to choose from, and the important apps exist for all of them. For software developers, this market will be more challenging, because the customers want your app for all available platforms, and they want those apps with a truly native look and feel. The good news is that we will see a lot of multi-platform development tools like monkey in this market, too, so it won't be that much of a big deal.


ima747(Posted 2011) [#16]
Agree, 32bit is obviously going to get axed, and it will be a phase out, rather than a hard cut. I had interpreted your previous comment as they would axe it entirely (like they're just now doing to PPC by removing rosetta). 32 bit will be rapidly depreciated, but legacy support (still being able to run 32 bit apps) will remain for quite some time. I think this is good over all. 64 bit is just better, there's no real draw back to it and plenty of advantages. But bearing in mind that most apps written now still run *could* run on 10.0. All those new bells and whistles go largely un-used generally. Pushing towards 64 bit targets is a good thing, the 32 bit intel based macs were short lived, they went 64 bit on PPC even before they switched to intel.

All your arguments re: dropping optical are totally valid from Apple's perspective. However in the real world (the one where PC's are still dominant in the market) optical drives are still quite critical. Apple will absoloutely push for killing optical quickly, but the world at large is not as ready for iCloud exclusively. They will discover the exact extent of this with Lion (I think largely the reason they're making it app store only). There's huge portions of the US with no broadband coverage at all. Then in many areas there's limited and poor selection for providers... in my area for example there are 2 providers, cable modem which is true broadband, and DSL which is 1mbit... they cost the same, and the average consumer doesn't know the difference but they'll find out REALLY quick if they try to download lion. Teathering with an iPhone isn't reasonable and apple knows it. you can't install apps beyond I believe 768mb (maybe 1gb now?) over 3G on an iPhone. if they won't let you install an app on the device then they can't expect you to do a download that is 3-6x as large... There's a HUGE number of people with broadband, but it's not a huge majority yet.

The difference between the app store and launch pad as a "never use it" feature is that the app store adds something new, launch pad re-creates an existing feature in a new way (a way that I find far less useful personally). One is use it or don't, the other is use it or use something else... if you have an alternative and you like it better there's no reason to change, and thank god for that :0)

Here's the thing about crashing a development system. Developers expect to crash their own systems, they don't expect someone else to crash them. Developers have very little patience for buggy software because they know that bugs are the result of someone screwing up or being lazy. How can you expect the results of using a tool to be better than the tool itself? Here's a simple fact. Apple would have rejected XCode 4 GM from the App Store if they had to review it due to it being unstable... it shipped with documented fatal issues, and the forums were ablaze with tons more problems and confirmation of those problems... it violated their own guidelines and they expect us to ship better apps, using their broken app? that's not reasonable.

The big picture you're referring to is actually a very small picture, mass sales. The problem with focusing exclusively on appealing to the masses to the express detriment of the "extremists" (like pro level video editors) is that the masses get bored and move on. They're not married to it, they also don't trumpet and evangelize for you like the extremists. You have to please the masses because that's the money, but you can't sacrifice your core or you kill off the future. Who will be there when all those new FCPX users want a better tool? they will follow the professionals eventually, or they will give up an move on to another hobby, or another editing suite... it's a one shot sale, you're not targeting people that will fund the next version, which would allow you to bring those users along further and grab even more...

I don't question that they should pay a lot of attention to iOS, and the money etc. That's a no brainer, but again, that's just focusing on one small thing, they're chasing a check and not creating anything new if they do that. And if you stop creating new things people care about you languish, example RIM. They had a hugely dominant market share and iOS and Android have essentially killed the company, because they got caught up with "our stuff does this!" and people said "so? we want good apps." So they tried to woo developers, their tools suck, no one makes apps for them (keep your devs happy, i.e. make your dev tools usable and not crashy...) and every news story just paints a bleaker picture, as do internal leaks etc. I don't want that to happen to apple. They've always been amazing at making user friendly products that DIDN'T sacrifice the loyalist/power users/extremists/etc. my point is that they simply seem to be letting that go, and that's a terrible idea long term.

