DISSAPERING GEOMETRY in W98SE -compatibity prob
Archives Forums/Blitz3D Bug Reports/DISSAPERING GEOMETRY in W98SE -compatibity prob
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| Apparently on some older systems running Windows 98SE (which the product is listed as being compatible with), when a certain number of polygons in a model that is loaded (even native .b3d files) is reached, issues begin to occur where polygons are simply dropped in a seemingly arbitrary fashion and are never rendered again - not a clipping or pivot issue. The problem seems exacerbated by smaller poly counts when multiple models are loaded. Other new OS's do not seem to have the same issue. This is true of the latest edition update (1.06) Windows 98 SE P4 3.4Ghz Gigabyte 8VM800 1GB NVidia FX5500 AGP 256MB DirectX 9.0C Source code? I can provide it, but-- Simply create a large .b3d file or .x file with more than 140K polygons in it, and you would see the result with LoadAnimMesh. And--- Let's not forget that a 256x256 terrainmap has 131072 polygons in it as well, so forget tri and vert limits folks. DirectX itself doesn't place such ceilings on models and loads up to MEMORY LIMITS. I have proof elsewhere on my ANCIENT system. Last edited 2012 |
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| Have you tested the drivers? Could as well be a driver problem. Try changing camera ranges (near not too small, far not too far - try with something like 1, 1000 to see if the problem persists.) Also, If I remember well b3d limit is the same as 3ds - 65k polygons. It has to do with the file format, not DX or memory restrictions. Anyway - a single mesh with 140k polygons - on what I assume is a very old gfx card (win98? Should be running a geforce 3-4 at best; if it's Intel or VIA, then forget about it!) - it will be problematic. |
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| CLEARLY VERIFIED now as OS related. Please read HW specs above. Card is AGP. Files all load/work/run right under XP SP3. I would like to offer my services as a bug tester with regards to this SPECIFIC BUG, and a Jan 2013 $200 paypal incentive to have the problem removed for my disabled friend who is very isolated in this matter and wants to finish his bucket list. Please pass the word to relevant individuals who can help us since this old but awesome application is looking more and more like his only option. Thank you all! Last edited 2012 |
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| Pretty sure this WILL require an update. Other systems have no trouble because they are XP or better. |
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| Instead of spamming the forum up with it and offering to pay $200 to get a 12 year old bit of software to play nice on a 15 year old OS, why not just buy a Windows 7 licence? It'll be cheaper. Because the truth is, nobody, quite rightly, gives a flying toss about Win98 any more. This parrot is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late parrot. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch he would be pushing up the daisies. Its metabolical processes are of interest only to historians. It's hopped off the twig. It's shuffled off this mortal curl. It's run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This.... is an ex-parrot. Capiche? |
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| Pretty sure this WILL require an update. Other systems have no trouble because they are XP or better. Good luck trying to get Microsoft to issue an update to Windows 98. I doubt they would be interested in your $200. You might need six more zeros at the end to get the interest of Microsoft. Since this works fine on XP, you have confirmed this is a Windows 98 issue and not an issue with B3D which would be using the same version of DX on both systems. |
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| Ya know... I'm not going to dain to respond to your negativity during this holliday season when I am trying to help someone of limited capability on his medical computer. So if you have more bashing, don't bother. |
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| You might want to try BMax and miniB3D as it is OpenGL based and should run on 98 with no issues... It should be fairly easy to port the code as it is supposed to be very close to B3D syntax wise... |
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| Blitzmax is not compatible with win98, for reasons which i can't remember at the moment. Something to do with unicode, if memory serves. |
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| Well, scratch my previous suggestion then. |
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| Thanks for trying guys, at least my purchase copy does actually run, even if there is a problem that kind of cripples it's capabilities. He really likes the aplication you know. We will just have to wait and see if -is it Mark?- is interested in a small bugfix at all and hope for the best. |
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| From the Blitzmax versions.txt file: ***** 1.34 Release ***** ::::: IMPORTANT ::::: This will be the last release to support Win95/98/ME. in other words, windows 98 hasn't been supported since 14 versions ago... Anyway, given that windows 98 is 15 years old now and any PC sold since 2002 would have come with windows XP, the hardware itself is likely ancient as well, with a bottom-of-the-barrel videocard. My guess is that the most likely problem here is a horrendous videocard / video card drivers, not windows 98 itself. Unless you have identical hardware with windows XP that does NOT show this bug, I'd think it';s much more likely that it's the hardware or video drivers that are at fault than the OS itself. |
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| WOW, thank you xlsior. I have tried this with identical hardware, but was unaware of this document. Perhaps if I attempt this with the older version... I still leave my offer wide open, even though it would seem hardly worth the effort, I know. |
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| but was unaware of this document. What he quoted does NOT apply to B3D.Windows 98 is old and dead. Sadly, with B3D being a legacy product itself, it is not fully compatible with anything after XP, so you will run into obscure issues, that often can't be worked around. This is the way it is when you use legacy products, whether the legacy product be an OS or a development tool/programming language. |
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| What he quoted does NOT apply to B3D. Ack, sorry -- didn't realize this was a B3D thread. :-? |