I agree as well that we're entering into a post-PC world, meaning relatively platform agnostic. We've been going that way for years on the web. But we're not there yet. In the same way that Chrome OS is awsome, and doesn't work in the real world (again because the average user doesn't ALWAYS have internet access, let alone sufficient broadband), mac OS shouldn't be hacked into iOS shaped chunks just yet. We're in a transitional period. There is no truly dominant mobile OS. Many people can live with ONLY a web browser, but others need a 12 core moster machine. Back in the day you could buy the "best" computer, which meant the one with the highest specs. Now specs are fluid, is battery life or computing power more important to you? What about weight? need an optical drive built in? etc. I have no problem at all with the concept of adding iOS elements and concepts to Mac OS. It's great, it creates a more consisted UX and that's always a good thing. The problem is not the concept, the problem is in the real world some of those things just don't work. Or they don't work for enough people. In either case, where's the harm of following the OLD apple idea of keep it the same (leave in an option to use the old way) but make it better (add in a new option). I see configuration and customization getting throw away, and they're trying to force us to conform to their default configuration, which doesn't work. Even if you only have one hardware configuration (say an iPad, same screen, same processor etc.) people are different and do different things and need things in different places to be efficient.

I too go off, but that's why I started this thread, to have somewhere to vent :0)

Apple's concepts are, as ever, spot on. My point is they've lost sight of some critical real world things, and it hurts the product as a result. Lion would be AWSOME if I could just configure it like I like it... and there's NO reason why I shouldn't be able to... and apple USED to be good about allowing that type of configuration which makes it all the more alarming that it's missing now.

When OS X first launched I hated the columns view in the finder. Now I can't live without it. Things grow and evolve, and every user's tastes will too. But they launched OS X with column and list views just 1 click away (as they still are today). That eased the transition. Why can't I split expose and spaces in the settings? I can still split out dash board... I get the idea, they want more people using spaces so they smashed it into expose since there already was an expose button on the keyboard. That's great. But for me it breaks both features, and I should be able to fix it with 1 click, but instead I'm going to need to replace both of them with some 3rd party app when someone makes one, that duplicates the OLD functionality...

They sell more laptops than desktops. I get that. Lion is better on a laptop than a desktop, makes sense. But why make the new features NOT compatible with multiple monitors... I can come up with 3 ways to make even launch pad work on multiple monitors right off the top of my head. It wouldn't break anything on laptops, it would just be more when you have more... why even make desktops if they don't care about them as a hardware base?

one size fits the minority. Lion is an attempt at moving Mac OS towards a one size OS. The majority of people are going to find a problem with something in it. Why not let them take one step back in time on the things they don't like then everyone wins. Yay new features, yay not having to give up tools you love, yay updated subsystem... progress without sacrifice (think switching from PPC to intel), apple used to be amazing at it, now they're going the windows route of "this is new, that makes it better, use it or GTFO", which didn't go so good for vista... people by and large still prefer XP to 7... let them use the old start menu and they'd be a lot happier... not that hard...


GfK(Posted 2011) [#17]
I'm downloding Lion atm - 3.5GB on an 8MB connection so it'll be done sometime around next Easter. I currently have a nice little picture of a lion on my dock with a progress bar below it that doesn't seem to be moving...

This is the first time I've bought anything from the Mac App Store and it took me a good 10 minutes to work out that in order for a "buy" link to appear, I have to click on the price.


d-bug(Posted 2011) [#18]
@GfK
To find a better view for the progress open AppStore and click the Purchases toolbar button.

@All
I really hope that someone at Apple will have the nuts to give us back the old and better look of iCal and AddressBook. Whenever I have a look into my calendar my eyes start bleeding... This leather frame is the ugliest thing I've seen for a long, long time. I wonder if Apple kicked out the whole design-crew and let the programmers do the app themes...

...and why am I forced to have a 2GB equipped Mac for Lion? I've tried to install it on an older iMac20" with 1GB memory and it failed. Where is the difference in mem-usage to Snow Leopard?

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GfK(Posted 2011) [#19]
Right, had a little play with Lion. Some random thoughts.

1. Only cost £20! Woo!

2. Upside down mouse scrolling? What in the name of Satan's Y-fronts?!?!! Turned that bugger off STRAIGHT away!

3. Spaces are cool! Nice to spread yourself out a bit!

4. Mouse feels a LOT better to move!

5. Launchpad - nice... but I don't really see the point when you can just go to Applications.

6. MY NEW GAME WORKS IN IT! YAY!


*(Posted 2011) [#20]
Snow leopard has spaces :P


GfK(Posted 2011) [#21]
Snow leopard has spaces :P
...but up til last year I'd never used a Mac so didn't know all the ins and outs. If I don't know what something is then I don't have any desire to poke around in it to see what it does. When Lion came along, the dashboard is effectively a Space so in that respect I kind of had the concept forced on me, had a little play and began to see the usefulness of it.


ima747(Posted 2011) [#22]
interesting that you like the change in mouse handling... I'm the only one I know that noticed it and for me it's a nightmare :0) wonder if anyone else cares/likes it/hates it...


ima747(Posted 2011) [#23]
FWIW, I read somewhere you can re-skin ical etc. to make it not an atrocity on your eyes... not using lion for anything more than poking cuz I can't afford to I haven't gotten that far myself. Some googling should help.


ima747(Posted 2011) [#24]
FYI, not that petitions do much, but anyone else that is bothered by mission control, hit up

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/oldexpose


d-bug(Posted 2011) [#25]
interesting that you like the change in mouse handling... I'm the only one I know that noticed it and for me it's a nightmare :0) wonder if anyone else cares/likes it/hates it...

Turned it off directly. It's a headshot for traditional mouse-wheel junkies like me. So... 1+ for "hates it"!

5. Launchpad - nice... but I don't really see the point when you can just go to Applications.

It would be useful if you could filter some apps or even group them. My first look into LaunchPad showed me tons off windows .exe files, which came from my Parallels folder, right before all regular apps.


Who was John Galt?(Posted 2011) [#26]
I'm sure there are some good bits I'm unaware of, but it just feels like a gimmicky downgrade to me at the moment. I wouldn't mind if I could revert the features I don't like in options, but it appears I can't in many cases.

I'm tempted to revert to Snow Leopard but you have to move on eventually.


taumel(Posted 2011) [#27]
Beeing a lion, i primary like the name but i also would have hoped for something better. It has a few nice things but too many features&gimmicks i simply don't need. Secondly in this early state there is no reason to install it on my machine.


Winni(Posted 2011) [#28]
interesting that you like the change in mouse handling... I'm the only one I know that noticed it and for me it's a nightmare :0) wonder if anyone else cares/likes it/hates it...


It was the first thing that I switched off after I installed Lion. That change in the mouse behavior comes at least twenty years too late for me, I doubt I could ever get used to it. But as long as it can turned off, I don't really care.


taumel(Posted 2011) [#29]
After a few years with the iPodTouch, iPhone and iPad i've come to the conclusion that i still need a mouse and a keyboard as otherwise things get more complicate and my fingers hurt all the day. So whilst i see a bright future for tablet devices and the other gadgets i doubt a iPhone/iPad like devices only near future as well.

Like multitouch isn't the answer for all gaming genres, so aren't these devices for the rest of your life. Not in this and not in the next generation(s). Before something like this happens, it needs much better devices, especially it needs much better interfaces.

And the iCloud won't go anywhere soon because many people don't trust these services, at least yet. Some technologies are moving faster forward than people are willing/able to change, beside of all the technical issues which can arise. Quite funny: If you're living in germany one of the best things you can get is a 5GB flatrate (including speed option) for iPhone tethering, now imagine how far you can go with this and how well it fits into an iCloud environment for common people.

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Winni(Posted 2011) [#30]
And the iCloud won't go anywhere soon because many people don't trust these services, at least yet.