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| I say it again: try changing the drivers (newer or older) and try playing with camera ranges. I had disappearing stuff before, exactly because of a very small near (0.01) and a very big far (10000) - which made things get rendered pretty borked on *some* hardware. It happens because of the Z-Buffer: if you don't have enought resolution, things get rendered in the wrong order, and then artifacts and problems arise. As for the drivers, been a long time since DX7 was abandoned by Microsoft, even longer by card manufacturers. So you're bound to find some problems with cards (even an FX5500) because DX7 and it's fixed function pipeline was being deprecated in favor of the programmable pipeline. If it works on XP onwards, but not on Win98 - I can bet it's something driver or hardware related - not to do with Blitz3D itself. If nothing works, then I guess you'll have to break those big models into smaller ones. And btw: Terrains aren't a good reference for "rendering a lot of polygons" - terrains are basically a 2D grayscale bitmap stored in memory, and only the visible, on screen part is rendered. Last edited 2012 |
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| Slotman, I very much appreciate your help, so I try to briefly address your suggestions here. I did play with the camera ranges with no visible change of any kind. I will keep this tip in mind. I did try breaking the scene up into -up to- many smaller parts, to no avail. As to the card drivers. Not sure what to do there. Lastly, terrains can be when viewed from above. |
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| As to the card drivers. Not sure what to do there. Good chance that you're simply out of luck: The operating system, video API (DX) and hardware drivers are all past their manufactuere's end-of-life, and no longer supported by any of them. |
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| Unless you have identical hardware with windows XP that does NOT show this bug, I'd think it';s much more likely that it's the hardware or video drivers that are at fault than the OS itself. Using same hardware with a different OS is not a reliable way to determine if the OS is at fault. The drivers for the hardware will be different and so you can not rule out the hardware's drivers or the hardware itself by doing this. But I agree, it is more likely to be the drivers/hardware causing the problem. Mikorians, I presume you meant Windows 98ME as there is no SE version but have you tried using a virtual machine to emulate a PC running Windows 98ME and enable you to test the software on your machine? Also, why is your friend using Windows 98ME? The ME version was so full of bugs it was useless. If you can, try going back to plain old Windows 98 on the machine your friend is using. It was far more stable than ME and might make a difference. If you can not get a copy of Windows 98 I might be able to help if you private message me :) And after reading this thread, I think Gfk should be ashamed for his very rude attitude and learn what spamming really is! Asking a question then adding to it is not spamming. Gfk, if you can't say anything helpful in a forum such as this, don't say anything at all. Many of us here would probably say this, but I'd be very happy to help for free, no need to offer $200 :) Last edited 2012 Last edited 2012 |
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| Looking at the specs of the machine you gave, if the gfx card is able to support DirectX 9.0c then it should not have problems with Blitz3D. It sounds like an issue with the card's drivers and DirectX 7 that Blitz3D uses, more specifically Direct3D 7. Most video card manufacturers do not support Windows 98SE or earlier versions of Windows in their latest updates of drivers. Here are the last version of drivers that NVidia have for that card for Windows 98/Me: http://www.nvidia.com/object/win9x_81.98.html See if that helps at all. Last edited 2012 |
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| Win 98SE = Windows 98 Second Edition. There is no Win 98ME, it's Win ME. Win ME was awful, Win 98 SE (or OSR2) was way better and more stable than ME - so I don't think that's the issue. I've used B3D a lot on win98SE, without any issues whatsoever. Mikorians: get the "trial" version of this game: http://www.icongames.com.br/snailracers-en.htm It's a game I've made with B3D - on a Win98SE machine. If it has the "disappearing geometry" problem, you can be sure it's a hardware/driver problem. If it works normally, then it's something on the meshes or in the code. |
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| Win 98SE = Windows 98 Second Edition. There is no Win 98ME, it's Win ME. Win ME was awful, Win 98 SE (or OSR2) was way better and more stable than ME - so I don't think that's the issue. You are quite right SLotman, thanks for correcting me :) They were so long ago that it's hard to remember all the details! LOL |
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| Apparently on some older systems running Windows 98SE (which the product is listed as being compatible with), when a certain number of polygons in a model that is loaded (even native .b3d files) is reached, issues begin to occur where polygons are simply dropped in a seemingly arbitrary fashion and are never rendered again - not a clipping or pivot issue. You have run into the rendering problem that is on some video cards, due to limitations of the cards itself. I have had the same problem rendering a model in 98SE (albeit many years ago) with over 17000 vertices. On my machine it looked like the triangles on the model were all messed up with missing triangles etc. You do realise that Blitz3d has a surface triangle limit of about 17000 triangles per surface anything over this and you can get strange results on some video cards, the way around it is when your getting near that limit just create a new surface and continue creating tris on that until that gets to 17k tris then repeat. Its not a bug with Blitz3d as such more of a limitation with Windows 98SE and DX7 If that is the problem you are having you will have a few alternatives that may help: 1) break up bigger models into smaller chunks and render them instead. 2) get new video card drivers if any exist (this maybe a chicken and egg situation as the graphics card is going to be at least ten years old) 3) Install at least Windows XP on the machine, if its of a reasonable specification then it should be ok. |
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| Thank you! Someone who has had the problem and knows the reason! We were finally able to provide a hardware solution for the man (at great expense), but if there is an interest, the bug may be pursued further if desired... If anybody's curious. |
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