I'm not so sure about that. A lot of what iCloud does are services that Android users had to use from the very beginning to get their Android devices activated and online. Google apps also is rather successful, so the idea of moving all apps "to the cloud" is neither new nor untested. Apple is just late to the party and tries to add some seemingly fresh color to the mix.

And seeing that the target audience for iOS is the same audience that uses Facebook daily and thus rather obviously doesn't care at all about the safety of their data, the typical iCloud users won't have any second thoughts about iCloud at all. Rather the opposite: People will trust Apple more than they trust themselves to backup their data.

However, I think the most interesting feature of iCloud is actually related to iTunes: iTunes Match. This thing will make even illegally downloaded music legal by paying a minimal subscription fee to Apple. You'll even keep the "matched" music when you cancel the subscription afterwards, and that's a rather big thing for a lot of people.

But there are two rather trivial reasons why iCloud simply cannot fail: The core services are FREE and they will become MANDATORY for all iOS users once iOS 5 is being shipped.

Data flatrate limitations might be an issue TODAY, but Apple, Google and all the others are investing in and building software and devices for the future, and the carriers will have to move along or their customers will jump ship. LTE is coming and bringing mobile Internet to the next level.

Or let's simply put it this way: You don't invest a couple of BILLIONS of dollars into high-end data centers and own cloud software when you are not absolutely convinced that a product like iCloud will take off eventually. And it's also safe to assume that with the release of iOS 5 and the next generation of iOS devices, Apple will also announce that their partnering carriers are offering compatible contracts on the same day.


taumel(Posted 2011) [#31]
Oh the history is full of investments which didn't pay out. Of course they are investing into the future but in my opinion a large part of the people aren't and the rest of the infrastructure isn't ready for it yet, you can't just connect this easy from everywhere to the net. Beside of this i'm not convinced why i personally should return to a client-server-model.

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Brucey(Posted 2011) [#32]
Hmmm... buttons are less curvy...

Migration Assistant. Well, it seems to kind of mostly work. I did my Applications, and that generally seems all good. My user folder I cp'd onto a firewire drive, then cp'd it onto the new machine. It appears to have miraculously picked up most of my settings, and most apps appear to work still.
Love the new TTS voices :-)


Pete Carter(Posted 2011) [#33]
I don't like it. Its like they want to make osx into a os for the simple of brain. All this launch pad crap thats just tacked on is rubbish, it seems a bit quicker but nothing mind blowing plus it broke half my software until they update them anyway.


okee(Posted 2011) [#34]
Can the upgrade be used to do a fresh install ?
i.e. burn it to dvd, wipe the hard drive and install

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Brucey(Posted 2011) [#35]
Most things are working for me - new machine with all my old stuff copied over from 10.6.

I've even installed XCode 3.2.6 (sdk 10.5 / gcc 4.0) for some BlitzMax stuff :-)

Don't use mission control or launch pad. Don't have a use for them.

Got my NAS working after a firmware update.

Aperture needs a fix to see that the network drive is really there, but it's workaroundable for now.

Generally it is running well on an 2.7ghz i7 with 8gig of RAM.


Brucey(Posted 2011) [#36]
This is somewhat tedious...

So, I am typing into the IDE : bbMemFree(p)

It seems, by default, certain key sequences are interpreted on the fly, and the (p) transmorgifies into the '℗' character (a P inside a circle).

It also seems to work for (c) and (r).

Sure I can tell it not to do it, but it might be useful elsewhere...


d-bug(Posted 2011) [#37]
It also works with "..." (without the quotes)


D4NM4N(Posted 2011) [#38]
A friend of mine has upgraded and he is really angry because apparently they have dropped the rosetta support (ppc) so now he has to try and find a way of running a load of apps that cost a packet (or are now irreplacable).


Winni(Posted 2011) [#39]
A friend of mine has upgraded and he is really angry because apparently they have dropped the rosetta support (ppc) so now he has to try and find a way of running a load of apps that cost a packet (or are now irreplacable).


Well, he should have informed himself before upgrading to Lion. It was announced long ahead of the release that Lion would require a 64-Bit Intel CPU and that Rosetta was no longer supported. Also, Apple's Java VM is no longer part of the default installation - Lion downloads a Java VM only when an application requires it. Those were COMMUNICATED changes and shouldn't have hit anybody by surprise.

If he still has so many old PPC-only apps, then he should downgrade to Snow Leopard -- OR -- install Snow Leopard in a virtual machine to run those old PPC apps. The OS X client license now allows virtualization on Apple hardware.


D4NM4N(Posted 2011) [#40]
Well. you know how it is, who reads "communications" especially in "normal user" world :D

I am sure someone will come u with an emulator... they kind of have to because downgrading is really not the apple users cup of tea now is it.

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taumel(Posted 2011) [#41]
I think Snow Leopard is the best OSX version so far. I wonder what's coming next after Lion.


Winni(Posted 2011) [#42]
I think Snow Leopard is the best OSX version so far. I wonder what's coming next after Lion.


Mountain Lion?

My bet is that there won't be another version of OS X as we know it. They will now merge iOS and OS X, and since this is Apple, that transition will be in favor of iOS with all its restrictions. But I doubt that we will hear anything official before next year's WWDC.


taumel(Posted 2011) [#43]
Hmm, i like the iOS/iPad2 for what it is, although i obviously would welcome more freedom here and there. It's kind of hard to imagine an pleasing iOS based OS you can use in a broad general way, apart from use cases Apple has in mind. Oh well, we'll see...


Winni(Posted 2011) [#44]
The thing is that already with the introduction of the original Macintosh back in 1984, Apple had stopped creating systems that were supposed to be used in a broad general way. The original Mac was a closed system and its main use case was what could be called Desktop Publishing (with MacWrite and MacPaint). It was not surprising that professional writers were - and still are - crazy for Macs.

iOS devices are NOT aimed at the stereotypical geek or PC hacker or power user and the iPad is supposed to be THE computer "for the rest of us". Even Wozniak said that he and the other engineers at Apple were not part of the target audience for that device. And seeing how successful iOS gadgets are, it seems that the audience for those restricted gadgets is huge - and for Apple, it's definitely bigger than the market for a "real" computer like the Mac.

Freedom is also important for me - that's why I sold my iPhone and bought a Samsung Galaxy S2 instead. And should I decide to buy a tablet again, it will also be an Android tablet and not an iPad. Android treats me as an adult and does not get in my way, it simply feels better for me to use an Android device. My next notebook and desktop, however, will be Macs again. I have enough dealings with Linux and Windows at work, and I don't see either as a viable option for my personal needs. I'd still love to use Linux exclusively, but the lack of GOOD and USABLE software there still keeps me in commercial land. (No, The GIMP does NOT replace Photoshop, and no, RawTherapee and DigiKam are NO substitutes for Aperture and there are also no adequate replacements for Scrivener, ecto or Pulp, just to name a few. At least Scrivener will get a Linux version some day, but that's not enough to sell me on the Linux desktop.)


taumel(Posted 2011) [#45]
I think the Mac Book Pro and the iPad2 are the best devices i used since a long time but i really don't want to be imprisioned on iOS.


ima747(Posted 2011) [#46]
I love iOS, but it is not a viable basis for a desktop OS for me. The iOS like changes in lion are ignorable to me, but when (inevitably) they push it much further it removes MacOS from a true desktop OS comperable to Windows/Unix/Linux. This is however, I fully admit, my perspective. As such an OS that is crippled to my eyes for desktop use (like Chrome OS, or an iOS structured MacOS) may have HUGE consumer appeal. I trust apple to make the right decisions for them. However with Lion, they've taken the first step away from their decisions being right for me. The ONLY thing in Lion I have ANY interest in is iCloud compatibility which could (and should) be supported under Snow Leopard. Not a single other new feature impacts me in any positive way, and as outlined in my rants at the top of this thread, many of them cripple my productivity (which is why I haven't switched, and don't plan to on my primary machine any time soon, though I do acknowledge it is inevitable).

I understand lion. I see the benefits. The problem is they don't apply to me, and Apple forgot some things that I feel in the past they wouldn't have overlooked (for me, most notably, the ability to shit can Mission control with 1 check box in preferences and keep using the old services...). They remembered that people might not want to learn that their mouse is now backwards. They remembered that people might want to be able to see scroll bar positions. Simple check box, revert to the old way (or at least close to it), everyone wins. When apple introduced OS X they pushed the tiered folder view over the traditional mac multi-window views, but they left a button at the top of every finder window for you to make up your own mind. Everyone (like me) that adopted the new standard goes "wow this saves me so much time!" and everyone (like statistically about 2/3 of users according to a poll I saw not too long ago) can choose either icon or list views and it works just like it did in Mac OS 7 and they go "great! all this new power and I don't have to change how I do things"...

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JoshK(Posted 2012) [#47]
A little late, but I LOVE LION!!!

The mail app is really good now. The message list on the left and message view on the right is a better allocation of space, similar to Outlook. The way it separates mail accounts is simple and powerful. It keeps things separate when you just want to read personal or work email, but you can always view all mailboxes at once. The app doesn't have too many buttons and features, and just does email really well.

Moving between desktops with four fingers on the trackpad is very efficient and natural. I didn't really "get" it at first, but after a while I realized the best way to use Lion is to just leave iTunes, iPhoto, Cornerstone, Mail, Xcode, etc. all open, all the time, each in a fullscreen window, and swipe back and forth between them. My productivity feels a lot higher with this layout.

OpenGL 3.2 is on Mac, and the drivers are good. Deferred rendering on Mac is now possible.

iCloud mail is the best ever. It's got the instant syncing of Gmail, but it's fast and responsive because it uses a local client, not a web interface. Safari bookmarks are synced, so the instant I bookmark something on my iMac, it's available on my iPhone and iPad. Notes are synced between the three as well.

You can drag and resize a window from any side or corner, which fixes a problem that annoyed me when I first started using Mac.

My only criticisms is Finder hasn't improved, and could still be a lot better. Copying a folder to another overwrites the whole folder (deletes everything that previously existed), the search sucks, and you should be able to view the properties of multiple files at once.

Also, Launchpad is stupid and doesn't feel like a fully-developed idea. It should have never made it out in the final product.

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D4NM4N(Posted 2012) [#48]
I must admit Finder is the primary thing i strongly dislike about OSX. Other than that it is quite a nice OS.

However there are a few things that i do that I just cannot do on it quickly enough (so end up using Linux or windows)

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Qube(Posted 2012) [#49]

Copying a folder to another overwrites the whole folder (deletes everything that previously existed)



That's incorrect. In Lion you now get the option to "merge" when copying folders which have the same name.


Winni(Posted 2012) [#50]
Is anybody else here having trouble with the new 10.7.3 update? After I've installed the Combo update, Lion randomly disconnects my external USB hard disks - preferably when I'm copying files to them - and my Windows notebook can no longer write to SMB shares on my Mac, which is supposedly something that Apple claimed to have improved with 10.7.3. So in short, at least for me and my iMac, the new update is a QA disaster that should never have seen the light of day.


SystemError51(Posted 2012) [#51]
Yeah well as long as Apple is not fixing the killer bug for me, I ain't using any Mac any time soon.

The killer bug for me is that, while I can connect an external display (say TV) to it, I won't be able to watch things on it full-screen. Not possible. Lion will literally not let you do it. Instead on the TV (which is 40 inch and on which you actually want to watch stuff) you'll see the iPad black linen pattern and [ANY] video player jumps back to the iMac, and plays it in full screen on that display.

Not cool, Apple, not cool. Was working great in Snow Leopard but you just HAD to remove that.

Mission Control is a complete clusterfuck, but I could have lived with it. But not letting me watch anime/shows on my TV is pretty much a killer.